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Southwest In DTW And CLE  
User currently offlineIowaman From United States of America, joined May 2004, 4391 posts, RR: 6
Posted (8 years 8 months 11 hours ago) and read 3558 times:
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I know this has been somewhat talked about before, but Southwest seems small in both DTW and CLE. I know they both are hubs for NW/CO, but I would think with those metro areas being so big they could have a decent sized operation there, instead of 17ish in DTW and 21ish departures in CLE. I would think some advertising/more advertising would help a lot, as I would imagine not many people know of WN in DTW or CLE. Any thoughts?


Next flights: WN DSM-LAS-PHX, US PHX-SJD. Return: US SJD-PHX, WN PHX-MDW-DSM
29 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineStlgph From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 9345 posts, RR: 25
Reply 1, posted (8 years 8 months 8 hours ago) and read 3490 times:

I am sure the fine people of Cleveland and Detroit are well aware of the presence of Southwest Airlines.

In Detroit, Southwest doesn't have an earth shattering operation, but it's a comfortable operation, considering a few years ago they only served St. Louis and Chicago. Now, Nashville, Las Vegas, and Phoenix are in the mix. I am surprised they haven't gone east with at least one or two flights to Baltimore.

In Cleveland, I think it seems a bit surprising Southwest hasn't kicked up a Cleveland to Kansas City (along with Columbus), but when you stop and look at the route map, one stop in Chicago, or hauling it out to Vegas gives you the option to connecting to all the cities you'd make it to from Kansas City. And given Kansas City's infrastructure, it's probably easier to connect in the aforementioned cities.

Pro Southwesters say the airline prefers to run a comfortable operation and are satisfied with each city's performance.

Others tend to say Continental and Northwest have Southwest cornered into their niche with little chance of huge expansion from either city.

You decide.



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User currently offlineN200WN From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 784 posts, RR: 6
Reply 2, posted (8 years 8 months 8 hours ago) and read 3486 times:

I would throw IND into that question as well. Although it's not a hub such as CLE and DTW, WN hasn't aggressively pursued the market like ATA and NW. Southwest is even dropping the LAX nonstop on Feb 5th (but adding a 2nd MCI flight). A few years ago they dropped all five nonstops to STL and of course in the early years they lost the battle with NW on the DTW route and pulled out of that market. In the current schedule IND weekday departures are at only 16.

User currently offlineVegasplanes From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 778 posts, RR: 2
Reply 3, posted (8 years 8 months 7 hours ago) and read 3466 times:

Quoting N200WN (Reply 2):
of course in the early years they lost the battle with NW on the DTW route and pulled out of that market. I

Back in the late 80's WN flew from DET not DTW, that was when the IND service was around. Too close to drive, not enough O/D such as MDW.

As for WN building up in DTW, is there any or going to be any additional gate space available? Last time I was there, Smith Terminal was pretty well maxed out. According to the DTW masterplan, there are only going to be 26 planned in the new North Terminal, which will replace the Smith Terminal. All the airlines, except NW and SkyTeam, operate or will operate out of the new North Terminal, therefore I do not see much room for WN to expand in DTW. For a while in the mid-1990's WN was the # 2 carrier in terms of monthly passenger count at DTW, that spot had been held by AA for what seemed like forever. Being #2 with 5% of the market ?? is still nothing compared to NW with their presence at DTW.

WN does not seem to really focus on the Midwest with the exception of MDW, even then most flights being added there are not intra-Midwest type flights to STL, DTW, CMH, CLE, IND, MCI, OMA, etc.


User currently offlineMbm3 From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 839 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (8 years 8 months ago) and read 3380 times:
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Many folks here in CLE know and swear by Southwest, espescially now with nonstops to LAS and PHX along with the usual flights to the hubs and focus cities.

Could they feasibly add more flights? I think DEN would do very well as well as some other cities in Florida.



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User currently offlineN766UA From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 8234 posts, RR: 23
Reply 5, posted (8 years 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 3331 times:

WN's flights are usually packed in Cleveland. They fly to a good variety of cities (midwest, east coast, southwest, florida, central states) and they have an efficiant operation. What more could you ask for? They don't need 100 flights to every bleedin' city.


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User currently offlineN766UA From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 8234 posts, RR: 23
Reply 6, posted (8 years 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 3324 times:

Quoting Mbm3 (Reply 4):
Could they feasibly add more flights? I think DEN would do very well as well as some other cities in Florida.

Well, we had MCO and they dropped that. RSW is starting soon or has started. Maybe TPA could do well? The only problem is gate space although I'd imagine they can fit a few more flights in after, say, 9AM, once they get their RON's out of the way. They're overnighting 5 airplanes at 4 gates.



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User currently offlineN702ML From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (8 years 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 3292 times:

I used to work on the ground in both CLE and CMH for Southwest. At the time, CMH was considered a "country club" station with only 11 flights a day. I think CMH has now matched or slightly surpassed CLE in daily flights.

What always suprised me, more than anything, was that Southwest offers no nonstop service from CLE to Florida. Sure, there are easy connections to all Florida cities via BWI, BNA and MDW....but the same could be said for CMH, IND, SDF, etc.

I believe I heard once (and this could be wrong) that CLE was one of our most expensive airports to serve. I don't know if this has to do with landing fees and/or rent per square foot or, for that matter, if that statement is even true.

I also remember rumors flying for a while that WN would transfer its CLE operations to CAK because of the costs associated with CLE. Again, this was quite a while back (well before FL grew or even served CAK.).

I know I wish CLE would grow!

I did not know the IND-LAX flights were ending! Thats news to me! But I believe it. We seem to be able to quietly end routes.

As far as DTW, is DTW not the only city east of the mississippi river without nonstops to BWI? (Except PIT and PHL and - until recently - MSY?)

For anyone who is interested, CLE's space used to belong to....

Gates B8/B10 were Midway's. B9/B11 were Piedmont and Piedmont Commuter (used briefly by USAir after the merger). The ticket counter, baggage office and baggage claim were all from Eastern.

www.geocities.com/departing1983/index.html


User currently offlineDCA-ROCguy From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 4499 posts, RR: 33
Reply 8, posted (8 years 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 3273 times:

Southwest doesn't seem to be an airline that's "cowed." If they felt it would be worth their while to spend the money developing bigger operations in CLE and DTW, they likely could do it. AirTran's big success at CAK, for instance, indicates that folks in Northeast Ohio like low fares as well as anyone else.

A more likely explanation for WN's relatively small DTW and CLE stations lies with other factors. First, there's probably lower-hanging fruit elsewhere. They probably didn't want fight historically-aggressive NW for more DTW market share. Which in retrospect seems a miscalculation. Spirit's rise alongside WN's station has proven that Detroit will support LCC service alongside Northwest.

For years, Cleveland had high fees which discouraged Southwest from expanding. IIRC, the fees have been lowered somewhat--CLE experts would need to give details--but WN now seems to be focusing on opening beachheads in big markets like PHL, DEN, etc. If CLE wanted a bigger WN station, the 90's and the past few years apparently would have been the time.

CLE experts would need to address the question of local fear of losing the perpetually fragile-looking CO hub. Clearly that hasn't discouraged people from using AirTran at CAK, but I wonder if the business community thinks they'd lose their Barbie-jet nonstops to all those places if they threw more business to WN right at Hopkins. That likely wouldn't stop the average person though, if WN were to grow at Hopkins.

I share Stlpgh's surprise that WN hasn't started DTW-BWI, though. CLE-BWI has been a successful route.

Jim



Need a new airline paint scheme? Better call Saul! (Bass that is)
User currently offlineN766UA From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 8234 posts, RR: 23
Reply 9, posted (8 years 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 3242 times:

Quoting N702ML (Reply 7):
What always suprised me, more than anything, was that Southwest offers no nonstop service from CLE to Florida.

As I said we have new CLE-RSW service.



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User currently offlineIowaman From United States of America, joined May 2004, 4391 posts, RR: 6
Reply 10, posted (8 years 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 3222 times:
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Quoting N766UA (Reply 9):
As I said we have new CLE-RSW service.

When does this start? It isn't bookable on southwest.com



Next flights: WN DSM-LAS-PHX, US PHX-SJD. Return: US SJD-PHX, WN PHX-MDW-DSM
User currently offlineN766UA From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 8234 posts, RR: 23
Reply 11, posted (8 years 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 3213 times:

Quoting Iowaman (Reply 10):
When does this start? It isn't bookable on southwest.com

You know I'm not exactly sure. I thought it was some time soon, but maybe not till April or so? (Unless they already shot it down before even starting the route?)

[Edited 2006-01-04 18:46:46]


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User currently offlinePiercey From Sweden, joined Nov 2005, 2233 posts, RR: 1
Reply 12, posted (8 years 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 3180 times:

CLE is mainly lack of gates. WN has B8-B11. AC has B1. UA has B3, 5, and 7. DL has B2, 4, and 6. CO has all of D and all but C1 and C2 in C. 1 and 2 are NW. I don't remember the layout for A, but it's comprised of AA, US/HP, and USA 3000.

WN is popular here, though. Everytime I'm in the terminal, the WN gates are packed.



Well I believe it all is coming to an end. Oh well, I guess we are gonna pretend.
User currently offlineN766UA From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 8234 posts, RR: 23
Reply 13, posted (8 years 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 3136 times:

Quoting Piercey (Reply 12):
I don't remember the layout for A, but it's comprised of AA, US/HP, and USA 3000.

Eagle runs out of A-1,3, and 5. US/HP use A-2, 8, 10, and 12. A-7 is now empty and A-9, 11, and 14 are servisair/common use (USA 3000, Charters, Int'l flights.)



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User currently offlinePiercey From Sweden, joined Nov 2005, 2233 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (8 years 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 3125 times:

Quoting N766UA (Reply 13):
Eagle runs out of A-1,3, and 5. US/HP use A-2, 8, 10, and 12. A-7 is now empty and A-9, 11, and 14 are servisair/common use (USA 3000, Charters, Int'l flights.)

thanks. Who used A7 before?



Well I believe it all is coming to an end. Oh well, I guess we are gonna pretend.
User currently offlineN702ML From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (8 years 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 3075 times:

Quoting N766UA (Reply 9):
As I said we have new CLE-RSW service.

Not to say you are wrong, but I do not recall seeing that announced anywhere. And, being from CLE, and starting my WN career there...I pay attention to what happens in CLE.

Has anyone else heard of this service being announced?


User currently offlineMonorail From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 625 posts, RR: 4
Reply 16, posted (8 years 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 3066 times:

Quoting Piercey (Reply 14):
thanks. Who used A7 before?

America West. With the HP/US consolidation they just joined the previous US gates



Playoffs? Don't talk about playoffs!
User currently offlineN766UA From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 8234 posts, RR: 23
Reply 17, posted (8 years 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 3054 times:

Quoting N702ML (Reply 15):
Not to say you are wrong, but I do not recall seeing that announced anywhere.

You know what... now that I check into it I can't find it anywhere either. I must have heard it somewhere reputable (banner at the counter, maybe?) otherwise it wouldn't be stuck in my head.. but I'll be damned if I can find anything to back it up anymore!

Quoting Piercey (Reply 14):
thanks. Who used A7 before?

America West. They used A-9 too but now they're over with US on the other side of A.



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User currently offlineNWHPDTW From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 15 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (8 years 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 3049 times:

Quoting Vegasplanes (Reply 3):
According to the DTW masterplan, there are only going to be 26 planned in the new North Terminal, which will replace the Smith Terminal. All the airlines, except NW and SkyTeam, operate or will operate out of the new North Terminal, therefore I do not see much room for WN to expand in DTW.

According to an article in one of the Detroit newspapers several months ago, WN is actually planning to reduce the number of gates they use from four in the current Smith terminal to three in the new North terminal, owing to efficiencies gained from the new building.


User currently offlineLuv2fly From United States of America, joined May 2003, 12103 posts, RR: 49
Reply 19, posted (8 years 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 3047 times:
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Quoting Vegasplanes (Reply 3):
Back in the late 80's WN flew from DET not DTW, that was when the IND service was around. Too close to drive, not enough O/D such as MDW.

In the late 80's WN served both DET and DTW, in fact they started service from DTW and then added DET and served both airports together for almost 5 years until DET never came through on promises made and WN closed DET and just kept DTW. IND was only offered from DET never from DTW.



You can cut the irony with a knife
User currently offlineNWA757boy From United States of America, joined exactly 9 years ago today! , 676 posts, RR: 4
Reply 20, posted (8 years 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 3039 times:

I remember a few years back Southwest had a major marketing campaign around DTW and I remember seeing big huge billboards and signs that said "Phoenix for Pheanuts"

User currently offlineFlyinryan99 From United States of America, joined Feb 2001, 2001 posts, RR: 13
Reply 21, posted (8 years 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 3032 times:

Does anyone think the reason Southwest hasn't added more flights to DTW is because of the already large presence of LCCs? Spirit has a fairly sized operation there; USA 3000 runs flights to liesure destinations; AirTran with nonstops to ATL, MCO, SRQ; Frontier to DEN;(used to) Independence to IAD. I would think that has something to do with it too. Also, I think it really plays into the passenger numbers at the surrounding airports, too (like LAN, AZO, FNT, MBS, TOL).

User currently offlineLuv2fly From United States of America, joined May 2003, 12103 posts, RR: 49
Reply 22, posted (8 years 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 3013 times:
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Flyinryan99 you have hit the nail on the head. Also why run hundreds of flights and have to market and discount to fill your seats, when you can run a handful and fill them with little or no effort on WN's part.


You can cut the irony with a knife
User currently offlineIowaman From United States of America, joined May 2004, 4391 posts, RR: 6
Reply 23, posted (8 years 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 2923 times:
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Quoting Flyinryan99 (Reply 21):
Does anyone think the reason Southwest hasn't added more flights to DTW is because of the already large presence of LCCs? Spirit has a fairly sized operation there; USA 3000 runs flights to liesure destinations; AirTran with nonstops to ATL, MCO, SRQ; Frontier to DEN;(used to) Independence to IAD. I would think that has something to do with it too. Also, I think it really plays into the passenger numbers at the surrounding airports, too (like LAN, AZO, FNT, MBS, TOL).

True, however compared to most cities WN flies to, DTW doesn't have that much LCC competition.



Next flights: WN DSM-LAS-PHX, US PHX-SJD. Return: US SJD-PHX, WN PHX-MDW-DSM
User currently offlineFlyinryan99 From United States of America, joined Feb 2001, 2001 posts, RR: 13
Reply 24, posted (8 years 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 2900 times:

Quoting Iowaman (Reply 23):

I would tend to disagree with you. Florida yes, MDW yes, and maybe a few cities out out west, but not airport specific. PVD, MHT, BWI...I would say DTW has almost all of the big LCCs except B6...In my list above I forgot to add US (HP). I think DTW has cut throat competition and it's really keeping WN from expanding more. I'm sure if they wanted to bring in more flights, they would. As far as I know, DTW's fees aren't outrageous so that isn't limiting them.


25 Georgiabill : I think WN could be very successful serving MHT,PVD, BDL and ALB from both DTW and CLE
26 Stlgph : No offense, but that tends to happen a lot with Southwest. Yes, they took out Los Angeles and added a second daily to Kansas City. I believe they had
27 Ncflyer : The announcement for "cleveland" to RSW was Airtran from CAK, not WN. No such thing on WN. In fact WN is pretty expensive from CLE to FL, to me it is
28 Luvfa : The lack of Non-stops from CLE - FL has always surprised me. However the lack of a n/s from DTW- BWI surprises me more. By offering service to BWI the
29 Post contains links N702ML : I also used to work in MCO before we opened the new terminal and before it was a base. We had three gates, 5, 7L and 7R, and we managed to push almost
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