Iowaman From United States of America, joined May 2004, 4254 posts, RR: 7 Posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 3067 times:
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I know this has been somewhat talked about before, but Southwest seems small in both DTW and CLE. I know they both are hubs for NW/CO, but I would think with those metro areas being so big they could have a decent sized operation there, instead of 17ish in DTW and 21ish departures in CLE. I would think some advertising/more advertising would help a lot, as I would imagine not many people know of WN in DTW or CLE. Any thoughts?
Stlgph From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 9167 posts, RR: 27 Reply 1, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 2999 times:
I am sure the fine people of Cleveland and Detroit are well aware of the presence of Southwest Airlines.
In Detroit, Southwest doesn't have an earth shattering operation, but it's a comfortable operation, considering a few years ago they only served St. Louis and Chicago. Now, Nashville, Las Vegas, and Phoenix are in the mix. I am surprised they haven't gone east with at least one or two flights to Baltimore.
In Cleveland, I think it seems a bit surprising Southwest hasn't kicked up a Cleveland to Kansas City (along with Columbus), but when you stop and look at the route map, one stop in Chicago, or hauling it out to Vegas gives you the option to connecting to all the cities you'd make it to from Kansas City. And given Kansas City's infrastructure, it's probably easier to connect in the aforementioned cities.
Pro Southwesters say the airline prefers to run a comfortable operation and are satisfied with each city's performance.
Others tend to say Continental and Northwest have Southwest cornered into their niche with little chance of huge expansion from either city.
Eternal darkness we all should dread. It's hard to party when you're dead.
N200WN From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 784 posts, RR: 7 Reply 2, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 2995 times:
I would throw IND into that question as well. Although it's not a hub such as CLE and DTW, WN hasn't aggressively pursued the market like ATA and NW. Southwest is even dropping the LAX nonstop on Feb 5th (but adding a 2nd MCI flight). A few years ago they dropped all five nonstops to STL and of course in the early years they lost the battle with NW on the DTW route and pulled out of that market. In the current schedule IND weekday departures are at only 16.
Vegasplanes From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 778 posts, RR: 2 Reply 3, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 2975 times:
Quoting N200WN (Reply 2): of course in the early years they lost the battle with NW on the DTW route and pulled out of that market. I
Back in the late 80's WN flew from DET not DTW, that was when the IND service was around. Too close to drive, not enough O/D such as MDW.
As for WN building up in DTW, is there any or going to be any additional gate space available? Last time I was there, Smith Terminal was pretty well maxed out. According to the DTW masterplan, there are only going to be 26 planned in the new North Terminal, which will replace the Smith Terminal. All the airlines, except NW and SkyTeam, operate or will operate out of the new North Terminal, therefore I do not see much room for WN to expand in DTW. For a while in the mid-1990's WN was the # 2 carrier in terms of monthly passenger count at DTW, that spot had been held by AA for what seemed like forever. Being #2 with 5% of the market ?? is still nothing compared to NW with their presence at DTW.
WN does not seem to really focus on the Midwest with the exception of MDW, even then most flights being added there are not intra-Midwest type flights to STL, DTW, CMH, CLE, IND, MCI, OMA, etc.
N766UA From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 8035 posts, RR: 25 Reply 5, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks ago) and read 2840 times:
WN's flights are usually packed in Cleveland. They fly to a good variety of cities (midwest, east coast, southwest, florida, central states) and they have an efficiant operation. What more could you ask for? They don't need 100 flights to every bleedin' city.
N766UA From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 8035 posts, RR: 25 Reply 6, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks ago) and read 2833 times:
Quoting Mbm3 (Reply 4): Could they feasibly add more flights? I think DEN would do very well as well as some other cities in Florida.
Well, we had MCO and they dropped that. RSW is starting soon or has started. Maybe TPA could do well? The only problem is gate space although I'd imagine they can fit a few more flights in after, say, 9AM, once they get their RON's out of the way. They're overnighting 5 airplanes at 4 gates.
N702ML From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 7, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks ago) and read 2801 times:
I used to work on the ground in both CLE and CMH for Southwest. At the time, CMH was considered a "country club" station with only 11 flights a day. I think CMH has now matched or slightly surpassed CLE in daily flights.
What always suprised me, more than anything, was that Southwest offers no nonstop service from CLE to Florida. Sure, there are easy connections to all Florida cities via BWI, BNA and MDW....but the same could be said for CMH, IND, SDF, etc.
I believe I heard once (and this could be wrong) that CLE was one of our most expensive airports to serve. I don't know if this has to do with landing fees and/or rent per square foot or, for that matter, if that statement is even true.
I also remember rumors flying for a while that WN would transfer its CLE operations to CAK because of the costs associated with CLE. Again, this was quite a while back (well before FL grew or even served CAK.).
I know I wish CLE would grow!
I did not know the IND-LAX flights were ending! Thats news to me! But I believe it. We seem to be able to quietly end routes.
As far as DTW, is DTW not the only city east of the mississippi river without nonstops to BWI? (Except PIT and PHL and - until recently - MSY?)
For anyone who is interested, CLE's space used to belong to....
Gates B8/B10 were Midway's. B9/B11 were Piedmont and Piedmont Commuter (used briefly by USAir after the merger). The ticket counter, baggage office and baggage claim were all from Eastern.
DCA-ROCguy From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 4420 posts, RR: 35 Reply 8, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks ago) and read 2782 times:
Southwest doesn't seem to be an airline that's "cowed." If they felt it would be worth their while to spend the money developing bigger operations in CLE and DTW, they likely could do it. AirTran's big success at CAK, for instance, indicates that folks in Northeast Ohio like low fares as well as anyone else.
A more likely explanation for WN's relatively small DTW and CLE stations lies with other factors. First, there's probably lower-hanging fruit elsewhere. They probably didn't want fight historically-aggressive NW for more DTW market share. Which in retrospect seems a miscalculation. Spirit's rise alongside WN's station has proven that Detroit will support LCC service alongside Northwest.
For years, Cleveland had high fees which discouraged Southwest from expanding. IIRC, the fees have been lowered somewhat--CLE experts would need to give details--but WN now seems to be focusing on opening beachheads in big markets like PHL, DEN, etc. If CLE wanted a bigger WN station, the 90's and the past few years apparently would have been the time.
CLE experts would need to address the question of local fear of losing the perpetually fragile-looking CO hub. Clearly that hasn't discouraged people from using AirTran at CAK, but I wonder if the business community thinks they'd lose their Barbie-jet nonstops to all those places if they threw more business to WN right at Hopkins. That likely wouldn't stop the average person though, if WN were to grow at Hopkins.
I share Stlpgh's surprise that WN hasn't started DTW-BWI, though. CLE-BWI has been a successful route.
Piercey From Sweden, joined Nov 2005, 2233 posts, RR: 1 Reply 12, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 2689 times:
CLE is mainly lack of gates. WN has B8-B11. AC has B1. UA has B3, 5, and 7. DL has B2, 4, and 6. CO has all of D and all but C1 and C2 in C. 1 and 2 are NW. I don't remember the layout for A, but it's comprised of AA, US/HP, and USA 3000.
WN is popular here, though. Everytime I'm in the terminal, the WN gates are packed.
Well I believe it all is coming to an end. Oh well, I guess we are gonna pretend.
N766UA From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 8035 posts, RR: 25 Reply 17, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 2563 times:
Quoting N702ML (Reply 15): Not to say you are wrong, but I do not recall seeing that announced anywhere.
You know what... now that I check into it I can't find it anywhere either. I must have heard it somewhere reputable (banner at the counter, maybe?) otherwise it wouldn't be stuck in my head.. but I'll be damned if I can find anything to back it up anymore!
NWHPDTW From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 15 posts, RR: 0 Reply 18, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 2558 times:
Quoting Vegasplanes (Reply 3): According to the DTW masterplan, there are only going to be 26 planned in the new North Terminal, which will replace the Smith Terminal. All the airlines, except NW and SkyTeam, operate or will operate out of the new North Terminal, therefore I do not see much room for WN to expand in DTW.
According to an article in one of the Detroit newspapers several months ago, WN is actually planning to reduce the number of gates they use from four in the current Smith terminal to three in the new North terminal, owing to efficiencies gained from the new building.
Luv2fly From United States of America, joined May 2003, 12029 posts, RR: 50 Reply 19, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 2556 times:
Quoting Vegasplanes (Reply 3): Back in the late 80's WN flew from DET not DTW, that was when the IND service was around. Too close to drive, not enough O/D such as MDW.
In the late 80's WN served both DET and DTW, in fact they started service from DTW and then added DET and served both airports together for almost 5 years until DET never came through on promises made and WN closed DET and just kept DTW. IND was only offered from DET never from DTW.
Flyinryan99 From United States of America, joined Feb 2001, 1948 posts, RR: 10 Reply 21, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 2541 times:
Does anyone think the reason Southwest hasn't added more flights to DTW is because of the already large presence of LCCs? Spirit has a fairly sized operation there; USA 3000 runs flights to liesure destinations; AirTran with nonstops to ATL, MCO, SRQ; Frontier to DEN;(used to) Independence to IAD. I would think that has something to do with it too. Also, I think it really plays into the passenger numbers at the surrounding airports, too (like LAN, AZO, FNT, MBS, TOL).
Luv2fly From United States of America, joined May 2003, 12029 posts, RR: 50 Reply 22, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 2522 times:
Flyinryan99 you have hit the nail on the head. Also why run hundreds of flights and have to market and discount to fill your seats, when you can run a handful and fill them with little or no effort on WN's part.
Iowaman From United States of America, joined May 2004, 4254 posts, RR: 7 Reply 23, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 2432 times:
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Quoting Flyinryan99 (Reply 21): Does anyone think the reason Southwest hasn't added more flights to DTW is because of the already large presence of LCCs? Spirit has a fairly sized operation there; USA 3000 runs flights to liesure destinations; AirTran with nonstops to ATL, MCO, SRQ; Frontier to DEN;(used to) Independence to IAD. I would think that has something to do with it too. Also, I think it really plays into the passenger numbers at the surrounding airports, too (like LAN, AZO, FNT, MBS, TOL).
True, however compared to most cities WN flies to, DTW doesn't have that much LCC competition.
I would tend to disagree with you. Florida yes, MDW yes, and maybe a few cities out out west, but not airport specific. PVD, MHT, BWI...I would say DTW has almost all of the big LCCs except B6...In my list above I forgot to add US (HP). I think DTW has cut throat competition and it's really keeping WN from expanding more. I'm sure if they wanted to bring in more flights, they would. As far as I know, DTW's fees aren't outrageous so that isn't limiting them.
25 Georgiabill: I think WN could be very successful serving MHT,PVD, BDL and ALB from both DTW and CLE
26 Stlgph: No offense, but that tends to happen a lot with Southwest. Yes, they took out Los Angeles and added a second daily to Kansas City. I believe they had
27 Ncflyer: The announcement for "cleveland" to RSW was Airtran from CAK, not WN. No such thing on WN. In fact WN is pretty expensive from CLE to FL, to me it is
28 Luvfa: The lack of Non-stops from CLE - FL has always surprised me. However the lack of a n/s from DTW- BWI surprises me more. By offering service to BWI the
29 N702ML: I also used to work in MCO before we opened the new terminal and before it was a base. We had three gates, 5, 7L and 7R, and we managed to push almost