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Vaporware Order - 100 A320's For IndiGo  
User currently offlineClickhappy From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 9664 posts, RR: 68
Posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 9701 times:
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Has anyone heard any more about the 100 A320's that IndiGo 'ordered' back in June?

They announced at the time of the order they would start flying between Nov 2005 - February 2006, and yet I don't think there has been any news. I would assume they would have planes in production and be doing route proving by now?

Also, did Airbus count this 100 plane order in their 2005 totals, or was it (more than likely) never finalized.

100 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineScorpio From Belgium, joined Oct 2001, 5052 posts, RR: 44
Reply 1, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 9661 times:

The deal was finalized and signed in November: 70 A320s and 30 A321s.

User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21583 posts, RR: 59
Reply 2, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 9638 times:

did they start ops with other jets?


Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineN79969 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 9588 times:

Quoting Clickhappy (Thread starter):
They announced at the time of the order they would start flying between Nov 2005 - February 2006, and yet I don't think there has been any news. I would assume they would have planes in production and be doing route proving by now?

Don't know much about Indigo other than they have some high-caliber executives who held senior positions at USAirways, United, and Air France.


User currently offlineBestWestern From Hong Kong, joined Sep 2000, 7304 posts, RR: 57
Reply 4, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 9568 times:

Quoting N79969 (Reply 3):
high-caliber executives

Including fomer CEO of US airways as a major investor.

Quoting Scorpio (Reply 1):
70 A320s and 30 A321s

Very impressive order



The world is really getting smaller these days
User currently offlineClickhappy From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 9664 posts, RR: 68
Reply 5, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 9428 times:
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so, they are on track for launch by mid-Feb? Anyone have a picture of their livery?

User currently offlineToxtethogrady From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 1459 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 8749 times:

"Has anyone heard any more about the 100 A320's that IndiGo 'ordered' back in June?"

Rakesh Gangwal strikes again...


User currently offlineBoeingBus From United States of America, joined May 2004, 1597 posts, RR: 17
Reply 7, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 8660 times:

Quoting Scorpio (Reply 1):
The deal was finalized and signed in November: 70 A320s and 30 A321s.

are you sure about this? link?



Airbus or Boeing - it's all good to me!
User currently offlinePanAm_DC10 From Australia, joined Aug 2000, 4217 posts, RR: 89
Reply 8, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 8617 times:
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Quoting BoeingBus (Reply 7):
Quoting Scorpio (Reply 1):
The deal was finalized and signed in November: 70 A320s and 30 A321s.

are you sure about this? link?

Most definately is the answer to that question. Here is a link

http://www.airbus.com/en/corporate/orders_and_deliveries/#

Open the spreadsheet and look at the orders tab and you'll see it listed on November 18 2005.

Regards, PanAm_DC10



Ask the impossible to achieve the best possible
User currently offlineDan2002 From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 2055 posts, RR: 5
Reply 9, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 8458 times:

Quoting BestWestern (Reply 4):
Including fomer CEO of US airways as a major investor.

We all see how well US was doing :P

Dan



A guy asks 'What's Punk?'. I kick over a trash can and its punk. He knocks over a trash can and its trendy.
User currently offlineGigneil From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 16347 posts, RR: 85
Reply 10, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 8450 times:

When Rakesh Gangwal was CEO of US, they were amongst the most profitable airlines out there.

N


User currently offlineDan2002 From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 2055 posts, RR: 5
Reply 11, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 8289 times:

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 10):
When Rakesh Gangwal was CEO of US, they were amongst the most profitable airlines out there.

Oops. It was a tongue in cheek (joke, whatever) statement anyways, hence the :P.



A guy asks 'What's Punk?'. I kick over a trash can and its punk. He knocks over a trash can and its trendy.
User currently offlineNimish From India, joined Feb 2005, 3284 posts, RR: 10
Reply 12, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days ago) and read 8150 times:

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 2):
did they start ops with other jets?

No - they've not started ops in India so far. I'm actually surprised to hear that they went ahead and confirmed the order for 70+30. All the best to them!

The last (rumours) were that they were been given a tough time by the Govt, since there's really no parking space for a 100 aircraft at the major metro airports. Their main choice would have been to park at non-metros, and even that would be a stretch to park more than a few. Is the delivery schedule for these 100 published anywhere? My guess is that a lot of the aircraft are a long way away from delivery.



Latest Trip Report - GoAir BLR-BOM-BLR
User currently offlineMariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25693 posts, RR: 85
Reply 13, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days ago) and read 8120 times:
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Quoting Gigneil (Reply 10):
When Rakesh Gangwal was CEO of US, they were amongst the most profitable airlines out there.

I'd be a bit happier if you had included Stephen Wolf in that.

I know he and Rakesh Gangwal were a double act (Wolf-gang) but It was Stephen Wolf who had turned US around - with Gangwal as COO.

Gangwal became CEO in 1998 and the airline made $538 million, but obviously Wolf had sewn the seed.

After that, it was all down hill again, with big losses by 2000 and huge losses by 2001, when Gangwal left.

cheers

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineCricket From India, joined Aug 2005, 2972 posts, RR: 7
Reply 14, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 7796 times:

The other investor in the project - the majority investor is Interglobe Enterprises - A Delhi registered and Gurgaon HQed Travel Agency, Hotel Operator and GSA (who operate Galileo in India) which is owned by a character known as Rahul Bhatia. While they make money it is nowehere in the league of the at least $ 5 billion they will need to raise to finance the planes and start operations. That said, if you notice employment supplements such as Times of India's Ascent on Wednesday you will notice that they (along with the Wadia's GoAir) are taking out ads for ground staff, cabin crew and pilots. I don't know where they will raise the moolah for the airline, banks in India are getting wary of financing wild start-ups, and though the economy is awash in cash, Indigo's business model is nothing unique.
As for the parking bay shortage, at the rate planes are being added to the Indian skyline, we'll have to start parking planes in Pakistan and Nepal.
And a Happy New Year to all of you!



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User currently offlineDanny From Poland, joined Apr 2002, 3516 posts, RR: 3
Reply 15, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 7760 times:

Quoting Clickhappy (Thread starter):
Also, did Airbus count this 100 plane order in their 2005 totals, or was it (more than likely) never finalized.

Why not simply check on Airbus.com? You would have easily found this:
http://www.airbus.com/en/corporate/orders_and_deliveries/#

Talking about vaporware orders... nothing can beat Primaris  Wink


User currently offlineDhefty From United States of America, joined May 2005, 599 posts, RR: 3
Reply 16, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 7708 times:

Quoting Danny (Reply 15):
Talking about vaporware orders... nothing can beat Primaris

And just where do you find Primaris listed by Boeing as a firm order? I don't see it on the Orders & Deliveries page.

100 does seem rather excessive for a start-up in India. It exposes Airbus to a lot of risk. They perhaps should have started with 20 firm, and 80 options, since the customer has no track record.


User currently offlineJonathan-l From France, joined Mar 2002, 507 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 7607 times:

Quoting Dhefty (Reply 16):
They perhaps should have started with 20 firm, and 80 options

I don't think manufacturers will ever allow more options than firm orders.


User currently offlineJoost From Netherlands, joined Apr 2005, 3186 posts, RR: 4
Reply 18, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 7567 times:

Quoting Jonathan-l (Reply 17):
I don't think manufacturers will ever allow more options than firm orders.

Why not? It depends on the price of the option they want to pay.

IIRC, KLM ordererd 6 A330-200s and took options on 18.


User currently offlineSammyk From United States of America, joined Oct 1999, 1690 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 7486 times:
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Quoting Dhefty (Reply 16):
And just where do you find Primaris listed by Boeing as a firm order?

You can't, hence it is vaporware.

Quoting Jonathan-l (Reply 17):
I don't think manufacturers will ever allow more options than firm orders.

Wasn't Northwest's 787 order for 18 plus 50 options, or were those purchase rights or something? Also the recent Cathay Pacific order was for 12 777s and 20 options.


User currently offlineGigneil From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 16347 posts, RR: 85
Reply 20, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 7447 times:

Quoting Mariner (Reply 13):
I'd be a bit happier if you had included Stephen Wolf in that.

I don't disagree... I was just pointing out the specific incidence in time.

N


User currently offlineScottB From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 6826 posts, RR: 32
Reply 21, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 7197 times:

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 10):
When Rakesh Gangwal was CEO of US, they were amongst the most profitable airlines out there.

Actually, he was CEO as the wheels were coming off the bus. US Airways lost money in 2000 -- a year in which Delta posted an enormous operating profit of over $1.6 billion and Southwest made $1 billion as well. In 1999, US's operating profit of $136 million lagged most of their peers; Continental's was over 350% larger at $615 million while Southwest's was nearly 500% higher at $782 million.

While US Airways posted healthy profits during the mid-1990's, the Wolf-Gangwal leadership team failed to effectively prepare US Airways for a foreseeable wave of LCC competition across the company's network. September 11 only hastened the day of reckoning, especially at US since management had spent its profits on stock buybacks (to pump up the share price) rather than on reducing debt. The UAL merger (or merger with any larger carrier) was really the only exit strategy possible.


User currently offlineScbriml From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2003, 12888 posts, RR: 46
Reply 22, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 7049 times:
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Quoting Clickhappy (Thread starter):
Has anyone heard any more about the 100 A320's that IndiGo 'ordered' back in June?

You really should do some checking before starting you next round of Airbus bashing!

Quoting Nimish (Reply 12):
since there's really no parking space for a 100 aircraft at the major metro airports.

It's not like they're all going to be delivered next week is it?

Quoting Dhefty (Reply 16):
And just where do you find Primaris listed by Boeing as a firm order? I don't see it on the Orders & Deliveries page.

Exactly the point!  wink 

Quoting Dhefty (Reply 16):
It exposes Airbus to a lot of risk.

How exactly? If Indigo flourishes they're an Airbus customer, if they fail it costs Airbus nothing (they'll probably even have planes that can be delivered to other customers more quickly). Hardly a lose-lose situation!  wink 



Time flies like an arrow, but fruit flies like a banana! #44cHAMpion
User currently offlineBestWestern From Hong Kong, joined Sep 2000, 7304 posts, RR: 57
Reply 23, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 6961 times:

http://www.blonnet.com/2005/11/23/stories/2005112303300900.htm

PRIVATE low cost carrier Indigo Airlines on Tuesday said it might launch operations by February next year by taking aircraft on lease.

"The induction of aircraft will start from July next year but we are exploring if we want to accelerate the launch of the airline to February by doing short-term leases of aircraft. We hope to announce the launch date in 6-8 weeks. It could be as early as February or March and no later than July next year," Mr Rahul Bhatia, Managing Director of Interglobe Enterprises Ltd, said.

The airline is being jointly promoted by Mr Rakesh Gangwal and Interglobe Enterprises.



The world is really getting smaller these days
User currently offlineKappel From Suriname, joined Jul 2005, 3533 posts, RR: 17
Reply 24, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 6736 times:

Quoting Dhefty (Reply 16):
100 does seem rather excessive for a start-up in India. It exposes Airbus to a lot of risk

No guts no glory. Just like when JetBlue ordered 100 a320's. It was a big risk for aribus, but it turned out ok (so far)

Quoting Scorpio (Reply 1):
The deal was finalized and signed in November: 70 A320s and 30 A321s.

They have even already selected the IAE engine for their aircraft. Definitely not vaporware. Especially with the backing of InterGlobe, and people who know the industry.



L1011,733,734,73G,738,743,744,752,763,772,77W,DC855,DC863,DC930,DC950,MD11,MD88,306,319,320,321,343,346,ARJ85,CR7,E195
25 CX flyboy : I thought this was the A320s titles Go-Air, which have been flying around for a couple of months now? I saw VT-WAZ in BOM and apparently they have a V
26 BestWestern : Lets not let any facts ruin a 'lets put airbus down' story.
27 Kappel : Go Air is again a different LCC startup in India. With my albeit limited knowledge of the industry I think that after Jet and Deccan(who are already
28 BestWestern : This thread was about clickhappys belief that airbus had a vaporware order, which suited his pro boeing monologue. The order is now confirmed, and In
29 Nimish : I wish you'd have read my post a bit more carefully. The very next line after the one you quoted was "My guess is that a lot of the aircraft are a lo
30 Post contains images Scbriml : I posted just a bit too quickly - wasn't intended as a criticism of your post. But basically, we're agreeing.
31 Cricket : Um, if you read my earlier post, you will see that the political and financial aspects aren't exactly clear.
32 Dhefty : I don't follow your reasoning. You seem to imply that Airbus can't lose in this situation, whereas I would say they have a lot to lose if the venture
33 Post contains images Scbriml : Let's say Indigo takes delivery of their first 10 A320s, then dies. At that point Airbus loses the remaining 90 orders from Indigo, but has productio
34 APFPilot1985 : what is your source for that.
35 Dhefty : Well, by your line of reckoning, Boeing should list 100 to Jet, 100 to Spice and any other startup that comes along, since the 737 is an equally hot
36 Post contains images Lightsaber : Its rare and has risk. For an airline like KLM to get more options is more likely than a start up. It also depends on how the options are set up. (Pa
37 N79969 : Wolf and Gangwal are competent managers. But I think they are ultimately shakedown artists. Considering the services they provided, the compensation t
38 Astuteman : Answer is:- All of this information was contained in the FI article last month which covered the firming of the order. IAE were also quoted as saying
39 Post contains images Scbriml : Well it takes two to tango - if Spice wanted to buy 100 737s are you saying Boeing wouldn't sell to them because it was too risky? How about 20 737s
40 Dhefty : So shakedown artists are very useful? Hmmmm..... Airbus now has $4 Billion on the order books for the "shakedown artists".
41 Stitch : If a customer is willing to put delivery slot deposits down on 100 aircraft, who is Airbus or Boeing to tell them to shove off? The customer has to p
42 APFPilot1985 : A documented un-biased source? Or is that too much to ask?
43 Post contains images Atmx2000 : There was something fundamentally wrong with the US Air business model that led it into Chapter 11 twice in a very short period of time. Prior manage
44 Post contains links Scorpio : www.boeing.com www.airbus.com
45 Post contains links APFPilot1985 : " target=_blank>www.airbus.com oh ok, thanks http://www.boeing.com/commercial/737...amily/news/2005/q4/051221a_nr.html "total orders for the all-time,
46 Scorpio : You're actually going to start this crap here? But oh well... Look at the sales figures for the last, say, five years, and tell me which one is selli
47 APFPilot1985 : My airbus number is taken right from their site. If you want to arbitrarily pick terms then go ahead and do it. But to say the best selling could go
48 UAL747-600 : Does anyone else recall an interview with the Indigo CEO right after the order was placed saying how they originally only planned on ordering 20?? UAL
49 Scorpio : Sure, but it's the wrong number: it's the number of aircraft in operation today. The number of orders (end of November) is 3914. Your Boeing number i
50 HZ747300 : By Vaporware order I assume we can also include 40 787s from Primaris, right?
51 APFPilot1985 : You mean the ones that aren't listed on Boeings site as opposed to the IndiGo order which is listed on Airbuses site?
52 N79969 : I say at the outset that he is competent. But I doubt that Gangwal has managed to squeeze out the same absurd levels of money he got from USAirways o
53 Clickhappy : Yes, I agree that the whole Primaris announcement was a silly thing, but it was never an order. Did they really announce 40 787's or is that simply Ai
54 Clickhappy : If Boeing "won't sell" to a certain airline, you'd have to ask them why not! In fact this has happened, Boeing tried to talk Air Berlin out of such a
55 A330323X : Wolf was always the big-picture guy. Gangwal was the operations guy. Gangwal was also the last exec at US that was actually respected by labor. They
56 Dhefty : It's partially the right answer, but it's mainly the wrong question. The Right Question: How many narrow-bodies has Boeing sold from 2000 through 200
57 N79969 : Fair enough...he was the ranking beneficiary of Wolf's raids on USAirways bank accounts.
58 Post contains links Mariner : Not just from US Air. Rono - (market share trumps profitability) - Dutta, who used to be president at United, is now the CEO of Air Sahara. http://ww
59 DfwRevolution : Primaris made an LoI for twenty 787, but never placed the order deposit. Thus, Boeing has not yet claimed Primaris as a 787 order. Airbus is historic
60 RedFlyer : Wasn't Gangwal heading up the failed merger with UA and it was during that endeavor that he carried the title of CEO? If I recall, when the merger fa
61 N79969 : Wolf was in charge I thought...I think it was UA that wanted out.
62 RedFlyer : I thought the feds blocked the merger? Or is my age catching up with my memory?
63 Post contains links Mariner : I'd need to do some research of the dates and who did what, when. But it was Wolf's idea to merge - he was the visionary, he gave both airlines the b
64 Post contains links N79969 : They did. But I think United finally figured out that USAirways was not worth $60/share or whatever it was they offering before the Feds objected. Ag
65 Cricket : Despite what Gangwal did or did not do in the US, he comes from a highly respected family in Calcutta, his brother is a prominent businessman in India
66 Astuteman : Sorry guys, this negative flavour doesn't stack up for me. The orders have been placed and signed for both the aircraft and the engines, and deposits
67 Sammyk : Surely Indigo has a clue. Also, it's not like they have to raise the entire $5 Billion at once. They have to raise enough for the deposits as the bul
68 Post contains images Scbriml : It would have been if Clickhappy had avoided his inevitable Airbus bash in his choice of thread title. A few seconds of research would have answered
69 Scorpio : Um... when was this discussion ever about the 717 or 757? Oh wait, it wasn't. Ever. It was about the A320 and 737. Oh, and speaking of 'conveniently
70 Post contains links PanAm_DC10 : Why don't we just wait until both Airbus and Boeing release their final order summations so that 2005 can be included. At this stage the data, availa
71 BestWestern : Former boeing arrogance, or just an excuse for not winning the contract?
72 Kappel : Most certainly that. Just like with Easyjet, JetBlue, United, Frontier. Boeing was arrogant enough to tell the airlines what they should buy and how
73 BestWestern : Its Amazing that companies become complacent about being number 1, and this leads to arrogance. Look at Coca Cola - Pepsico is now a larger company t
74 GARPD : Oh come on, you and I both know that's just spin. The 737 with just having sold 6000 frames would better fit that category in reality. It also was th
75 Post contains images Scbriml : But, it seems, it's not spin to count 2 or 3 generations of 737s sold over nearly 40 years as one? When Flight International publishes their annual a
76 Scorpio : Again, look at the last several years of sales: it IS the fastest selling plane, whether you like that or not (being Boeing's biggest cheerleader and
77 GARPD : I read what I see and come to my own conclusions. As for being a Boeing cheerleader, I'm far from it. Not that I need to justify myself, but I have b
78 Post contains images Scorpio : LOL! You keep telling yourself that
79 BestWestern : Indigo equipment choice Rockwell avionics IAE Weber Aircraft seats Hamilton Sundstrand APU
80 Clickhappy : So, they said on Nov 22 they "hope to announce the launch date in 6-8 weeks." That means an announcement could come as soon as today (6 weeks from 22N
81 GARPD : Laughing doesn't make your unqualified assessment any more accurate. Responding to someones factual post makes me biased? Why don't you two learn to
82 Scbriml : Agreed - I missed it on my first read through.
83 Scorpio : There's no more qualification needed than the posts you've made yourself here, they speak for themselves. You claim to be unbiased? I'm sorry, but th
84 Dhefty : I beg to differ! And I can back it up with statistics, which you and others, including Scorpio, fail to do. The A320 was first offered for sale in 19
85 Post contains images Scbriml : Airbus A320 family sales to end 2005 - 4,000+ (exact figure not yet known) Boeing 737NG family sales to end 2005 just about 3,000 (ditto) Boeing 737C
86 Clickhappy : Of course, Boeing has built more 737's then Airbus has sold planes, but it is irrelevant to my original topic, isn't it.
87 Dhefty : I have to admit much of what you say is true, but unfortunately you incorrectly listed the wrong aircraft. Your statement should read as follows: The
88 Post contains images Scbriml : We'll see which family of aircraft Flight International says is the most popular when they publish their annual Airline Census. Care to wager some mo
89 GARPD : We all know the result of a census depends on who you talk to. Airlines operating the A320 are hardly going to say "oh we wish we had 737s" or vice v
90 Ikramerica : both grew via acquiring brands and introducing things like waters and sports drinks and other products that have nothing to do with who prefers coke
91 Post contains images Scbriml : I think you're missing what the FI World Airliner Census is - it's just like a Government census. It lists every airline in the World and the planes
92 Post contains images Lehpron : i really read this whole darn thread... First of all, what is vaporware? I get the impression it implies a giant order. Unless I interpreted this wron
93 Scbriml : It's a term derived from the IT world where a software manufacturer will tell the World how wonderful their next version of product x will be. Of cou
94 Post contains images Scorpio : 'vaporware' is an order that is 'announced' at one point, then never heard of again: never really signed, never delivered. Like the Primaris 787 orde
95 Post contains images Lehpron : I thank you gentlemen for helping me out regarding vaporware, I honestly never heard the word before today. I hpe you wouldn't mind giving me IT exam
96 Post contains images Scbriml : Difficult your chosen path is. Experience much pain you will. May the 4th be with you.
97 Dhefty : Opinions certainly come into play when defining exactly what constitutes a "family" of aircraft, and Airbus is expert at spinning it their way. For e
98 Ikramerica : The 737 "classic" was on sale at the same time as the A320 in the forms of 733/734/735, introduced to compete with the A320 family proposed in 1982.
99 Post contains images Scbriml : Took me a while to find this from Flight's 2005 Airline Census:
100 BestWestern : Flight Intl Biased towards Airbus? Since when? Anyway, Boeing can, and still holds positions 2-10... Wow!
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