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Why Isn't Southwest The Industry Model?  
User currently offlineMatt D From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 9502 posts, RR: 46
Posted (14 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 2860 times:

I am not referring just to low fares and no frills. I am talking about how you run the airline. Look at how they treat their employees. Like humans, not just numbers. I have read and heard time and time again that Southwest is one of the best places to work. It is not an overly authoritarian corporate culture. It also reflects in their customer service, which also is consistently ranked among the highest. And they are the airline with the consistently lowest turnover and highest profit margin. They have a proven formula for success.
So, why don't the other airlines operate this way? Why is it that in the face of this prosperity that so many other airlines are getting hit with potential and actual strikes so often?
Continental is the only other one I can think of that has gone from one extreme to the other. When Lorenzo was around, he ruled with an iron fist (as so many others do). It was a shitty airline that was in bankruptcy in both financial and employee/customer morale. Having a dictatorship management scheme was a failure. Then Bethune came along, and well...the rest is history....
So again.....
Why haven't the others followed? Are the egos in the airline world that big that they are blind to success? Is having power and control in the short term more important than conceding some of that power, and treating your workers with respect and making a killing financially in the long term?
Apparently it is.

67 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineTxAgKuwait From United States of America, joined Aug 1999, 1803 posts, RR: 42
Reply 1, posted (14 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 2549 times:

This is a real good subject....thought-provoking.

My answer to the question is basically...all the other airlines think they are smarter than Southwest.

Southwest's product isn't radically different from the coach product on American or USAir or anyone else. A meal? On most 2 or 3 hr flights you might get something masquerading as a sandwich. On anything less...you are gonna get "beverage service only" which means that they block the aisle with a cart for an hour and you get one drink. In a case like that, Southwest's product is vastly superior.

Boarding process? Since the gold, platinum, titanium, iridium, and lead AAdvantage members etc get to preboard....the boarding process on the other carriers is as maddening (if not more so) than on Southwest. The difference is a machine has told you which seat you will sit in. Hope that the person sitting next to you took a bath...otherwise you may not get to select another seat.

Southwest has managed to keep a corporate culture alive where the great majority of the employees honestly believe they are on a crusade to make air travel affordable. They are well paid but the good wages came as a trade off on work rules....the work rules are pretty flexible (FAs can help clean planes, ramp agents can push the aircraft back, etc etc).

A lot of airlines came and looked at Southwest's operations over the years...especially the executives of low-fare start ups. But hey, even Gordon Bethune came and studied it back when he was still working at Braniff (I think).

Everyone will smile and nod but then go back home and fail to heed the lessons. They are smarter than the boys and girls in Texas.

That's one of the reasons so few start ups have been able to prevail. The system is delicate, finally tuned, and you can't afford to junk a single part of it. Even the "no assigned seats" is critical to the overall concept.

What's funny is that the big airline executives will sit there and delude themselves by thinking "Southwest won't take our business passengers"...."Southwest's passenger complaint ration is so low (in April 2000 1/4th the complaints of the airline in 2nd place) because people don't expect much from them."

And then the people with the ugly planes will sneak up behind them and swallow another market with low fares and kind service. Funny how it works, but it has worked many, many times in the past and will work again.

And those big airline execs who are so smart and so well paid will be wondering "what happened?"



User currently offlineGoingboeing From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 4875 posts, RR: 16
Reply 2, posted (14 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 2518 times:

Also, way back in the early days, their president, Lamar Muse, talked with the unions and lobbied for those flexible work rules. He implemented the profit sharing plan, he asked the unions to look at long term compensation rather than a dollar an hour increase in pay. He basically made many of the early employees millionaires, because he followed thru on what he promised. Many of those employees are still working for Southwest...not because they have to, but because they WANT to.

What did it mean? It meant that the employees realize that it's THEIR airline, THEY share in the profits that are made by working together. They were a small airline that was going to kick some bu**. That was the begining of the "Southwest Spirit" that sets them apart.



User currently offlineJ32driver From United States of America, joined May 2000, 399 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (14 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 2518 times:

No matter how you cut it, the corporate culture is a direct result of the man at the top of the ladder. If he is comfortable with his authority then he lets others below him exercise their own authority right down to the agents who are allowed to do multiple tasks to make the airline run as efficiently as possible.

On the other hand, those guys that rule with an iron fist will always run a piss poor airline. If the guys below you are afraid to speak up for fear of getting fired, the guy at the top will never learn of the problems below that are sucking away the profits!


User currently offlineImkeww From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (14 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 2483 times:

Well Said! Your observation could also be extrapolated to most industries, but is especially true in the airline industry!

User currently offlineCoex From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (14 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 2479 times:

I'm a former employee of Southwest that "saw the light." It is my honest belief that Southwest Airlines is NOT one of the greatest places to work. I know that I will probably get allot of anti-coex mail since I have stated MY OPINION. I left Southwest and went to Continental which I see as the best move that I have ever made.

Before comments can be made about how great of a place Southwest is to work for, ask the flight attendants... ask the rampers... ask the provisioners... ask the customer service agents..... Plus , always remember.... Southwest Airlines has one of the best marketing and public relation departments ever, which I BELIEVE gives the illusion of how great Southwest Airlines really is......

\


Sorry pro-Southwest Airliners............

Continental can be the model...........


User currently offlineGoingboeing From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 4875 posts, RR: 16
Reply 6, posted (14 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 2472 times:

Not gonna bash you coex, but you might want to go stop by Gordon's office and ask who he used as a model for employee relations. It certainly wasn't Frank Lorenzo.

Certainly as companies grow, they are going to get a few who don't like the company. Rather than bash you, coex, I'd like to commend you for actually DOING something to remedy the situation. Too many folks in union jobs don't want to change because they go to the bottom of the seniority list, so they stay where they're at and bitch and moan and complain, and threaten CHAOS or strike.

You kind of have to go by past history. Right now, all US airlines are doing pretty good. Let the economy tank, and other airlines are going to look at cutting costs. Airline profits are just pennies per seat mile, and in this industry, a penny saved really IS a penny earned. One of the first places that an airline looks for cost savings is to the labor force. That translates into defered raises, givebacks, or layoffs. Southwest has weathered past downturns in the economy pretty well. When no other airlines were making money, Southwest was still sharing the profits that they made. They also only had one small round of layoffs in the very early years. Since then, they've had none.

Southwest has grown quite a bit. Some of the new hires aren't going to be happy when they realize that "Alaska's paying $X more for the same job". But in my opinion, the number of satisfied employees at Southwest far outweighs the number of dissatisfied employees. You've done yourself and Southwest a favor by going to CO - they lose a dissatisfied employee and you gain what you feel to be a better situation. That's win-win, my friend.


User currently offlineGnomon From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (14 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 2450 times:

Matt D wrote: "Is having power and control in the short term more important than conceding some of that power, and treating your workers with respect and making a killing financially in the long term?"

It's a sad, sad day when the powers that be in the airline corporate culture sit down and say, "We don't want to compete any longer. Let's consolidate. At everyone's expense but ours."

I think this mergermania is a result of the same corporate culture that differentiates other carriers from Southwest. Quick money seems to be the bottom line these days, not long-term improvements of service or long-term commitments to a certain type of service, as Southwest has shown. Southwest maintains its unique "Southwest Class" (which I arbitrarily call it), while carriers like DL, CO, AA, and UA have some kind of attention span disorder that compels them to rebrand and rename business and first classes, combine the two, etc. just about every couple years. How many different business- and first-class products have those airlines gone through in the last ten years? The constant change gets very, very old.


User currently offlineTxAgKuwait From United States of America, joined Aug 1999, 1803 posts, RR: 42
Reply 8, posted (14 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 2450 times:

Dear Coex:

I won't bash you. On the contrary---I will second what GoeingBoeing said and reiterate that IF you were unhappy at Southwest...then you did yourself and them both a favor by leaving.

Having read quite a few threads of yours over the last year or so.....you are (as I recall) very bitter towards Southwest Airlines Co. and lose few opportunities to bash them.

That being the case, would you care to share the nature or reason why you were terminated?

Best regards,

TxAgQ8



User currently offlineCoex From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (14 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 2441 times:

I will be more then happy to tell you why I left Southwest Airlines... I wasn't terminated..... I had no personal problems with SWA, or anyone at SWA. I was a member of SWA culture committee, spending so much time arranging events for SWA. Even events for employees who need special help....

I'll write why I left SWA and then post it... I don't have the time tonight to write anything else and I know that by tomorrow, this post would have already advanced.........


User currently offlineGoingboeing From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 4875 posts, RR: 16
Reply 10, posted (14 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 2401 times:

The thread ended up on the second page, so I wanted to revive it for you...I read TxAgQ8's question and did a little search, and you really don't miss many opportunities to bash Southwest, In fact, you've started a few threads bashing them. Now, I've quit jobs that I didn't like before, but I never found it necessary to slam them. I couldn't quite understand what you had posted, but I really am kind of curious to know the circumstances surrounding why you left Southwest. Please enlighten me...

Thanks
GB


User currently offlineGoingboeing From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 4875 posts, RR: 16
Reply 11, posted (14 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 2380 times:

I fear I posted too early. here is is again Coex. I'm very interested to hear why you left Southwest. Maybe you'll get this before the topic makes it's way back to page 2.

GB


User currently offlineGoingboeing From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 4875 posts, RR: 16
Reply 12, posted (14 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 2354 times:

darn it, the silly post made it to the second screen again before you could read it Coex....Here it goes again. My interest stems from a project I am working on concerning disgruntled employees. It seems obvious to me that you are disgruntled, so my curiosity is getting the better of me!

Thanks,

GB


User currently offlineTxAgKuwait From United States of America, joined Aug 1999, 1803 posts, RR: 42
Reply 13, posted (14 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 2331 times:

CoEx:

Me and GoingBoeing are still waiting.....

You've had plenty of time to concoct some perjury.

Let's have it!

Have a nice day....

TxAgQ8


User currently offlineGoingboeing From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 4875 posts, RR: 16
Reply 14, posted (14 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 2316 times:

..

User currently offlineNycank From United States of America, joined May 2000, 233 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (14 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days ago) and read 2305 times:


Both Swiss Air and Singapore Air have excellent service as far as the customer
is concerned. Some of it in direct contrast to SouthWest's. So a better question
is Are there two industries within this sector ?

Here are some points and food for thought:

1. Swiss and Singapore both depend on International Ops for their survival, being
small countries they have no domestic volume to speak of. They have to be
sensitive to diverse clientele and compete for every passenger. Hence the
attention to details.

2. Both Airlines are really small in size too - They somehow became cash rich by doing something right - Satisfying customers and maintaining still a good margin. Swiss has taken majority stake in Sabena (I hope they improve SN's CRM), and SIA took approx 49% stake in VirginAtlantic. A combination
of size and details has prevented (or saved) them from dealing with macro
economics of large OPs like UA/AA/DL etc.

3. Bilaterals - International Airlines still work on Flag/national and inter-govt.
agreements This gives them necessary slots (Bermuda-II aside) and a
manageable forcasting methodology. SIA and SR both have never been a
discount airlines in the sense that their fares are *not* cut-throat.

SouthWest has not had to juggle international operations - I wonder what their
flight operations and profitability would be in TransAtlantic or TransPacific sector ?

The domestic US deregulated hub-spoke differential yeald-management and
complex pricing models have evolved in part because of having to satisfy
a few major industry analysts associated with amjor Wall St. firms every QUARTER !!!!! - who in turn can influence institutional investors. Ever heard of
Candice Browning ??  

These are few of the many talking points I have  

nycank


User currently offlineGoingboeing From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 4875 posts, RR: 16
Reply 16, posted (14 years 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 2278 times:

..

User currently offlineTritanic From United States of America, joined Jul 2010, 0 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (14 years 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 2276 times:

Folks Southwest is doing pretty good. It's the Wallmart of the Airline industry. It's no frills, simple, and at times very humorous (which the big boys need to look at), but let's not go over board. If you think the big boy's don't have a good product, and if you think passengers don't like the frills, well you are WRONG!

The month of MAY D.O.T report came out for all the airlines. Delta finished first in ontime. Delta finish second behind South West for customer complaints. Delta finished 2nd in mishandled baggage. Considering that Delta flies apporximately 70 million more people a year, that's not to shabby for a major. South West is good for a smaller airline that's growing, but the highest paid employees in the industry with the most benefits are still UA, CO, AA, and DL. People love preseat assignments, People love First and Business class, people still enjoy some pampering, and if you are willing to pay, well the airlines will accomadate you. In most of the majors the top 10 percent of passengers (the highest frequent fliers) represent 75 percent of all revenue!!!


User currently offlineGoingboeing From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 4875 posts, RR: 16
Reply 18, posted (14 years 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 2265 times:

Very nice dissertation for a Delta fan. Too bad the topic is dealing more with EMPLOYEE satisfaction than CONSUMER satisfaction. But...altough it's true that Delta carried more passengers than Southwest, for every 100,000 of those passengers, .41 complained about Southwest versus 1.60 of the 100,000 Delta passengers.

I wouldn't brag about the top 10 percent representing 75% of all revenue...let the economy tank and you'll see that revenue decrease. Something you young folks aren't familiar with yet...it's called "austerity programs".

27 years of continuous profitablity and counting.


User currently offlineTxAgKuwait From United States of America, joined Aug 1999, 1803 posts, RR: 42
Reply 19, posted (14 years 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 2279 times:

Interesting.

You state 10% of the passengers provide 75% of the revenue.

I don't believe that. At least not without some sources.

Yes, airlines like high yield business.

They like people who pay outlandish amounts of money for First Class.

How many of those folks in the F compartment do you think paid book price for a F ticket? How many do you figure upgraded using miles?

But 10% of the folks providing 75% of the revenue? Unless you can cite some sources, I have to say No Way, Jose.

Incidentally.....as long as we are talking about airlines...thinking of Southwest as "a good smaller airline" doesn't really wash anymore.

In terms of passengers carried, in the United States they are #4. Behind DL, AA, and UA. About 1.2 Million pax per month behind UA.

On the other hand, they are about 600,000 pax a month of where they were last year.



User currently offlineTritanic From United States of America, joined Jul 2010, 0 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (14 years 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 2267 times:

Ok now let's take this to a new level. As far as sighting sources. I'm actually bringing you statistics that was forcasted for revenue control at Delta Airlines based on last years numbers. At Delta we call are elites Platinum Medallions, and yes these few represent that much revenue, and those numbers were put forth in corportate to support a "special program" that would enable individual attention to these high revenue passengers. The program is called a Passenger Service Coordinator. This specialty service program has agents in business suits, that are very highly qualified in there field to meet on board late arriving aircrafts to give new iteneraries, hotels, rebookings, and at times cars to take them to close connections. I have a great amount of revenue informaition for our other high mileage fliers also, but I really don't think it's pertinant.

DL flew 106,000,000 passengers last year and profited over 1.1 billion dollars. By years end they will have purchased new computers for all employees for home use. They will have free AT&T internet access for home use. They have the highest compensated employees in every category. They have won numerous awards: "Airline of the Year", "Best managed Airline". They are the LEAST unionized airline in the world!!!! That must say something with employee satisfaciton.

The airlines of today: AA UA CO NW BA invest BILLIONS to take care of these elite business passengers who often will spend for the full fares (just for the flexability). I know personally how CO UA and DL have invested in technology for these important passengers, such as, personal pagers from the airlines that completely update and flight changes, or stby changes, atc delays. Free wireless internet access within the gate areas and club rooms. Internet access during flight. Passengers are also ranked not only by the mileage flown, but now a new criteria based on revenue generated. Inhanced first class service, such as food and new seating.

Let's not mix apples and oranges. Southwest has a great product, but it doesn't forecast revenue in the same respects as the big boy's. It markets to different clientelle.

Southwest bumps for passerners (percentage) than any other airline in the domestic U.S.....and lacks in loss baggage.

Basically it's two seperate products. Some people take greyhound to their destination, some trains, some hitch, and if one will sacrifice certain convienances for savings then all the power to them. Just remember why the special program previously mentioned is there. It's to keep our 250,000 dollar a year passenger very satisfied. And all the majors will spare no expence to attract such.

Pleas exuse the spelling, not enough time to go back and edit.


User currently offlineGoingboeing From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 4875 posts, RR: 16
Reply 21, posted (14 years 2 months 2 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 2247 times:

My how times have changed. Not too long ago, rather than "Passenger Service Coordinators" for 10 % of the passengers, Delta had "Red Coats" for 100% of their passengers. Red Coaters are harder and harder to find these days. Stop and think about it - what Delta is saying is "to hell with you greyhound riding losers...sure, you're 90% of our passengers, but these 10% "platinum plated titanim premier" CUSTOMERS are who we care about.

Let me give you some examples -

My Sister-in-law was visiting us last year. HEr husband is a very successful surgeon. She brought her 2 boys (3 and 5) with her. I dropped her off at the airport and discovered that Delta no longer preboards families with children. They did call for platinum level passenger preboarding - yet nobody stood up. Based on your statement that those flyers made up 75% of revenues, I can assume that this flight must have been operating at a loss. BTW, while not platinum (or even copper) - those tickets WERE full Y fare. She's back this year... and flew USAirways. Y'all lost 4 full Y class passengers (hubby came with this time).

Flying into ATL with a connection to MCO that was going to be close (thanks to a ground crew misfueling the plane) I asked the FA if she could tell me what gate our connection was leaving from, since my wife suffers from arthritis and if it meant changing terminals we'd request a wheelchair. Her reply? "No". Funny, AA,UAL, US, NW and even Vanguard announces connections. Delta used to, and maybe they did for the titanium 10%. I guess they were too busy for this flight.

Delta used to be my airline of choice back in the early 80's. Their service has deteriorated for us "regular folk". That's one big thing about Southwest - the family who travels once a year is treated as well as the businessman who travels everyday.


User currently offlineTritanic From United States of America, joined Jul 2010, 0 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (14 years 2 months 2 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 2231 times:

Goingboeing, well it's obvious you have a love affair with Southwest, but I would prefer stats instead of the ONE time your sister flew, and the ONE time a connection gate was not given on board.

PSA's are still in place just like yesteryear. For your information some of our "Titanium", or we call them Platinum fly with us around 100-150 times a year. Some of them see us more than their own families. I am proud of any company that will take what ever means necessary to satisfy these very loyal customers. That's not just with DL, just ask any of the other majors how important these select folks are.

It's a very difficult task to have Full fare paying customers and those who are at 10 percent of a full fare. Flight crew does not know the difference, therefore they do not distinguish service given.

Everyone's important, but like any company and any business they will give their most loyal and most revenue producing just a tad bit more attention.

Let's look at certain industries, how about Marriott? Well if I'm paying $50.00 more a room I expect a little more then Redroof, they both have beds, so what's the difference in price?

With the majors they offer choice! If you want $112.00 RT tickets or if you want $2500 RT Hawaii the choice is there. If you were on DL and the plane suffers maintanence well they can easily place you on AA, CO, NW, UA, US, and many more, well except South West who have no airline agreements with any other airline. How about if a thunder shower causes a misconection. Does Southwest pick up the tap for hotels, and food? Most majors do, even though the tariff rules state not such action is needed due to weather or ATC!

Southwest is without a doubt the best discount airline in the business, but they are not ready for comparison at this time.


User currently offlineGoingboeing From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 4875 posts, RR: 16
Reply 23, posted (14 years 2 months 2 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 2217 times:

Tritanic - Back in the early 80's, I flew Delta almost exclusivly - twice a week, every week, without fail. I would have been one of your gold plated 10%. Back then, we were all just "Frequent flyers", we didn't get any extra perks, outside of the Medallion club and the special unlisted reservation number that was avialable to the guy with 1,000,000 miles or the guy with 10 miles. We didn't get preferred seating, we got upgrades if we wanted to pay for them or redeem the miles. Everybody was treated about the same, and the service provided was excellent.

The recent times I've flown, it's very apparent that your medallion flyers are most important to Delta. I guess it's good that y'all have found a way to identify the elite passenger. Because the service given to the non elite full fare and 10% full fare passengers has deteriorated considerably. Sure, I can't cite stats that "prove" that. I've only got the flights I've flown, or the flights my family has flown. And they have all had less than stellar service. That's why they have become my last resort when travelling.

You're right, I'm a fan of Southwest - they've got the flights to most places I want to go at the times I want to go, and for the price that doesn't break the bank. I even select WN for business when I travel. I save my company money, and I don't spend all day flying thru hubs. The service I recieve is better that I would get on most other airlines. Any flight less than 2 hours on any airline won't get anyone much more than peanuts and a coke.

BTW - it's true that Southwest doesn't interline, but they make up for that with FREQUENCY. If a plane has a mechanincal, chances are pretty good that they've got another flight (or two or 3 ) out within the hour. If it's the last flight of the night and there's a mechanical or missed connection (although those are few since WN is more of a point to point carrier) then yes, they will put me up in a hotel.

Bottom line, I get to spend more time with my family and less time traveling these days. So when I do spend my hard earned dollars to fly somewhere, I prefer to take an airline who cares about the 90% of us who make up only 25% of their revenues. You've pretty much pointed out that we don't matter at Delta, and that's why I'm not flying Delta that much any more.


User currently offlineTxAgKuwait From United States of America, joined Aug 1999, 1803 posts, RR: 42
Reply 24, posted (14 years 2 months 2 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 2221 times:

Actually, I know GoingBoeing and he does not have a love affair with Southwest, they are more like "just good friends."

And I guess some of us folks who think that our discovery of and continued support of Southwest as the most revolutionary idea since penicillin (for those unwise love affairs) can be pretty insufferable at times.

However, what it boils down to is that most of us who are members of "the great unwashed" or "the huddled masses yearning to breathe free" if you prefer....our employers want us in the coach cabin, and we do fly a lot....but we have corporate travel offices and such to make sure we aren;t squandering the bosses' year end incentive bonus.

Those of us who fly AA or DL in coach, steerage, or "the main cabin" may have a slightly different point of view. On most of our domestic travels....the travel experience we would get from a full Y ticket on DL is no better (and sometimes worse) than what we would get on WN.

The bottom line is, a lot of the time...there is no meal service to speak of in coach on flights of 2 hrs or so. And if we do go 3 hrs and there is a meal provided....well, a great deal of the time I would do just about as well to eat the packaging material the food-like substance came in. (I had a REAL nasty turkey sandwich the other day on AA)

The pitch (distance between seats) in Southwest's 737s is as generous if not more so than that found in the coach cabin of DL. How do they do this while cramming so many seats in? Simple, they have those new thin line seats and the galleys are very simple...for drinks and snacks only (no meals) so you can squeeze a few seats in without turning the cabin into a torture chamber.

What continues to set Southwest apart from everyone else is the overall impression you get from the employees that they honestly believe they are on a crusade to make flying affordable. They do, in fact, sneer and make fun of some of the walk up fares that other airlines get away with. I recall well a remark one made at BNA about Delta's fare from there to Atlanta being criminally obscene.

A lot of airline execs like to think that they are not liable to suffer at the hands of Southwest since "business travelers don;t like to fly them." This delusion usually doesn't last too long.

But in the big scheme of thing, it's all interesting to watch, but folks ought to fly on whomever they wish. Ultimately we will see what the outcome is. In the meantime, me and GoingBoeing have about decided that we have seen the future and it is Southwest...whereas you think we may be headed to mega-carriers that will continue to offer air travel in accordance with the way things have been in the past.

Suffice it to say, it will be interesting to watch.

But hey, those deals with DL aren't isolated incidents. Next time Mrs Tritanic needs a permanent...let me know. I got some Delta tales guaranteed to curl her hair. Especially the one that involves the schoolchildren from a private Christian academy and a hooker motel with 4 free porn channels near FLL.


25 Tritanic : As with all the airlines the late 80's and early 90's spelled disaster. Most airlines reduced the work force at least 30 percent. Some airlines did no
26 Tritanic : Well TxAgKuwait, we here in ATL are laughing on the floor!! You and your "revolutionaries" are here to change the world and the airline industry!!! Ma
27 Tritanic : Well TxAgKuwait, we here in ATL are laughing on the floor!! You and your "revolutionaries" are here to change the world and the airline industry!!! Ma
28 Matt D : Jeez....look at what I started.
29 Goingboeing : Any moran knows it's not "sofisticated". Every SOPHISTICATED person ain't a MORON. The plural of "aircraft" is "aircraft" International means noting t
30 OPNLguy : >>>Oh ya a 737 flies under 1200 miles, maybe they will invest in larger aircraft once they rule the world!!! If this is the caliber and quality of inf
31 Goingboeing : He's supposed to tell us why he left Southwest. IMHO, the last words in his "exit interview" were "You can't fire me, I quit!"
32 Tritanic : We're not discussing range with the revolutionaries, that's based on most airline scheaduling uses 737's for under 1200 miles!!!!!!!! Look at some tim
33 TxAgKuwait : Let's see...in April of this year Delta flew 9 million passengers. Little old Southwest flew roughly 6.2 million passengers. That is scarcely 70 milli
34 Tritanic : Are you truley what I said earlier, "a moron". How many times did you read that Southwest was a good airline with a good product! But know you think I
35 OPNLguy : >>>Sothwest is fine, but unless they upgrade aircrafts, define hubs, and fly outside the boarder they will always be that friendly discount carrier!!
36 Goingboeing : Hey tritanic - why not read a book on the history of Southwest airlines. Tex goes waaaaay back with them. Personal kind of thing. Not some tennybopper
37 Tritanic : Original question to the post. Why isn't Southwest the Industry Model? That's because the industry model is CO, AA, UA, DL, NW........BA, LH,JA.......
38 Tritanic : Goingboeing, are you ever going to respond to what I have said about different products. Do you have no response to the obvious facts. Do you realize
39 TxAgKuwait : Not germane to the argument, but GoingBoeing will testify that I am usually a real stickler for accuracy. You make the comment "DL carried 108 MM pax
40 TxAgKuwait : While I was looking those numbers up at the DOT website.....it occurred to me if the DOT is correct, then WN managed to catch AA in # of passengers la
41 Tritanic : See that's my point!!!! You are using domestic numbers and I don't blame you for that mistake, but now let's add all the international passengers.....
42 Tritanic : TxAgKuwait, you can find world wide passenger count at the web site for International Airline Transportation Associaton.
43 Goingboeing : > No, they haven't modeled after the "majors". Let's look, shall we? Hubs. LUV doesn't have them. THey are a point to point carrier. AA has started so
44 Post contains images Bacardi182 : i am very proud of you guys! you have not started any fights about kids vs adults, boeing vs airbus, or europe vs america! southwest will never become
45 Goingboeing : Also tri - Southwest has identified thier niche. They stick with it because it works. No international? That's fine...it's not part of the niche. Sout
46 Goingboeing : Last I checked, there were several airlines that flew into DFW. Adjust your schedule a bit, get a new credit card that gives you CO (or TWA, or UAL or
47 Travelin man : As a frequent traveller with little bias (admittedly except recently against UA for some crappy service), let me put in my $.02. The assertion that bu
48 Tritanic : Southwest is running out of niches in the market place. They are very strategic on stayingAWAY from the majors. They rarely ever compete or will enter
49 Tritanic : Best post I've read on this subject and to the point. Travelin man "The two types of service complement each other".........two seperate types!!!
50 Goingboeing : Tritanic - WN tends to avoid fortress hubs because their 300 planes aren't making a nickle sitting as number 21 in line for takeoff. They may never se
51 TxAgKuwait : the 107 MM passengers for DL in 1999. I didn't look it up, but I'll take your word for it. 65 Million is still not less than half of 107 Million, rega
52 Goingboeing : Anybody seen Coex?
53 Drerx7 : to predatory pricing by the "big" carriers. Southwest is one of the majors now. They lower the cost of flying in the markets they enter. The bottom li
54 Tritanic : Well Goingboeing nice to start another afternoon with the revolutionaries.....being sticklers on spelling and numbers....well let's start with fares..
55 The spinmaster : the spinmaster is back. it's been a while since i posted. here we go. in general with all airlines. we are an airline. not a catering service. if you
56 Goingboeing : Why, I got my fare from Delta's web site! Check it out. Book flight 1785 at 10:05 tomorrow morning with the return (yes, people have to get home) on f
57 Goingboeing : Anybody seen Coex?
58 Texairport : I think that Southwest is the greatest success story in commercial aviation. However, it is a scientific, precise formula that makes them successful.
59 Drerx7 : Southwest lowers fares because that is its formula. The other's lower their fares in order to run the new guy out-then they raise them back up. Usuall
60 Goingboeing : still got an APB out for Coex...or am I gonna have to start an "I LUV Southwest" thread to get him out of hiding and put up one simple post about why
61 We're Nuts : Such hatred isn't healthy for you Coex, let it go man....
62 Whippy : Would you all just let it go? His failure to reply in and of itself speaks volumes about his credibility or lack thereof.
63 We're Nuts : Coex does this alot, you try to ask him about his time at SWA and he just disappears. I'm starting to think that he never worked there, or if he did,
64 TxAgKuwait : But speaking for me and GoingBoeing, we can't let CoEx get over this easy. We are staunch defenders of truth, justice, and I would say American way bu
65 We're Nuts : I know people at SWA who might know more about this Coex character, perhaps I'll ask them.
66 B737-112 : It's on the second page so let's start again, this is fun! -Ryan
67 Goingboeing : Welcome back Coex - saw you post on the Continental thead for the first time since the 14th. I'm still wondering how come you left Southwest. Eagerly
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