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Vaporware Order - Lion Air And The 737  
User currently offlineClickhappy From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 9644 posts, RR: 68
Posted (8 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 6392 times:
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Has anything more been heard about the Lion Air order for 60 737-800's and -900's?

Seems the original order was for 60 frames (source: Forbes) yet Boeing lists the order as 30 on their website.

I also seem to remember there was some question about how Lion Air was going to actually pay for these planes. Any news on that?

36 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineScbriml From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2003, 12639 posts, RR: 46
Reply 1, posted (8 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 6319 times:
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Clickhappy, is this another Airbus bashing thread? Oh wait...  wink 

According to this here Boeing press release the order was for "up to 60". It mentions 30 firm and 30 options.
http://www.boeing.com/commercial/news/2005/q3/nr_050718g.html



Time flies like an arrow, but fruit flies like a banana!
User currently offlineClickhappy From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 9644 posts, RR: 68
Reply 2, posted (8 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 6300 times:
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Always a bad sign to launch a new variation with a vaporware order.

The press release you linked to says the 737-900ER will have an EIS in mid-2007. So Boeing is going ahead? Anyone have any details on when the first 900ER will role out?


User currently offlineStarrion From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 1126 posts, RR: 2
Reply 3, posted (8 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 6294 times:

If we're going to talk vaporware orders what is the status of Primaris....

If the order makes the OEM website it should be considered cast in stone unless the company itself does a FLYI. .. ..



Knowledge Replaces Fear
User currently offlineClickhappy From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 9644 posts, RR: 68
Reply 4, posted (8 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 6246 times:
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Primaris was never counted as an order. Primaris does not show up as a customer on any of the Boeing 'Order and Delivery' webpages.

At any rate, this thread is about Lion Air.


User currently offlineBoeingBus From United States of America, joined May 2004, 1597 posts, RR: 17
Reply 5, posted (8 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 6213 times:

Quoting Clickhappy (Reply 2):
Always a bad sign to launch a new variation with a vaporware order.

Who gave you the authority to designate what is vaporware and what is not???? LOL... I find these posts very humorous. I guess Boeing is a fool signed up for vaporware. lol...

SpiceJet has also signed for the 739ER. Are they in your vaporware order book too? lol... sorry...

give us a hint on next weeks Vaporware post? I'm dying here to know...

Cheers,

Ric



Airbus or Boeing - it's all good to me!
User currently offlineClickhappy From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 9644 posts, RR: 68
Reply 6, posted (8 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 6175 times:
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My definition of a Vaporware order is an order from an airline that is either very small or brand new that orders a s-load of planes, and then you never hear from them again.

60 frames from an airline that has never ordered new before is an eyeopener.

If my topics somehow offend you feel free to not read them.


User currently offlineN328KF From United States of America, joined May 2004, 6491 posts, RR: 3
Reply 7, posted (8 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 6161 times:

Quoting Clickhappy (Reply 6):
My definition of a Vaporware order is an order from an airline that is either very small or brand new that orders a s-load of planes, and then you never hear from them again.

Like...jetBlue?



When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' T.Roosevelt
User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 31124 posts, RR: 85
Reply 8, posted (8 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 6142 times:
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Well I guess we should just consider the sub-Asian/Indian market "vapor" since these large "vaporware" orders come from carriers based in those markets:

• Lion Air's 739ER order.
• IndiGo's A320 order.

What next, we call Air India's 68-plane 777/787 order vaporware? How about Kingfisher and Indian Airlines large Airbus narrowbody orders?  

[Edited 2006-01-04 22:36:22]

User currently offlineClickhappy From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 9644 posts, RR: 68
Reply 9, posted (8 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 6134 times:
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No, not like JetBlue.

JetBlue had major investors and came together rather quickly.


User currently offlineN328KF From United States of America, joined May 2004, 6491 posts, RR: 3
Reply 10, posted (8 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 6128 times:

Quoting Clickhappy (Reply 9):
JetBlue had major investors and came together rather quickly.

How do you know LionAir doesn't have major investors? Because you haven't heard of them? Sheesh.



When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' T.Roosevelt
User currently offlineA319XFW From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (8 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 6119 times:

Quoting Stitch (Reply 8):
And you forgot Ryanair and easyJet, N328KF

Didn't Ryanair and easyJet start off with leased aircraft though.
Thus they didn't order straight from Boeing to start with. and once they did place their orders they were the largest LCC's in Europe.


User currently offlineClickhappy From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 9644 posts, RR: 68
Reply 12, posted (8 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 6106 times:
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No, because a Google search for LionAir Investors brings back very little information.

I also read they were having trouble lining up financing.

And what do you mean by LionAir and IndiGo being in the same market?


User currently offlineN79969 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (8 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 6100 times:

Quoting Stitch (Reply 8):
Well I guess we should just consider the Indian market "vapor" since these large "vaporware" orders come from carriers based in that market:

• Lion Air's 739ER order.
• IndiGo's A320 order.

I thought Lion Air is Indonesian.


User currently offlineClickhappy From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 9644 posts, RR: 68
Reply 14, posted (8 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 6089 times:
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So did I, but I guess since they both start with "I" they are the same market.

User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 31124 posts, RR: 85
Reply 15, posted (8 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 6083 times:
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Quoting N79969 (Reply 13):
I thought Lion Air is Indonesian.

Don't know ( can't ya tell?  Smile )

Quoting Clickhappy (Reply 14):
So did I, but I guess since they both start with "I" they are the same market.

Works for me.  Wink


User currently offlineA319XFW From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (8 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 6043 times:

Here we have it... Indonesia!

http://www.lionair.co.id/about.htm

Quote:

Routes
Lion Air headquarter is in Jakarta. Presently. Lion Air holds fifty domestic routes including all of the high volume routes which have been confirmed by the Indonesian government and has the destinations to and from the Asia Pacific region.


User currently offlineN328KF From United States of America, joined May 2004, 6491 posts, RR: 3
Reply 17, posted (8 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 6023 times:

Quoting Clickhappy (Reply 12):
No, because a Google search for LionAir Investors brings back very little information.

Do you read Indonesian?

Quoting Clickhappy (Reply 12):
I also read they were having trouble lining up financing.

Read, where? Here?



When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' T.Roosevelt
User currently offlineLN-MOW From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 1908 posts, RR: 13
Reply 18, posted (8 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 6011 times:

Quoting Stitch (Reply 15):
Quoting N79969 (Reply 13):
I thought Lion Air is Indonesian.

Don't know ( can't ya tell? Smile )



Quoting Stitch (Reply 15):
Quoting Clickhappy (Reply 14):
So did I, but I guess since they both start with "I" they are the same market.

Works for me. Wink

'I' also stands for 'Ignorant'. Very appropriate in this case...



- I am LN-MOW, and I approve this message.
User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 31124 posts, RR: 85
Reply 19, posted (8 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 5987 times:
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Quoting LN-MOW (Reply 18):
'I' also stands for 'Ignorant'. Very appropriate in this case...

Well UA is my specialty.  

But at least I'm willing to accept when I am wrong and learn when educated, which seems to be a virtue in this forum.  Silly

[Edited 2006-01-04 23:11:48]

User currently offlineClickhappy From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 9644 posts, RR: 68
Reply 20, posted (8 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 5979 times:
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I don't read Hindi either, but there seems to be plenty of information about Indian carries through Google, so I don't know what your point is other than to be ignorant and combative.

When President Yudhoyono visited Washington DC in May they said they would pay for the aircraft with bank loans, yet no news has been forthcoming.


User currently offlinePanAm_DC10 From Australia, joined Aug 2000, 4188 posts, RR: 89
Reply 21, posted (8 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 5877 times:
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Quoting Clickhappy (Reply 6):
My definition of a Vaporware order is an order from an airline that is either very small or brand new that orders a s-load of planes,

Well this airline already operates a fleet of 30 plus MD-80s IIRC so they at least have a lot more infrastructure in place than some other "start ups" or "small carriers"

Quoting BoeingBus (Reply 5):
SpiceJet has also signed for the 739ER.

No they have not. However, they have expressed an interest in buying the model. Get your facts right or maybe "vapor" world is too enjoyable.

Quoting Clickhappy (Reply 12):
I also read they were having trouble lining up financing.

Not according to this report, fair use excerpt

By Soraya Permatasari
Sept. 30 (Bloomberg) -- PT Lion Mentari Airlines, Indonesia's biggest budget carrier, has obtained $3.7 billion in loans to fund the purchase of 60 planes from Boeing Co., Bisnis Indonesia reported, citing a company official.


For full financing details I suggest you place a call to the Export-Import Bank, the one owned and operated by the Government of the USA. I've no doubt they would be more than willing to provide you with the financing they have arranged for Lion Air. What? With you being a Federal Taxpayer and all, surely you deserve an answer, no?

Quoting Clickhappy (Reply 9):
JetBlue had major investors and came together rather quickly

The U.S. Governments money is more highly rated than that of Mr George Soros whom was one of the seed investors in JetBlue

Quoting Clickhappy (Reply 2):
Anyone have any details on when the first 900ER will role out?

The caveats in those loans indicate that Lion Air will take delivery of their first 739ER in May 2007. If not a 739ER it will be a 738.

Quoting Clickhappy (Reply 12):
No, because a Google search for LionAir Investors brings back very little information

When it comes to financing a Credit Risk such as that of said operator. There is a whole lot more to the world than Google, I suggest you use it. Here's a starter, The International Finance Review. Good hunting.

Regards, PanAm_DC10



Ask the impossible to achieve the best possible
User currently offlineClickhappy From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 9644 posts, RR: 68
Reply 22, posted (8 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 days ago) and read 5845 times:
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Thank you for your info!

Nice to see they got the $$$ lined up.

Your sarcasim cheapens an otherwise excellent post.


User currently offlineAerokiwi From New Zealand, joined Jul 2000, 2737 posts, RR: 4
Reply 23, posted (8 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 days ago) and read 5818 times:

Quoting Clickhappy (Reply 22):
Your sarcasim cheapens an otherwise excellent post.

That's a bit rich isn't it? You've been mocking Lion Air this whole thread despite admitting you know little about them. Oh and a Google search is yet to be the definitive in information gathering...yet.


User currently offlineClickhappy From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 9644 posts, RR: 68
Reply 24, posted (8 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 days ago) and read 5800 times:
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I dont know where I mocked them but whatever you say. If I was going to mock it would look something like "Isn't New Zealand an Australian state?"

See the difference?

I am glad that LionAir is going to be getting these planes, and I can't wait to photograph them @ BFI.

I find it odd that so many small airlines are planning such explosive growth. Another example os the head of Air Asia saying he wants to have 400 planes (in what seems like a very short period of time).


25 Post contains images BoeingBus : YES, you are so absolutely right... There was an article in the news recently about their interest... Glad you retain these details...
26 Post contains images PanAm_DC10 : You are most welcome Respectfully, that could be construed as a two-way street sir. Besides, if my tax $$$ were going to that country, which they are
27 N79969 : I like the Daily Show's description: It's Australia's Canada...
28 BHMBAGLOCK : I think that if you had left the "Vaporware" comment out and simply asked for the help of others in determining whether or not the financing was arra
29 MD90fan : If Lion Air takes up all the options from the 739ER order , their fleet of those aircraft alone will be as large as Garuda's all together (mid 50's).
30 Ikramerica : A great reason not to fly B6!
31 Scbriml : India and China are the two huge boom markets at the moment. With rapidly expanding economies and a combined population of 2.5 billion (that's 10 tim
32 Post contains images Aerokiwi : Off-topic but so true!! I've often thought that about us Wow, so why on earth is New Zealand being discussed on the Daily Show?
33 Mandala499 : There's no way that all 60 can be absorbed by Lion... Quite a few of Lion's 739s will probably end up in their ACMI Ops in Vietnam (Pacific Airlines)
34 HB-IWC : I second Mandala499's opinion. Lion Air is extremely unlikely to ever take up the 30 firm orders it has supposedly made. Their active fleet is down fr
35 Mandala499 : HB-IWC, U got a list on what's been ACMI-ed out to Pacific and MAI by Lion? Mandala499
36 Post contains links OyKIE : According to this article they have not signed yet, but will do that this year http://www.thehindubusinessline.com/...12/28/stories/2005122802960900.
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