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Unused Fifth Freedom Rights  
User currently offlineMuseAir1981 From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 10 posts, RR: 0
Posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 5816 times:

What US airlines are not currently utilizing fifth freedom rights.

31 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineCAL From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 499 posts, RR: 9
Reply 1, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 5747 times:

Not sure about US airlines but I know that AeroMexico still has rights to fly MEX-MIA-MAD and MEX-MIA-CDG. Picking up pax in MIA.
I believe DL has some thru CDG also but not completely sure.



CAL........Continental Airlines....... Work Hard, Fly Right
User currently offlineAirCop From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 5717 times:

I believe BA was granted 5th freedom from SEA to SYD after the last agreement between the two countries. Doubtful that they could ever make any money on that route.

User currently offlineThaiAggie From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 230 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 5706 times:

I think Thai has 5th freedom right from London-New York City but they have never used it.

[Edited 2006-01-01 20:21:56]


Barrow, Alaska in Feb. It was Cold!
User currently offlineEddieDude From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 7633 posts, RR: 42
Reply 4, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 5671 times:

Quoting CAL (Reply 1):
I know that AeroMexico still has rights to fly MEX-MIA-MAD and MEX-MIA-CDG.

Interesting CAL, thanks for the info. Indeed AM used to fly MEX-MIA-Europe before they had suitable aircraft to do the route non-stop, but I did not know that they had traffic rights ex-MIA. I guess there is already a lot of capacity between MIA and each of MAD and CDG these days to interest AM. In addition, with the huge demand between Europe and MEX, the strong competition that European carriers represent, and AM's lack of sufficient widebodies, I don't see AM flying MIA-Europe soon.



Next flights: MEX-GRU (AM 77E), GRU-GIG (JJ A320), SDU-CGH (G3 73H), GRU-MEX (JJ A332).
User currently offlineSHUPirate1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 3670 posts, RR: 16
Reply 5, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 5665 times:

Quoting MuseAir1981 (Thread starter):
What US airlines are not currently utilizing fifth freedom rights.

What fifth-freedom rights does Delta still have (and, for that matter, which ones did they have) from Frankfurt?



Burma's constitutional referendum options: A. Yes, B. Go to Insein Prison!
User currently offlineBigGSFO From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 2951 posts, RR: 6
Reply 6, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 5638 times:

Quoting SHUPirate1 (Reply 5):
What fifth-freedom rights does Delta still have (and, for that matter, which ones did they have) from Frankfurt?

At one point or another, Pan Am (now DL) once linked FRA with:
WAW
SVO
LED
PRG
BUD
BEG
DBV
ZAG
ATH
IST
TLV
VIE
LHR
DEL
BOM
KHI
CAI

I think they had 5th freedom on these routes.

AA might have some old 5th freedom rights within Europe/Middle East inherited from TWA.


User currently offlineEWROwznj00 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 5610 times:

I'm pretty sure Delta used to do New York-Frankfurt-Delhi, and maybe Bombay. But I don't think they fly beyond Frankfurt anymore, and now use CDG as their base European base, so to speak. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Edit: Another one comes to mind is UA's LHR-DEL, and DEL-HKG. Do they still own these rights?

[Edited 2006-01-01 21:10:11]

User currently offlineAmirs From Israel, joined Dec 2003, 1333 posts, RR: 4
Reply 8, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 5596 times:

Pan Am had CDG - TLV rights and I think so does DL.

I wonder if LY still has JFK - LHR/AMS ans EWR - STN.


User currently offlineJacobin777 From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 14968 posts, RR: 59
Reply 9, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 5578 times:

Quoting BigGSFO (Reply 6):

AA might have some old 5th freedom rights within Europe/Middle East inherited from TWA.

I think AA has 5th freedom rights from BRU-India.....so they can fly from ORD-BRU-DEL, etc. if they want to.....



"Up the Irons!"
User currently offlineDeltaGator From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 6341 posts, RR: 13
Reply 10, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 5546 times:

Quoting CAL (Reply 1):
I believe DL has some thru CDG also but not completely sure.

DL uses CDG to originate flights to Mumbai and Chennai.



"If you can't delight in the misery of others then you don't deserve to be a college football fan."
User currently offlineTpaewr From United States of America, joined May 2001, 453 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 5528 times:

FF flew from CDG to ATH and TLV as I recall.


SA)">CO has slowly reduced it's various 5ths in SA. Justing ending now is PTY-UIO. Outside the Americas SA)">CO also flew TPE-SEL a few years back.


User currently offlineVV701 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2005, 7737 posts, RR: 17
Reply 12, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 5456 times:

Quoting MuseAir1981 (Thread starter):
What US airlines are not currently utilizing fifth freedom rights.

United. US airlines have, under the Bermuda 2 Agreement, fifth freedom rights between London and four German cities - Berlin, Frankfurt, Hamburg and Munich. PanAm and then United had a fleet of 727s based in Europe to operate these and other fifth freedom flights within Europe (that I cannot recall the details of although one linked a German city with Krakow in Poland). (I know this because I flew from London to Krakow via a German city on a single 727 probably 15 years ago.) I also believe that United has unused fifth freedom rights from Prestwick to Oslo!


User currently offlineGemuser From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 5827 posts, RR: 6
Reply 13, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 5347 times:

Any US airline has fifth freedom right from Australia to Asia. Not sure of exact cities/countries but certainly include SIN, BKK, Jakata and Japan. There may be capacity limitations.

In return Qf have fifth freedom US to Europe.

None of the above are currently being used.

Gemuser



DC23468910;B72172273373G73873H74374475275376377L77W;A319 320321332333343;BAe146;C402;DHC6;F27;L188;MD80MD85
User currently offlineB4real From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 2661 posts, RR: 5
Reply 14, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 5325 times:

Quoting EWROwznj00 (Reply 7):
I'm pretty sure Delta used to do New York-Frankfurt-Delhi, and maybe Bombay

DL's India access was JFK-FRA-BOM historically. Then it was moved JFK-CDG-BOM in 2002 or 2003 with growth of SkyTeam. In holiday rush 2004, they reinstated JFK-FRA-BOM parallel to JFK-CDG-BOM, but did not do it holiday rush 2005. In 2005 they added JFK-CDG-MAA.



B4REAL, spelled like it sounds
User currently offlineEWROwznj00 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 5200 times:

Delta didn't do FRA-DEL also? I was almost sure they did; I though they gained that/both from Pan Am. Oh well. Do they plan on flying to Delhi in the future? OR are they going to leave that to KLM/AF?

User currently offlineRwSEA From Netherlands, joined Jan 2005, 3135 posts, RR: 2
Reply 16, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 5135 times:

Quoting EWROwznj00 (Reply 15):
Delta didn't do FRA-DEL also? I was almost sure they did; I though they gained that/both from Pan Am. Oh well. Do they plan on flying to Delhi in the future? OR are they going to leave that to KLM/AF?

I don't think DL would plan on DEL in the future, especially now that CO and AA are both offering nonstops from the U.S. I would assume that DL would prefer to focus on BOM and Chennai for the time being. If they were to consider a new destination in India, I would put my $$ on BLR.

DEL is a huge city, but not as much business traffic as Bombay, Chennai, or Bangalore.


User currently offlineMasseyBrown From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 5601 posts, RR: 7
Reply 17, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 5105 times:

In the 1970-80s TWA had a pretty extensive operation beyond Paris; some were through flights and some were change-of-gauge 727s. The cities I can remember were Geneva, Milan, Rome, Athens, and Tel Aviv. I believe their round-the-world flight also went through Paris.


I love long German words like 'Freundschaftsbezeigungen'.
User currently offlineCentrair From Japan, joined Jan 2005, 3599 posts, RR: 20
Reply 18, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 5031 times:

I think that NW had a 5th freedom to OZ from Japan that they used once and then gave it up. I might be wrong.


Yes...I am not a KIX fan. Let's Japanese Aviation!
User currently offlineEWROwznj00 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 4906 times:

Quoting Centrair (Reply 18):
I think that NW had a 5th freedom to OZ from Japan that they used once and then gave it up. I might be wrong.

If I'm remembering correctly, Northwest flew, or wanted to fly from Tokyo or Osaka to Sydney, the basis of which was the 1952 bilateral agreement between the US and Japan. I remember seeing an old UA route map with a similar proposed route, but I don't think anything came of the UA route.


With respect to Japan, are United and Northwest are the only US airlines that still enjoy 5th freedom rights beyond Japan? I know the bilateral was reworked, but I don't know the details off the top of my head. Please correct if I'm wrong.


User currently offlineBOSSAN From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 255 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 4796 times:

NW operated JFK-OSA-SYD thrice weekly, but Australia claimed NW was in violation of the US-OZ bilateral and Japan protested that the proportion of Japan-Australia traffic was too high. NW was required to limit its fifth-freedom Japan-Australia traffic to 50% of the passenger load. This resulted in some great New York-Australia fare sales and eventual abandonment of the flight. http://airtransportbiz.free.fr/Networks/NWAustralia.html

User currently offlineZK-NBT From New Zealand, joined Oct 2000, 5359 posts, RR: 11
Reply 21, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 4728 times:

UA from AKL-MEL and I think any Australian city ex AKL. They don't even serve AKL anymore.

User currently offlineCospn From Northern Mariana Islands, joined Oct 2001, 1653 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 4598 times:

the Old CO classic trans- Tasman 747's and DC-10's with Pubs  Smile

AKL-BNE,SYD,MEL


User currently offlineMarkATL From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 540 posts, RR: 7
Reply 23, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 4566 times:

I don't know if it's still true, but at one time flying to DEL by US carriers was very diffilcult. US carriers were (are?) prohibited from by the US government from overflying Afghanistan. This required a much longer time/fuel consuming routing to DEL from the UK/Europe. This was one of the reasons for DL (FRA) and UA (LHR) dropped it as a destination.


"...left my home in Georgia, 'n headed for the "Frisco" Bay...
User currently offlineEWROwznj00 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 4426 times:

Overflying Iran was a problem too I think. It added an extra hour of flying time, and then after 9/11, Afghan airspace was closed to US carriers, which made the DEL routing hard. Anyone know why UA only used the 767 on this route, I would imagine they could have filled a 777 or a 747 easily from LHR. Also, what route does NW's AMS-BOM take; does it enter Iranian airspace or not? Is Iranian airspace even an issue?

25 AirScoot : The AKL to MEL sector wasn't 5th freedom if I remember correctly. It had to be stopover/online connection traffic only... It's been ages since I've s
26 TAN FLYR : A few years back, when AA bought TW there was a thread on here listing all the routes that AA had acquired with the TWA purchase. IIRC, there is also
27 Justapassenger : The recent Hong Kong/US bilateral gave US airlines fifth freedom rights to five (?) new cities. United flies to Hanoi from Hong Kong, so the other fou
28 Alexinwa : BA SEA-SYD non-stop would be something to see. I wonder if it could be done non-stop both ways?? I know AC could only do SYD-YVR non-stop, HNL was the
29 Kubus : DL had them through FRA in early 90's. My first DL flight was in '93 WAW-PRG-FRA, I have no idea what aircraft it was but I do remember Delta colors a
30 FlyboyOz : Qantas used to fly HKG-SIN-HKG but never use it for age since SAR in HKG.
31 PPVRA : I believe it's UAL that holds right's to fly USA-GRU-South Africa. And AA recently stopped, or is about to, their GRU-ASU leg. Cheers
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