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Alitalia 747-400  
User currently offlineKaitak744 From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 2368 posts, RR: 3
Posted (8 years 7 months 4 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 9213 times:

I came across this while going through Boeing's picture archive. Does anyone know exactly when Alitalia placed this order and why Alitalia cancelled the order?

http://boeingmedia.com/imageDetail.c...&BuId=0&caid=3&prid=0&sc=lrg&pn=29

37 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineAlcregular From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (8 years 7 months 4 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 9205 times:

No, but probably because they can't afford them. But I do know the aircrafts went to Virgin Atlantic Airways in 2001.

User currently offlinePanAm_DC10 From Australia, joined Aug 2000, 4143 posts, RR: 90
Reply 2, posted (8 years 7 months 4 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 9186 times:
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Quoting Alcregular (Reply 1):
But I do know the aircrafts went to Virgin Atlantic Airways in 2001

That is correct, IIRC, AZ switched to 6 x 772ERs in a package with options and Purchase Rights for up to a total of 18 frames, including 6 773ERs. That said, only the 6 772ERs were "firm". Unfortunately their financial situation has inhibited their ability to expand on the original 777 order.

Regards, PanAm_DC10



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User currently offlineAlitalia744 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 4748 posts, RR: 45
Reply 3, posted (8 years 7 months 4 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 9185 times:

Quoting Alcregular (Reply 1):
No, but probably because they can't afford them. But I do know the aircrafts went to Virgin Atlantic Airways in 2001

No. Not at all.

The 744 were ordered during the period of partnership with KLM. Therefore creating synergy among their fleets as well as a/c that could operate routes where capacity was neecded (assuming pax would funnel through MXP/FCO for certain routes vs. flying through AMS).

After the break-up, AZ switched their 5 744 order to 6 772ERs. The 772 is more suited to AZ's international flights given lower capacity. AZ has limited routes which could at the time accommodate a 744 (NRT + JFK/MIA seasonally). Therefore, the 772 made sense from a capacity/cost perspective.

There has been a previous discussion on AZ's international load-factors, but from what I hear the JFK/NRT/GRU/EZE flights all operate at pretty high load factors. AZ took this into consideration when they placed their 777 order with Boeing allowing them to convert their options into 773ER a/c. To date AZ has yet to do so, but I would love seeing a 773ER in their colors...

Hope that helps.



Some see lines, others see between the lines.
User currently offlineKiwiandrew From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 8551 posts, RR: 13
Reply 4, posted (8 years 7 months 4 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 9180 times:
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Quoting Kaitak744 (Thread starter):
why Alitalia cancelled the order?

AZ swapped order to 777s which better suited AZs network - then the 744s went to VS as per Alcregular



Moderation in all things ... including moderation ;-)
User currently offlineAlitalia744 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 4748 posts, RR: 45
Reply 5, posted (8 years 7 months 4 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 9177 times:

Quoting PanAm_DC10 (Reply 2):
That said, only the 6 772ERs were "firm". Unfortunately their financial situation has inhibited their ability to expand on the original 777 order.

Only 6 were firmed directly through Boeing. AZ took an additional 4 a/c via GECAS.

Look for additional 777s to join the AZ fleet over the next two years.



Some see lines, others see between the lines.
User currently offlineFlyCaledonian From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2003, 2082 posts, RR: 3
Reply 6, posted (8 years 7 months 4 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 8729 times:

Alitalia744, if the five Boeing 747-400s had on order never went to Virgin Atlantic, how comes VS operates five 747-443s? Last I knew 43 was the Boeing customer code for AZ and not VS (which is 1R for those who might be interested)

From Jethro's UK & Ireland Airline Fleet Listings

G-VROS Boeing 747-443 30885/1268 22 Mar 01 English Rose
G-VGAL Boeing 747-443 32337/1272 26 Apr 01 Jersey Girl
G-VLIP Boeing 747-443 32338/1274 15 May 01 Hot Lip
G-VROM Boeing 747-443 32339/1275 29 May 01 Barbarella
G-VROY Boeing 747-443 32340/1277 18 Jun 01 Pretty Woman



Let's Go British Caledonian!
User currently offlineJetset7E7 From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2004, 1090 posts, RR: 15
Reply 7, posted (8 years 7 months 4 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 8697 times:

Quoting FlyCaledonian (Reply 6):
Alitalia744, if the five Boeing 747-400s had on order never went to Virgin Atlantic, how comes VS operates five 747-443s? Last I knew 43 was the Boeing customer code for AZ and not VS (which is 1R for those who might be interested)

I don't really know much about this, but I think it might of been that VS wanted more 744's, and Boeing had already started buildling 5 for AZ, when they pulled out, VS came along, thank you very much.

Mark



Retrofitted Blended Winglets - The Future Is On The Wing
User currently offlineKiwiandrew From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 8551 posts, RR: 13
Reply 8, posted (8 years 7 months 4 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 8696 times:
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Quoting FlyCaledonian (Reply 6):
Alitalia744, if the five Boeing 747-400s had on order never went to Virgin Atlantic, how comes VS operates five 747-443s? Last I knew 43 was the Boeing customer code for AZ and not VS (which is 1R for those who might be interested)

Hi FlyCaledonian

I think when Alitalia744 said "No. Not at all." he was responding to the first half of Alcregular's comment

Quoting Alcregular (Reply 1):
No, but probably because they can't afford them. But I do know the aircrafts went to Virgin Atlantic Airways in 2001.

ie , I dont think that he was disagreeing about the a/c going to VS - but rather about AZ not being able to afford them being the reason for non-delivery to AZ



Moderation in all things ... including moderation ;-)
User currently offline797 From Venezuela, joined Aug 2005, 1894 posts, RR: 27
Reply 9, posted (8 years 7 months 4 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 8620 times:

I got all excited wen saw the picture  Sad


Flying isn't dangerous. Crashing is what's dangerous!
User currently offlineAlitalia744 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 4748 posts, RR: 45
Reply 10, posted (8 years 7 months 4 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 8554 times:

Quoting FlyCaledonian (Reply 6):
Alitalia744, if the five Boeing 747-400s had on order never went to Virgin Atlantic, how comes VS operates five 747-443s? Last I knew 43 was the Boeing customer code for AZ and not VS (which is 1R for those who might be interested)

Fly - my comment was in regard to the statement about Alitalia not being able to afford them portion. They obviously could afford the a/c as they ended up buying 6 directly from Boeing.

Please don't educate me on Alitalia's Boeing customer code. Nowhere in my posts did I say the a/c were not built, nor did I deny that they were delivered to Virgin Atlantic. There was a press release regarding this directly on Boeing's website some time ago. In fact, the 747-443s were delivered with AZ seating (albeit in different colors) to VS.

Quoting Kiwiandrew (Reply 8):
I think when Alitalia744 said "No. Not at all." he was responding to the first half of Alcregular's comment

Thanks dude!



Some see lines, others see between the lines.
User currently offlineWingedarrow From Italy, joined May 2005, 169 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (8 years 7 months 4 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 8501 times:

Quoting Alitalia744 (Reply 3):
The 744 were ordered during the period of partnership with KLM.

That has been one of the worst periods ever in Alitalia's history. In any case, even if getting some 747-400s would have helped, I think we're happier now with the 777s. Anyway, I'd rather prefere to see Alitalia going all Airbus:

- 20xA340 for North/South America, Asia and Australia;
- 10xA330 for Africa and the Middle East;
- all the Airbus we already have for domestic/european network and those needed to replace the MD80s, the ERJ145s, ERJ170s and the ATRs.

...and FCO as the only airline's hub!!!



אליטליה
User currently offlineAlitalia744 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 4748 posts, RR: 45
Reply 12, posted (8 years 7 months 4 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 8465 times:

Quoting Wingedarrow (Reply 11):
That has been one of the worst periods ever in Alitalia's history. In any case, even if getting some 747-400s would have helped, I think we're happier now with the 777s. Anyway, I'd rather prefere to see Alitalia going all Airbus:

- 20xA340 for North/South America, Asia and Australia;
- 10xA330 for Africa and the Middle East;
- all the Airbus we already have for domestic/european network and those needed to replace the MD80s, the ERJ145s, ERJ170s and the ATRs.

...and FCO as the only airline's hub!!!

I'll have to disagree with you here. I think the ideal fleet is one which AZ is on the path to create:

- Boeing Long-haul centered on 777/767 (future inclusion of 787 as we know AZ wants it)
- Airbus Short/Medium-haul fleet centered on A32X series.
- Short/regional fleet centered on Embraer series jets - ERJ145/EMB170 (as well as adding EMB190s).

AZ has always preferred Boeing widebodies, I think this trend will continue. From what I hear, the 777 is doing marvelous for them...

As for FCO, well I like that idea, but there's a lot of money had in Milan...



Some see lines, others see between the lines.
User currently offlineEddieDude From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 7571 posts, RR: 43
Reply 13, posted (8 years 7 months 4 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 8375 times:

Quoting Alitalia744 (Reply 5):
Look for additional 777s to join the AZ fleet over the next two years.

Gus, do you think we can expect AZ to start a MXP-MEX flight once more 777's join the fleet?



Next flights: MEX-GRU (AM 77E), GRU-GIG (JJ A320), SDU-CGH (G3 73H), GRU-MEX (JJ A332).
User currently offlineRst033 From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 37 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (8 years 7 months 4 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 8344 times:

I still believe Alitalia will also order the 748. I don�t think they are at all happy with the MD-11�s even as just freighters.

Alitalia744 I could be wrong but in my guessitmation AZ could have 748 service to JFK, LAX, YYZ, and some South American destinations including freighters.

Because of politics they will probably replace 72 MD-82�s with either A320/1 even though they would probably want the 737-800/900


User currently offlineCancidas From Poland, joined Jul 2003, 4112 posts, RR: 11
Reply 15, posted (8 years 7 months 4 weeks ago) and read 8001 times:

all that said, i would love to see an AZ 744 on approach into JFK... right behind KL!!


"...cannot the kingdom of salvation take me home."
User currently offlineAlitalia744 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 4748 posts, RR: 45
Reply 16, posted (8 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 6983 times:

Quoting Cancidas (Reply 15):
all that said, i would love to see an AZ 744 on approach into JFK...

I think a lot of us would. IMHO, AZ's livery dressed the 747 the best!


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User currently offlineFlyMeToTheMoon From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 242 posts, RR: 1
Reply 17, posted (8 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 6439 times:

Great looking livery on the 747-400. Unfortunately Alitalia's eyes are always bigger than their stomachs - did it with the 747 and now the 777 since they are bleeding money all over the place.


Fly me to the moon... but not through LHR!
User currently offlineEZYAirbus From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2003, 2460 posts, RR: 52
Reply 18, posted (8 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 5839 times:



Love this livery on this plane!

Glenn



http://www.glenneldridgeaviation.com
User currently offlineSKGSJULAX From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 84 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (8 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 5797 times:
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When are we going to see the beautiful Alitalia colors at LAX again? LA would be much more fun with non-stop service to Italy  Cool


Omnium curiositatum explorator
User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21511 posts, RR: 60
Reply 20, posted (8 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 5643 times:

We don't have enough Italians in LAX though, nor the demand for people here to go to Italy. With all the connection options to get to Italy, just can't see it working with anything but a 788, but not even sure why you'd do it with the 788.


Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offline797 From Venezuela, joined Aug 2005, 1894 posts, RR: 27
Reply 21, posted (8 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 5303 times:

Quoting Alitalia744 (Reply 12):
I'll have to disagree with you here. I think the ideal fleet is one which AZ is on the path to create:

- Boeing Long-haul centered on 777/767 (future inclusion of 787 as we know AZ wants it)
- Airbus Short/Medium-haul fleet centered on A32X series.
- Short/regional fleet centered on Embraer series jets - ERJ145/EMB170 (as well as adding EMB190s).

AZ has always preferred Boeing widebodies, I think this trend will continue. From what I hear, the 777 is doing marvelous for them...

As for FCO, well I like that idea, but there's a lot of money had in Milan...

Totally agree with you Alitalia744, Alitalia is having a great time with their 777s. Replacing all 777s and 767s would be a crime, they already have the experience to manage Boeing aircraft for long haul services. Furthermore, the 787 would come great to replace some of the old 767s and to add to their long-haul fleet. I'm not pretty sure about AZ getting the 748. I don't know if they wan to get in the high capacity market when they can manage shorter pax loads with more efficient aircrafts such as the 787. I'd love to see it though!

All the Airbus fleet is perfect in AZ. I think that they should replace all MD-80s with some new Airbus airplanes, such as A318s or A319s.

The ERJs are great. They are packed on each flight and are practical. I had the oportunity to fly the ERJ145 and it was a heck of a trip! I'd love to do it again!

I guess AZ has to worry a bit more in balancing their situation and then about renewing the fleet. I love AZ to see them go down.

Quoting Rst033 (Reply 14):
Because of politics they will probably replace 72 MD-82�s with either A320/1 even though they would probably want the 737-800/900

Agreed.

Quoting Alitalia744 (Reply 16):
AZ's livery dressed the 747 the best!

Oh tell me about it! Best Livery on a 747 so far! Hope to see some 748s in the future wearing that livery!

Cheers! Forza Alitalia!



Flying isn't dangerous. Crashing is what's dangerous!
User currently offlineAlitalia744 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 4748 posts, RR: 45
Reply 22, posted (8 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 5067 times:

Quoting 797 (Reply 21):
Furthermore, the 787 would come great to replace some of the old 767s and to add to their long-haul fleet.

It will in due time  Wink

Quoting 797 (Reply 21):
All the Airbus fleet is perfect in AZ. I think that they should replace all MD-80s with some new Airbus airplanes, such as A318s or A319s.

I'm no Airbus fan, but it makes sense financially and operationally. Although part me always thought a 738 would look HOT in AZ's colors.



Some see lines, others see between the lines.
User currently offlineSKGSJULAX From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 84 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (8 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 4412 times:
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Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 20):
We don't have enough Italians in LAX though, nor the demand for people here to go to Italy

But they operated 747s and MD-11s from the mid-80's through 2001 (I believe). With ER capability on smaller aircraft now is there a chance of restarting the service?  goodvibes 



Omnium curiositatum explorator
User currently offlineWingedarrow From Italy, joined May 2005, 169 posts, RR: 1
Reply 24, posted (8 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 4231 times:

Quoting EZYAirbus (Reply 18):
Love this livery on this plane! Glenn

Though nice it could appear, on the picture shown by EZYAirbus taken from Boeing's site there's an evident mistake in Alitalia's paint scheme!!! Just a trained eye could notice it... Anyway, the first of you that will reveal the secret will be awarded of a grateful Italian BRAVISSIMO!!! (Compare the Boeing's drawing the a.net pictures above)



אליטליה
25 Jush : I usually say i dislike the Alitaly livery but on the 747 it is just marvellous. Regds jush
26 Alitalia744 : Well let's see: 1) Boeing 747 titles not where they should be 2) No black nose 3) Mini "Alitalia" behind first door in gold. It was originally behind
27 Post contains images Jush : How's that? Impressive information you have on hand. But i tell you what i didn't expect less from you with this username Regds jush
28 Alitalia744 : haha, thanks! There's one other semi-error I see with the image... anyone know what it is?
29 Post contains links and images BA757 : The red 'team' logo? I haven't seen that in awhile. Also, its missing Alitalia off the engines. Add to that, no Skyteam logo! View Large View MediumP
30 Alitalia744 : yep both of them. one other issue tho...
31 Kaitak744 : When they ordered the 744s, I don't think they were part of Skyteam right?
32 Post contains images Wingedarrow : Alitalia744, you're simply fantastic! I think Alitalia should start thinking seriously about you joining the management ad honorem!!! Let's keep Alit
33 N1120A : Actually, loads had nothing to do with it. The LAX flights went out full. It was a yield issue
34 Post contains images Airdolomiti : Back then AZ ordered 744s with GE engines, but those in the picture look like PWs to me. Is that it? Federico
35 Richard28 : But were these O&D, or connecting pax attracted by the low yields?
36 Post contains images Alitalia744 : Bravo! That was the last thing I saw that was wrong with that picture!!! Speriamo! No? Was talking with a bud (NYCFly75) last night about the gloriou
37 Wingedarrow : I'd be glad to see you directing our company! But I'd be honored even to work side by side with such a talented and experienced individual. I really w
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