777 From Italy, joined Sep 2005, 325 posts, RR: 0 Posted (3 years 11 months 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 2159 times:
Today the AZ shares rose more than 8% due to some rumors about an imminent merger with AF-KLM!!!
Here below the link to the related news (only in Italian):
IMO this is a good news, not only for the future of AZ but only for the entire aviation sector: I guess that in the next years many other Airlines companies will merge together performing in this way the "concentration process" already experienced by other industrial sectors in the last years in Europe (banking, automotive, defence, etc...)
Is there anyone that can confirm this voice on simply add a comment about this news?
MBJ2000 From Germany, joined Dec 2005, 360 posts, RR: 0 Reply 1, posted (3 years 11 months 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 2122 times:
The next logical step will be I guess that some eastern european lines will get on board as well. BA and LH will see even bigger competition.
It's interesting to see how the european industry is growing faster together than the european nations.
"My" german bank (Hypovereinsbank) is now also owned by an italian institute (Unicredit).
But that's becoming off-topic now...
ciao
Like most of life's problems, this one can be solved with bending -- Bender Unit 22
Air France-KLM denies reported merger talks with Alitalia
01.04.2006, 08:26 AM
AMSTERDAM (AFX) - French-Dutch airline Air France-KLM denied that it is engaged in merger talks with Italian counterpart Alitalia, as reported in Italian newspaper Finanza & Mercati this morning.
An Air France-KLM spokeswoman denied the market rumours cited in the report, saying that 'there is nothing new' since Nov 23, when Air France-KLM said it would keep its 2 pct stake in Alitalia as the latter announced a capital increase by issuing new shares.
Air France-KLM subsequently bought new shares to keep its 2 pct stake.
Meanwhile, a spokesman for Alitalia said the Italian airline had 'no comment' on the rumours.
777 From Italy, joined Sep 2005, 325 posts, RR: 0 Reply 3, posted (3 years 11 months 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 2034 times:
Quoting Concorde001 (Reply 2): Air France-KLM denies reported merger talks with Alitalia
01.04.2006, 08:26 AM
AMSTERDAM (AFX) - French-Dutch airline Air France-KLM denied that it is engaged in merger talks with Italian counterpart Alitalia, as reported in Italian newspaper Finanza & Mercati this morning.
It seems a strong statement but it's also a typical behaviour to deny this kind of rumors... we will see soon the truth I guess!!!
Art From Lebanon, joined Feb 2005, 2275 posts, RR: 0 Reply 4, posted (3 years 11 months 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 1947 times:
What is the business case for Air France getting involved with Alitalia? Alitalia loses money and (correct me if I am wrong) looks set to continue losing money.
Bobnwa From United States, joined Dec 2000, 4744 posts, RR: 12 Reply 5, posted (3 years 11 months 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 1920 times:
Quoting Art (Reply 4): What is the business case for Air France getting involved with Alitalia? Alitalia loses money and (correct me if I am wrong) looks set to continue losing money.
I agree, what would AF/KL gain by merging with Alitalia that they don't already have through Skyteam. They would just be saddled with Alitalia's losses and the constant interference by the Italian government. They would also inherit the strike for any reason Alitalia unions. I do not see any plus side to this.
BA757 From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2003, 2827 posts, RR: 23 Reply 6, posted (3 years 11 months 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 1900 times:
This has been rumored before.
I dearly love KL/AF and AZ. They are really the only carriers I fly these days.
A merger between KLM-Air France and Alitalia would be great - it would be just what Alitalia need.
There would be a lot of work needed on Alitalia's part though to make it work, one of the main tasks would be improving their reliability - I love AZ - but their punctuality and general reliability is terrible. To be fair to Alitalia though, when things go right, you cannot complain, their crews and service is second to none - despite what a lot of people say.
With some restructuring and some changes to bring them more inline with AF/KL, without loosing their 'Italianiness' we could have a fantastic mega European carrier on our hands.
However I am skeptical about it happening, it will be interesting how to see how this pans out.
One thing can be for sure though...Forza Alitalia!
Edit: Reworded a little bit of it! I should also add that I am talking from AZ's POV, as has been mentioned, I am not too sure about the benefits to AF/KL - but I am not privy to that info like the majority of other people on here.
SA7700 From South Africa, joined Dec 2003, 2225 posts, RR: 10 Reply 7, posted (3 years 11 months 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 1859 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW FORUM MODERATOR
Should a merger like this one go ahead, wouldn't it raise quite serious competition issues with the EU? Surely such an action would have the precise opposite effect of fair competition and have a significant impact on smaller European airlines like LOT, Malev, etc?
FlySSC From Lebanon, joined Aug 2003, 6340 posts, RR: 64 Reply 9, posted (3 years 11 months 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 1816 times:
This is a long time rumor ...
But AFKL's CEO also repeated constantly that there was no way to get AZ into AFKL as long as AZ structural problems are not solved.
AFKL is doing VERY well and there is absolutely no interest to integrate AZ, as it could only destabilize and weaken AFKL.
Quoting 777 (Thread starter): Today the AZ shares rose more than 8% due to some rumors about an imminent merger with AF-KLM!!!
Actually the AZ share raised in Milan after British investors declared their intention to put money in AZ ...
PHKLM From Netherlands, joined Dec 2005, 1109 posts, RR: 3 Reply 10, posted (3 years 11 months 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 1521 times:
It's a good thing AZ shares went up. It would be a sad story when AZ goes the same way as Sabena and Swissair. The last thing aviation in Europe needs is another flag carrier going bankrupt.
We have to be realistic however, AZ is loosing money for years in a row now. Their restructuring plan depends not only on some new fancy 777's (just naming a number), but very much on the employees (read: salary cutbacks). I like your statement "BA757" about loosing "Italianiness"; this month again there is a 4 hour strike; not very helpful in re-establishing trust in the plagued airline I'd say.
I recently read an interview with the CEO of AFKL, he was asked a few questions about AZ:
Will AFKL take over / merge with AZ: "Not before they make any profit"
Are you worried about AZ: "Yes; but they need to survive"
What if they don't? "They will. They have to. There is too much at stake"
KLMA330 From Canada, joined Feb 2005, 657 posts, RR: 3 Reply 11, posted (3 years 11 months 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 1496 times:
My thought is that AF/KL would pretty much dismantle AZ's longhaul operations, and just keep intra-European flights afloat from Rome and Milano, whilst longhaul connections would be made through Paris or Amsterdam. Unless they can find out another way of turning things around for AZ, although if there was a way, wouldn't it already be in progress?
Should a merger like this one go ahead, wouldn't it raise quite serious competition issues with the EU?
The EU has already allowed tons of Italian state money to be thrown at AZ, to the detriment of most EU airlines, and have bent over backwards to ensure they survive. The true test of AZ's survival is still to come. Ryanair and Easyjet have both set up operations within Italy which will not help them.
The airline, after their recently EU approved capital increase, is essentially privatized, so the Italian state cannot step in like they have in the past.
So if we are to believe what AF/KLM have said, that they will have no interest in any merger before AZ starts making money, then if they don't, they'll be kaput!
Kiwiandrew From Mauritius, joined Jun 2005, 5533 posts, RR: 17 Reply 13, posted (3 years 11 months 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 1182 times:
Quoting PHKLM (Reply 10): The last thing aviation in Europe needs is another flag carrier going bankrupt.
actually Europe probably needs at least three or four flag carriers to belly up ( or be acquired , if they are in a fit state to be taken over rather than shut down ) - there are simply far too many of them for efficient operation
Moderation in all things ... including moderation ;-)
Aviationfreak From Netherlands, joined Nov 2003, 1133 posts, RR: 54 Reply 14, posted (3 years 11 months 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 1089 times:
Didn't try AZ and KLM a merger or at least an intensified partnership years ago. It resulted in a dispute over money when one of them suddenly pulled out and that caused a lot of friction between the two carriers. Don't know what he exact plot was. Maybe someone can shed some light on this. Anyway I can't see it happen because of that reason.
But then again, KLM hasn't much to say in the new AF/KLM holding...
Sander
I love both Airbus and Boeing as much as I love aviation!
RobertS975 From United States, joined Aug 2005, 668 posts, RR: 0 Reply 15, posted (3 years 11 months 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 1030 times:
Quoting KLMA330 (Reply 11): My thought is that AF/KL would pretty much dismantle AZ's longhaul operations, and just keep intra-European flights afloat from Rome and Milano, whilst longhaul connections would be made through Paris or Amsterdam. Unless they can find out another way of turning things around for AZ, although if there was a way, wouldn't it already be in progress?
Unlikely, IMO. That would just cause a mass migration to competitors nonstop flights into MXP and FCO.
Blast From Sweden, joined Nov 2005, 111 posts, RR: 1 Reply 16, posted (3 years 11 months 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 994 times:
Quoting PHKLM (Reply 10): The last thing aviation in Europe needs is another flag carrier going bankrupt.
I'd say Europe is worse of actually having these loss making carriers continuing to operate. Also I don't see how Alitalia can become a healthy, profitable carrier any time soon. Their 'losing money way of doing business' has been too consistent and there have been too many strikes. Not a good atmosphere.
BA757 From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2003, 2827 posts, RR: 23 Reply 17, posted (3 years 11 months 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 931 times:
Quoting PHKLM (Reply 10): I like your statement "BA757" about loosing "Italianiness"; this month again there is a 4 hour strike; not very helpful in re-establishing trust in the plagued airline I'd say.
Strikes are part of eveyday Italian life unfortunately.
This is something however that has to change, they need to loose this part of their 'Italianiness'.
In the world of airlines, who carry people from many different cultures, there will be many people who will not be able to accept striking - the Italian's may be able to take it in their stride, but for example many people from the UK, USA etc.. will not.
The strike for any reason attitude is one thing that has to change, as I am pretty sure everyone has to agree. Maybe this has to start with the unions, I don't know? But one thing is for sure, this will be a big and hard change for the airline, but most certainly one it needs to survive (which it undoubtedly will in my opinion).
Elagabal From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2005, 197 posts, RR: 0 Reply 18, posted (3 years 11 months 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 923 times:
Quoting Aviationfreak (Reply 14): Didn't try AZ and KLM a merger or at least an intensified partnership years ago. It resulted in a dispute over money when one of them suddenly pulled out and that caused a lot of friction between the two carriers.
Yes. It was KLM. IIRC, there were a few issues outstanding but the major ones reported in the papers were a). operational problems involving combining operations at MXP, and more importantly b). KLM being asked to give up too much control over AMS. I didn't see anything about AZ's debt, other than that it existed and would be a problem for KL (i.e., you can bet they were discussing it, but KL didn't say anything publicly).
My sources are mainstream papers like the FT. Anyone with specialist / insider info?
Nycfly75 From United States, joined Aug 2005, 724 posts, RR: 11 Reply 19, posted (3 years 11 months 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 810 times:
Well fellow A.netter Lufthansa and I discussed this issue at length last night. He brought up how FCO would make a fantastic European hub for EK given FCO's geographic position to allow it to be a gateway to the middle east, asia, etc. Therefore, perhaps an investment into/merger of AZ from EK may be a smart solution. You can have a situation similar to AF-KL where you maintain two distinct brand names under the umbrella of one holding company...the two company's routes can be coordinated and EK can be brought into SKyTeam. As a lover of AZ, I would love to see her standing on her own, but if it meant an EK merger or no AZ..Id take the EK merger in a heartbeat.
Rst033 From United States, joined Dec 2005, 37 posts, RR: 0 Reply 20, posted (3 years 11 months 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 720 times:
The Italians would freak if anyone but Italians would own AZ. I'll bet a whole lotta cash that whatever happens to AZ the Italian Gov't will get behind the merger and say you have to give us THIS and THAT or no deal!
That's why I'll bet any merger/alliance will be minimal.
797 From Venezuela, joined Aug 2005, 1537 posts, RR: 28 Reply 22, posted (3 years 11 months 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 593 times:
Quoting LTU932 (Reply 21): What would the benefits of such merger even be?
Wll that depends on how you see it. I don't believe in a wole merger as a TW/AA one, where AA took all TW planes and converted them. Here, we'd be talking about financial merger and ofcourse, frequent flyer stuff (not talking about SkyTeam). All the routes might be modified jus like AF and KL did (CCS is not served anymore by KL 763, but by an AF 744). So, I think the major benefits would be structure, organization and image...
Cheers!
There are two types of people in the world: Those who love Airplanes, and the rest of you poor bastards!
FlySSC From Lebanon, joined Aug 2003, 6340 posts, RR: 64 Reply 23, posted (3 years 11 months 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 558 times:
Quoting 797 (Reply 22): Wll that depends on how you see it. I don't believe in a wole merger as a TW/AA one, where AA took all TW planes and converted them. Here, we'd be talking about financial merger and ofcourse, frequent flyer stuff (not talking about SkyTeam). All the routes might be modified jus like AF and KL did (CCS is not served anymore by KL 763, but by an AF 744). So, I think the major benefits would be structure, organization and image...
The difference is that, though bigger than KL, AF & KL were very complementary in terms of network.
AZ has nothing to offer : There is no destination, no market where they are strong and where AFKL is not already present, and via their powerful Hub of CDG & AMS, AF/KL carries maybe more Italian passengers that AZ ...
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