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What's Next For FRA?  
User currently offlineEWROwznj00 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (8 years 11 months 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 2977 times:

I did a search but didn't find anything, so forgive me if it's been discussed.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051230/ap_on_re_eu/germany_us_air_base

Now that the base is going to be turned over to the Fraport authorities, what plans do they have in store for expansion there? I think I read on here that another runway would be built, along with more terminals. It's a pretty large area that is going to be turned over so they can probably do a lot with it. Does anyone have any info on this? Thanks!

16 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineSabena332 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (8 years 11 months 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 2950 times:

Terminal 3 is planned on the ex USAF base, I think it will be exclusive for Lufthansa and it's partner airlines (Star Alliance).

Patrick


User currently offlineGr8Circle From Canada, joined Dec 2005, 3124 posts, RR: 4
Reply 2, posted (8 years 11 months 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 2926 times:

Will the new terminal 3 have some sort of underground connection with the exisiting terminals 1 and 2?

Also, does FRA really need a fourth runway...?

[Edited 2005-12-30 20:00:34]

User currently offlineHT From Germany, joined May 2005, 6525 posts, RR: 23
Reply 3, posted (8 years 11 months 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 2920 times:

Quoting Sabena332 (Reply 1):
Terminal 3 is planned on the ex USAF base, I think it will be exclusive for Lufthansa and it's partner airlines (Star Alliance).

T3: okay, but for LH/*A ? Sofar I´ve only seen statements that LH/*A will stay in T1 ... (speculation by me: maybe including a possible "takeover" of T2)
-HT



Carpe diem ! Life is too short to waste your time ! Keep in mind, that today is the first day of the rest of your life !
User currently offlineSabena332 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (8 years 11 months 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 2912 times:

Quoting HT (Reply 3):
Sofar I´ve only seen statements that LH/*A will stay in T1 ...

I think I heard (or read) somewhere that LH and the other Star Alliance airlines will move to T3 but I am not 100% sure thus I wrote "I think".

Patrick


User currently offlineHT From Germany, joined May 2005, 6525 posts, RR: 23
Reply 5, posted (8 years 11 months 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 2912 times:

Quoting Gr8Circle (Reply 2):
Also, does FRA really need a fourth runway...?

Yes. The current rate of arrivals is far too low compared to asked for slots.

Quoting Gr8Circle (Reply 2):
Will the new terminal 3 have some sort of underground connection with the exisiting terminals 1 and 2?

AFAIK the Sky Train will be the link (which will take quite some time to do the journey).
Also, T3 will get its own exit from Motorway A5.
-HT



Carpe diem ! Life is too short to waste your time ! Keep in mind, that today is the first day of the rest of your life !
User currently offlineHT From Germany, joined May 2005, 6525 posts, RR: 23
Reply 6, posted (8 years 11 months 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 2887 times:

Quoting HT (Reply 3):
Sofar I´ve only seen statements that LH/*A will stay in T1 ... (speculation by me: maybe including a possible "takeover" of T2)

some reasons, why LH probably will stay in T1 (and T2 ????):
  • T1-Pier A´s extension has been tailormade for LH.
  • LH is remodelling some B-gates in order to accomodate the A380.
  • The rail infrastructure (both stations) are concentrated around T1; I think its very unlikely that T3 will get a equally good rail access.
  • LH has opened its First Class "Terminal" only recently.
  • Apartform the new A380 maintenance hangars, LH´s maintenance is located on the north side of FRA; this would mean a lot of lengthy tows from that area to T3 and AFAIK there´s a limitation on heigth of a/c passing under a/c approaching 25R (sorry I always forget the denominator of the taxiway running in parallel to the motorway A5).


What I can envision, is the following:
- Charter traffic (like HF, AB, LT) moves from T1 and T2 to T3.
- Carriers that do not have ties to an Alliance move to T3.
- With *A having a need for even more a/c stands at the terminals, I could think of that *A will take over D-gates ... - As a result/as a precondition, OneWorld and/or SkyTeam will move to T3, too.

Just my 0,02 EUR.
-HT

EDIT:
a tread from earlier this year for FRA T3 (but I still think there was a another one): Terminal 3 Exhibition At FRA (by Tobi3334 Jul 3 2005 in Civil Aviation)

[Edited 2005-12-30 20:25:11]

EDIT2: a second thread with info in it: The USAF Base At Frankfurt Main (by TS-IOR Oct 21 2005 in Civil Aviation)

[Edited 2005-12-30 20:41:43]


Carpe diem ! Life is too short to waste your time ! Keep in mind, that today is the first day of the rest of your life !
User currently offlineFraT From Germany, joined Sep 2003, 1107 posts, RR: 1
Reply 7, posted (8 years 11 months 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 2812 times:

I also think, that LH and Star will stay in T1. From the point, HT mentioned the one regarding the railway stations is the most important one.
I think, that T1 will become a pure Star Terminal. Right now, there are some other carriers like AA operating from there. T2 has capacity so they could move all non Star Airlines there and the Charter carriers to T3. Or they do it the other way round and use T2 as a charter Terminal although I doubt this.


User currently offlineEWROwznj00 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (8 years 11 months 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 2809 times:

HT,

Seeing as how this is very early in any stages, those plans can change. How many movements does Frankfurt see per day, and how much does Fraport want to see it to meet demand? It seems placing a terminal on the other side of the airport may make connecting to different flights difficult, unless airlines are grouped in the terminals like Star, OneWorld, etc. Would FRA even need a separate terminal for OneWorld or SkyTeam?


User currently offlineHT From Germany, joined May 2005, 6525 posts, RR: 23
Reply 9, posted (8 years 11 months 4 days ago) and read 2782 times:

Quoting EWROwznj00 (Reply 8):
How many movements does Frankfurt see per day,

After the 4. runway (for landings only, though from a technical point of view it will be long enough to see anything up to a B737/A321 take off), runway-capacity is said to increase from 80 to 120 per hour.
For the current situation one has to take into account, that simultaneous landing on 25L and R are not possible (they are too close together); the trick with a displaced threshold for landings on 25L (which then is referred to as 26L) can increase capacity only by a marginal (but very valuable) number.
Runway 18 is for departures only.

Quoting EWROwznj00 (Reply 8):
how much does Fraport want to see it to meet demand?

As much as possible, as FRA is already loosing out to other airports: AMS and CDG on one hand and MUC on the other hand.

Quoting EWROwznj00 (Reply 8):
Would FRA even need a separate terminal for OneWorld or SkyTeam?

Even though LH is Fraport´s most important customer, Fraport surely does want to keep any other traffic they can get. Therefore, offering OneWorld and/or SkyTeam adequate facilities is a logical thing - well, they DO have adequate facilities at FRA right now, but if in any case, LH wants to spread outfrom T1 to T2, this would mean that OneWorld and/or SkyTeam would have to move out of there, leaving the future T3 as the only option.
OTOH, access to the railway system will be less good from T3 compared to T2 (meaning a longer ride on the SkyTrain), so it might become hard for FRAPORT to move any airline to that terminal (maybe they will alter the handling charges a bit ...).
Just speculation here; no confirmations !
-HT



Carpe diem ! Life is too short to waste your time ! Keep in mind, that today is the first day of the rest of your life !
User currently offlineJoFMO From Germany, joined Jul 2004, 2211 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (8 years 11 months 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 2729 times:

You also have to see that ferrying between Runway4 and T3 could easily need up to 20 minutes. You either have to go the whole way around to two parallel runways or cross them in the middle.
LH with it's big amount of small planes in FRA will be a prime user for the new 4th runway. So they can't move it's operation to T3.


User currently offlineEWROwznj00 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (8 years 11 months 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 2642 times:

According to that plan on the link HT provided, the new runway is placed in, what seems to me, kind of "out there" place. How long is this runway supposed to be, and what need will it serve? Maybe if it were placed parallel to RWY18 it could give better access to the new and current terminals.

Quick question, for those who has been through AMS; the outer most runway, I think 18L is very far off. How much of a taxi time does it take to reach from there to the main terminal? I was on a Northwest flight from AMS to EWR in 2003 and we took off on 18C(?), and that took a bit to get to also. Please forgive my lack of memory of the numbers and orientation, but I do remember we had to cross the highway to get to the runway to take off.

Quoting HT (Reply 9):
For the current situation one has to take into account, that simultaneous landing on 25L and R are not possible (they are too close together); the trick with a displaced threshold for landings on 25L (which then is referred to as 26L) can increase capacity only by a marginal (but very valuable) number.

I saw that happen there. It was quiet a site to watch the planes seem to just line up next to each other, then one pulled back a bit. What is the distance needed between the runways for simultaneous landings? And what is the distance between the 25L/R?


User currently offlineSabena332 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (8 years 11 months 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 2635 times:

Quoting FraT (Reply 7):
I also think, that LH and Star will stay in T1. From the point, HT mentioned the one regarding the railway stations is the most important one.

I agree, good points which speak for a stay of LH in T1.

Patrick


User currently offlineHT From Germany, joined May 2005, 6525 posts, RR: 23
Reply 13, posted (8 years 11 months 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 2565 times:

Quoting EWROwznj00 (Reply 11):
Quick question, for those who has been through AMS; the outer most runway, I think 18L is very far off. How much of a taxi time does it take to reach from there to the main terminal?

IIRC, I´ve seen statements here on A.net with "up to 30 minutes" (depending on gate assignment), though usually the trip is a bit shorter (about 10-15 min).

Quoting EWROwznj00 (Reply 11):
What is the distance needed between the runways for simultaneous landings?

IIRC the exact figure varies a bit with the local legislation, but figure around 1500 meters being a suitable distance between two runways to allow for independent & simultaneous ops.

Quoting EWROwznj00 (Reply 11):
And what is the distance between the 25L/R?

I lack the exact figure, but there´s not much more space left than putting a taxiway in between those two runways. "200-250 meters" would be my estimate.

Quoting EWROwznj00 (Reply 11):
How long is this runway supposed to be, and what need will it serve?

2800 meters; it will be used for landings only (although pretty many a/c could also takeoff from such a runway). see also:
http://www.ausbau.fraport.com/cms/default/rubrik/6/6964.projects.htm

Quoting EWROwznj00 (Reply 11):
Maybe if it were placed parallel to RWY18 it could give better access to the new and current terminals.

A parallel runway to 18 would not be usable for landings (just like runway 18) as some hills to the north do not allow for approaches from the north.
Therefore, runway 18 has only one designation "18" as it is only used for departures into that direction (and at 4500 meters this one is quite long !).
FRA´s current problem is "getting the a/c onto the ground" rather than "getting them into the air". Therefore, additional runway capacity is urgently needed for arrivals.
-HT



Carpe diem ! Life is too short to waste your time ! Keep in mind, that today is the first day of the rest of your life !
User currently offlineFRAspotter From United States of America, joined May 2004, 2360 posts, RR: 9
Reply 14, posted (8 years 11 months 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 2538 times:

Do they have a date on when they will start work on terminal 3? Or when they will start tearing down many of the buildings on ex. Rhein Main AFB?


"Drunk drivers run stop signs. Stoners wait for them to turn green."
User currently offlineEWROwznj00 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (8 years 11 months 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 2527 times:

Thanks so much for all the info! I really like FRA as an airport and hope to see it grow and only become better. I remember back in 1991 when I had to take a bus to/from two of my flights(LH EWR-FRA and back on an A310). It was cold and snowy both times! At least this time all my flights were able to park directly at the terminal.

User currently offlineHT From Germany, joined May 2005, 6525 posts, RR: 23
Reply 16, posted (8 years 11 months 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 2457 times:

Quoting EWROwznj00 (Reply 15):
I remember back in 1991 when I had to take a bus to/from two of my flights(LH EWR-FRA and back on an A310). It was cold and snowy both times! At least this time all my flights were able to park directly at the terminal.

Generally speaking, all longhaul flights use positions at terminals, though I´ve experienced it arriving on UA that our gate position was blocked and subsequently we used aremote standfor our B772.

Flights in RJ´s always use remote stands, while for LH-mainline shorthaul it depends on availability of gate positions (a shorthaul LH-flight rarely uses the very same gate for two days in a row)

Quoting FRAspotter (Reply 14):
Do they have a date on when they will start work on terminal 3? Or when they will start tearing down many of the buildings on ex. Rhein Main AFB?

I´ve seen no words for this yet; also completion dates are not in my mind. However http://www.fraport.com/cms/capacity_...2/2834.new_terminal_3_and_a380.htm states that everything should be in place by 2015, with the new runway (apparently designated 07N/25N) becoming operational in 2009.
-HT



Carpe diem ! Life is too short to waste your time ! Keep in mind, that today is the first day of the rest of your life !
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