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AF 777 Vs A340 - How Do They Decide?  
User currently offlineClickhappy From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 9664 posts, RR: 68
Posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 12648 times:
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How does Air France decide which routes get the 777 vs. which get the A340?

52 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineDfwRevolution From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 1001 posts, RR: 51
Reply 1, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 12619 times:

The 777 is fitted with a premium F/B/Y cabin while the A340 are fitted with a high-density tourist configuration. The 777 goes on big-money routes like CDG-LAX, CDG-JFK, etc while the the A340 goes on vacation routes like CDG-SXM.

User currently offlineEWROwznj00 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 12590 times:

I know EWR used to get 777, A340's and even a 747 once in a while, but now I think it's only A340. JFK gets an A330 and definitely the 777, but no A340 as far as I know. I'm guessing seasonal shifts in demand are a major factor.

I read on here recently, I think that it was one of the Qantas threads on their upcoming order, that the A340 was used specifically on the SMX route because the 777 would take a payload restriction due to mountains in the Caribbean. Is that true?

Edit: As pointed out, there is that cabin layout factor if they can fill those first and business class seats.

[Edited 2005-12-31 21:49:52]

User currently offlineGigneil From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 16347 posts, RR: 85
Reply 3, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 12518 times:

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 1):
The 777 is fitted with a premium F/B/Y cabin while the A340 are fitted with a high-density tourist configuration.

Not exactly.... 2 class, yes. High density, not really.

You want to see what high density is wait until those ORY based 773ERs arrive.

N


User currently offlineQantas744ER From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 1296 posts, RR: 4
Reply 4, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 12288 times:

Quoting EWROwznj00 (Reply 2):
I read on here recently, I think that it was one of the Qantas threads on their upcoming order, that the A340 was used specifically on the SMX route because the 777 would take a payload restriction due to mountains in the Caribbean. Is that true?

WTF! Im sorry but if the point in that sentence was that the 777 cant climb fast enough to clear the mountains after SXM that is just bullshit! im not trying to bash the 340 by saying its a slow climber but the 777 has one of the best climb rates, and once or wice air Europe used their 777-200ER to SXM. All i know is that some airlines dont use their 777 to airports with runways shorter than 7600 feet not because the plane cant make it, but just as company rule.

Please correct me if im wrong



Happiness is V1 in Lagos
User currently offlineBG777300ER From Bulgaria, joined Mar 2005, 269 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 12252 times:

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 3):
You want to see what high density is wait until those ORY based 773ERs arrive.

What routes will those take?



Koi mi sra v gashtite?
User currently offlineFlySSC From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 7428 posts, RR: 57
Reply 6, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 12203 times:

Quoting BG777300ER (Reply 5):
What routes will those take?

Starting June 2006 : FDF, then PTP, and in Feb. 2007, ORY-RUN.

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 1):
the A340 are fitted with a high-density tourist configuration.



Quoting Gigneil (Reply 3):
Not exactly.... 2 class, yes. High density, not really.

Gigneil is right. The Y cabin on board A343 is not "high density". It is exactely the same cabin as in the B777 (same seat, pitch 32", PTV, etc ...).
It's just a bigger Y class.

They are configured with 36J/236Y or 30J/260Y
while the B772 are 12P/56J/202Y and soon a new config with new seats : 4P/49J/211Y.

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 3):
You want to see what high density is wait until those ORY based 773ERs arrive.

They will have config. of 14J/36S (premium Economy)/422M

Quoting Qantas744ER (Reply 4):
WTF! Im sorry but if the point in that sentence was that the 777 cant climb fast enough to clear the mountains after SXM that is just bullshit! im not trying to bash the 340 by saying its a slow climber but the 777 has one of the best climb rates, and once or wice air Europe used their 777-200ER to SXM. All i know is that some airlines dont use their 777 to airports with runways shorter than 7600 feet not because the plane cant make it, but just as company rule.

Please correct me if im wrong

Despite the fact that AF's B777 config is not adapted to the type of traffic (tourists), the B777 suffers from the restrictions imposed to a twin. The B777 couldn't take enough fuel to fly nonstop to CDG to comply with those restictions imposed in case of an engine failure on take off.


User currently offlineN79969 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 12183 times:

Quoting Qantas744ER (Reply 4):
WTF! Im sorry but if the point in that sentence was that the 777 cant climb fast enough to clear the mountains after SXM that is just bullshit! im not trying to bash the 340 by saying its a slow climber but the 777 has one of the best climb rates, and once or wice air Europe used their 777-200ER to SXM. All i know is that some airlines dont use their 777 to airports with runways shorter than 7600 feet not because the plane cant make it, but just as company rule.

Please correct me if im wrong

Do not know if this true or not but I doubt it.

These sorts of restrictions are not based on climb performance anyway. Rather they based on the "driftdown" altitude of airplane following an engine shutdown. This really affects enroute planning more than anything else. 3 or 4 engine airplanes lose a little altitude while two-engine airplanes lose quite a bit.

All transport category airplanes must be able to clear obstacles by a certain margin during takeoff assuming the loss of an engine.


User currently offlineMats From Israel, joined Jul 2003, 637 posts, RR: 1
Reply 8, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 12154 times:

What about cargo capacity? How do the 777 and A340 compare to each other?

User currently offlineAnxebla From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 12146 times:

Quoting FlySSC (Reply 6):
They are configured with 36J/236Y or 30J/260Y

Why such difference among the same A343s?
Happy new year to all a.netters  santahat  in my first 2006 post  champagne 


User currently offlineDfwRevolution From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 1001 posts, RR: 51
Reply 10, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 12121 times:

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 3):
You want to see what high density is wait until those ORY based 773ERs arrive.

How (or were) the pavement issues with the 773ER at ORY solved?


User currently offlineTrex8 From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 4871 posts, RR: 14
Reply 11, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 12099 times:
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Quoting Anxebla (Reply 9):
Quoting FlySSC (Reply 6):They are configured with 36J/236Y or 30J/260Y
Why such difference among the same A343s?

if you have 60in pitch for J (dunno if thats what AF does but thats pretty common these days), an extra J row effectively ends up taking up at least maybe 72in which is more than 2 Y rows but less than 3! Plus those J passengers need a lot more closet space for all that extra hand luggage they have!!.


User currently offlineRJ111 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 11396 times:

There was an interesting article on this on that AirTransportBiz site. Unfortunately it's gone, but IIRC before the A340 cabins where refitted, the A340 was used on long 'thin' routes Jakarta being the example, and the 777 on the long heavy routes GRU being the example. But i didn't understand that as the planes accomodate roughly the same capacity. Bear in mind that was a long while ago and i can barely remember it, so if somebody manages to dig that site up again it would be very appreciated.

I'd imagine the A340 would work best on the routes with light payload (influenced from cargo), and the 772ER on those with heavier payload. The optimal cruise weight of the A343 is probably much nearer the OEW. But as they are both configured for different markets, i guess AF doesn't bother with this.

Happy New Year, BTW.

[Edited 2006-01-01 04:47:28]

User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21582 posts, RR: 59
Reply 13, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 11341 times:

Quoting Trex8 (Reply 11):
if you have 60in pitch for J (dunno if thats what AF does but thats pretty common these days), an extra J row effectively ends up taking up at least maybe 72in

no, if you have 60in pitch, one more row would take up 60" more space. that's what pitch means...  Wink



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineMD90fan From Bahamas, joined Jul 2005, 2931 posts, RR: 7
Reply 14, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 11275 times:

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 1):
The 777 is fitted with a premium F/B/Y cabin while the A340 are fitted with a high-density tourist configuration. The 777 goes on big-money routes like CDG-LAX, CDG-JFK, etc while the the A340 goes on vacation routes like CDG-SXM.

IIRC AF's code for the high density A340's are 34V? And they go to ATL too  Smile



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User currently offlineTrex8 From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 4871 posts, RR: 14
Reply 15, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 11259 times:
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Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 13):
no, if you have 60in pitch, one more row would take up 60" more space. that's what pitch means...

but IIRC AF are putting that extra row into the 2nd cabin and when you add the partition to the Y cabin, you take up a few more inches and often up to a foot in practice because pitch is the distance from the same point of one seat to the next and if you are segregating a cabin with a partition you need more space.


User currently offlineFlySSC From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 7428 posts, RR: 57
Reply 16, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 10163 times:

Quoting MD90fan (Reply 14):
IIRC AF's code for the high density A340's are 34V? And they go to ATL too

There is NO HIGH DENSITY AF A343.
There is only two different configuration, just like on the B744.

Before the cabin were refitted, the configurations were :

B772 : 12P/56J/202Y
A343 : 06P/42J/204Y

As there was no range capacity consideration for AF (both A343 & B777 could fly to the same destination from AF's Hub CDG), and the Y capacity was very similar, the A343 was used on the route with less "Premium" Class demand.


User currently offlineAirPacific747 From Denmark, joined May 2008, 2476 posts, RR: 24
Reply 17, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 10090 times:

Quoting EWROwznj00 (Reply 2):
but no A340 as far as I know.

I know that a friend of mine flew CDG-JFK in an A340 during the summer of 2004 and on the way back he flew the 777


User currently offlineGeo772 From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2004, 519 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 9679 times:

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 13):
Quoting Trex8 (Reply 11):
if you have 60in pitch for J (dunno if thats what AF does but thats pretty common these days), an extra J row effectively ends up taking up at least maybe 72in

no, if you have 60in pitch, one more row would take up 60" more space. that's what pitch means... Wink

Actually seat pitch is the measurement from the front of the seat back to the back of the seat back in front. This is why many quite a few carriers use very thin seat backs, it actually allows more seats to be fitted at the same pitch.



Flown on A300B4/600,A319/20/21,A332/3,A343,B727,B732/3/4/5/6/7/8,B741/2/4,B752/3,B762/3,B772/3,DC10,L1011-200,VC10,MD80,
User currently offlineFlySSC From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 7428 posts, RR: 57
Reply 19, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 9120 times:

Quoting Trex8 (Reply 11):
if you have 60in pitch for J (dunno if thats what AF does but thats pretty common these days), an extra J row effectively ends up taking up at least maybe 72in which is more than 2 Y rows but less than 3! Plus those J passengers need a lot more closet space for all that extra hand luggage they have!!.



Quoting Anxebla (Reply 9):
Why such difference among the same A343s?

Configuration : 36J/236 Y :

30 J seats in the first part of the cabin (2x2x2), between doors 1 & 2.
6 seats J on 1 row only after the Galley (row 7), right behind Doors 2.

Then the cabin partition, and first row (row 17) of Y cabin (2x3x2), then the rest of Y Cabin (2x4x2).

Configuration 30J/261 :

30 J seats located, like in the other config, in the first part of the cabin, between doors 1 & 2.

Y cabin, starting right behind doors 2.
3 rows of Y seats (24 seats) replacing the 6 J seats (row 14, 15, 16) + 1 Y seats at the row 17 (2x4x2, instead of 2x3x2 in the previous config).
236 + 24 + 1 = 261.

Same seats pitch in both config : 32"

Seat map config 36J/236Y :

http://www.seatguru.com/airlines/Air_France/Air_France_Airbus_A340.php


User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21864 posts, RR: 55
Reply 20, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 8975 times:

Quoting Qantas744ER (Reply 4):
WTF! Im sorry but if the point in that sentence was that the 777 cant climb fast enough to clear the mountains after SXM that is just bullshit! im not trying to bash the 340 by saying its a slow climber but the 777 has one of the best climb rates

On two engines, you're absolutely right. But what about on one engine? That's what really matters in determining takeoff performance - how fast the aircraft will climb with an engine failure. Methinks the 340 on three engines will outclimb the 777 on one engine, hence the weight restrictions at certain airports for the 777, and hence that 747s and A340s are much more prevalent at SXM than are big twins like the 777, 330 and 767 (except for those from North America, which aren't affected as much by the restrictions).

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineManchesterMAN From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2003, 1234 posts, RR: 1
Reply 21, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 8776 times:

Quoting Geo772 (Reply 18):
Actually seat pitch is the measurement from the front of the seat back to the back of the seat back in front. This is why many quite a few carriers use very thin seat backs, it actually allows more seats to be fitted at the same pitch.

Its actually from any point on one seat to the same point on the seat in front typically the back of one seat to the back of the other. Using thinner seats just serves to give more legroom but doesn't allow more seats to be fitted unless the airline then reduces the pitch.



Flown: A300,A319,A320,A321,A330,A340.A380,717,727,737,747,757,767,777,DC9,DC10,MD11,MD80,F100,F50,ERJ,E190,CRJ,BAe146,Da
User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21582 posts, RR: 59
Reply 22, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 8583 times:

Quoting Trex8 (Reply 15):
but IIRC AF are putting that extra row into the 2nd cabin and when you add the partition to the Y cabin,

you never mentioned this in your post.

Quoting Geo772 (Reply 18):
Actually seat pitch is the measurement from the front of the seat back to the back of the seat back in front.

actually, it isn't.



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineJacobin777 From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 14968 posts, RR: 59
Reply 23, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 days ago) and read 8516 times:

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 1):
The 777 is fitted with a premium F/B/Y cabin while the A340 are fitted with a high-density tourist configuration. The 777 goes on big-money routes like CDG-LAX, CDG-JFK, etc while the the A340 goes on vacation routes like CDG-SXM.

CDG-SFO also gets the 777 during the summer months.....

Quoting Mats (Reply 8):
What about cargo capacity? How do the 777 and A340 compare to each other?

while I dont' have the exact number on me off had, the 777's beats their respective A340 in terms of carbo.....



"Up the Irons!"
User currently offlineFlySSC From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 7428 posts, RR: 57
Reply 24, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 days ago) and read 8291 times:

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 23):
CDG-SFO also gets the 777 during the summer months.....

 no 

SFO is currently served by an A343, configured with 36J/236Y

During the summer season, a B744* is used on the route, not a B777.
The B777 has been used sometimes between March and June, as a transition from the A343 to the B744, but never used on CDG-SFO on a long term regular basis.

* During the summer 2005, the B744 used to SFO were configured 13P/58J/324Y.
Next summer 2006, the B744 used to SFO will be configured 40J/393Y.


25 AirPacific747 : = SFO also gets the 777 during the summer months...[Edited 2006-01-01 19:49:58]
26 AirPacific747 : sorry... double posting[Edited 2006-01-01 19:49:42]
27 FlySSC : SFO, in summer, is scheduled with a B744. Maybe a B777 was used one day irregularly (just like in winter, an A332 was used sometimes iso an A343). It
28 Post contains images Jacobin777 : thanks AirPacific747... I've seen the 777 on multiple occasions during the late spring, early summer months as I go spotting during the summer and I
29 Post contains images FlySSC : Very few shots of an AF'B772ER at SFO. Most of them taken in ... May/June !
30 Post contains images AirPacific747 : well I know you are right yes, it may be scheduled with a B744, but that is irrelevant to the comment Jacobin777 made. All he said was that he sees t
31 Post contains images Jacobin777 : that proves my point.. thanks for clearing up the issue....
32 Post contains images AirPacific747 : ofcourse..
33 Post contains images SKA380 : I hope you haven't fitted many seats using this way of measuring. Like said before here, seat pitch is measured from one point of a seat, to the same
34 RJ111 : Careful. The A343 has slightly more room in total and also less of that taken up by pax baggage. Alternatively the 777 offers higher total payload an
35 NorthstarBoy : just for what its worth, AF 84, the sfo flight, operates January to March with an a343, March to October 28 with a 744 and switches back to an A343 on
36 Cricket : In the summer of 2004 - I flew with a friend DEL-CDG-ATL and returned JFK-CDG-DEL on AF. All four flights were on the A340, which was nice since I had
37 FlySSC : Airbus is a European company. Not only French. So Air France, as a French Airline, should buy only Airbus ? So I presume that US Airlines should buy
38 AF022 : If AF upgrades certain points to B744 in the summer - SFO, for example - what routes get downgraded? AF must have a seasonality problem, right?, with
39 Tom_eddf : Well... at least after the KLM merger, AF can't be considered as a french, national airline. There's some dutch in this company, and the state of fra
40 FlySSC : SXM goes from DAILY in winter to 5 or 6 x Weekly in summer. HAV is DAYLY in winter, 4 x Weekly in summer SGN & HAN ar served via BKK in summer but go
41 MarkATL : I'm trying to figure out which one of these statements is more ignorant.[Edited 2006-01-03 04:35:40]
42 FlySSC : Actually, I would say it the other way ... as AF owns KLM, and not the opposite. There again, you should rather say : "there's some French in this co
43 Flying Belgian : @ FLYSSC: Was the choice of putting the A343 on the second CDG-JNB flight dictated by perfo reasons or due to a lower premium demand ? FB.
44 Stoney : And the answer taken from a very informative post by Woodreau in the Tech/ops Forum (actually it's about the different speeds, but I guess the reason
45 Boeingguy1 : ...well, the AeroFlot comment is mostly true...
46 Post contains images Halls120 : Well, if it was incorporated in France under French law, legally speaking it is a French company. Just like in the US, where a company might be headq
47 FlySSC : This second flightwas started to face the increasing demand on that route, particularly in Y, that's why the A343 was chosen. The A343 has the new se
48 N1120A : Relative to the 772ER, they are highER density. Given that the 772ER is physically larger than the A343 and can carry more passengers in a similar co
49 PanAm747 : I don't think this is true. The 777 is qualified by BA to take off from SAN, fully fueled and fully loaded, and fly over the "terrain" at the end of
50 N1120A : Actually, no it isn't. It can't carry cargo if it has a full passenger load. This is why BA pulled out.
51 Birdbrainz : I'm really failing to understand why people get so upset that Airbus is referred to as a "French" company. Yes, it's true that there are many parts of
52 Trex8 : its only a big deal when some people use anything related to France/French as a derogatory remark! which unfortunately has been a little more common
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