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787 LED Lighting - Color Combinations  
User currently online1337Delta764 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6648 posts, RR: 2
Posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 8896 times:

The wikipedia article claims that the 787 will be able to produce 128 color combinations. I have made a brief mention of this on the 787 mockup thread.

My question is: What colors will be used?

Here are my thoughts on certain colors for lighting on the 787:


  • Blue - Highly advertised on Boeing's 787 mockups, this would be ideal for an overnight flight.
  • Red - A good color for a morning flight.
  • Green - I hope airlines don't light the cabin in green. Green simply isn't a color for aircraft lighting.
  • Yellow - Same with green.
  • Purple - This color could be used for stormy flights
  • Pink - Like red, this color would be ideal for morning flights.
  • Orange - Ideal for evening flights.

Once again, there will be 128 color combinations

Any thoughts on this?


The Pink Delta 767-400ER - The most beautiful aircraft in the sky
51 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineMDorBust From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 8881 times:

Thought #1: Can we program them to dance to Dark Side of the Moon?

Thought #2: Mx Nightmare incoming

Thought #3: .....

Thought #4: Please stay with a pale yellow. It's what the human mind is most conditioned for.


User currently offlineZbrox From Sweden, joined Jan 2006, 88 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 8834 times:

Why stop at 128?
With R, G and B you can create as many as you want....


User currently offlineN328KF From United States of America, joined May 2004, 6491 posts, RR: 3
Reply 3, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 8834 times:

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 1):
Thought #2: Mx Nightmare incoming

It's not like there are 128 different "bulbs." And LEDs don't burn out.



When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' T.Roosevelt
User currently offlineGlom From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2005, 2821 posts, RR: 10
Reply 4, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 8830 times:

Agree no green or yellow. I like the blue, purple and red bit.

User currently offlineMDorBust From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 8792 times:

Quoting N328KF (Reply 3):
It's not like there are 128 different "bulbs." And LEDs don't burn out.

Yes, LED lights do burn out.

But that's not what I was referring to. In order to have a system that can vary the color LED's are produceing, you will need to be able to vary the voltage travelling to the light assembly. This will require a complex power and control system. Much more advanced than a common dimmer system set up with standard white lights.


User currently offlineGlom From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2005, 2821 posts, RR: 10
Reply 6, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 8778 times:

Maybe they could use fibre optics. That would localise the lighting source to a more convenient area.

User currently offlineFlyf15 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 8763 times:

So there are going to be 128 colors of light? Where exactly is this going to be... general cabin lighting?

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 1):
Please stay with a pale yellow. It's what the human mind is most conditioned for.

I agree. Our eyes / minds are conditioned to work best with the color of sunlight as see on the Earth's surface. It is what is most comfortable, easiest to read in, etc. Other colors could induce headaches, unwanted moods, etc...

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Thread starter):
Purple - This color could be used for stormy flights

Purple light, stormy night flight with lots of turbulence... that would be a terrific nightmare for scared flyers.


User currently offlineDavidT From Switzerland, joined Oct 2005, 477 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 8711 times:

Quoting Zbrox (Reply 2):
Why stop at 128?
With R, G and B you can create as many as you want....

I assume they'll only offer set levels for each of RGB. Like on PCs you choose from RGB 0-255, = 256^3, or 16 million colours.

Although 128 colours = 5.0396 different levels for each for R,G,B so I'm assuming the colours are programmed in rather than choosing from a mixer.


User currently offlineAtmx2000 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 4576 posts, RR: 37
Reply 9, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 8705 times:

Quoting Flyf15 (Reply 7):

Purple light, stormy night flight with lots of turbulence... that would be a terrific nightmare for scared flyers.

Yes, they should do stuff like that only on Halloween.  Smile



ConcordeBoy is a twin supremacist!! He supports quadicide!!
User currently offlineAA737-823 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 5947 posts, RR: 11
Reply 10, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 8644 times:

Have you not seen those chintzy Christmas decorations that came out the last couple of years?
They're glass balls and stuff, and they have just THREE LEDs in the base, and they change colors infinitely. They're like ten bucks.

So no, MDorBust, I would argue that it is not going to "require a complex power and control system. Much more advanced than a common dimmer system set up with standard white lights."

Cheap electronic stuff.
And VERY lightweight.

If it can be powered by a single AA battery, I doubt it's complex. We're talking one microchip.


User currently offlineChrisrad From Australia, joined Dec 2000, 1072 posts, RR: 8
Reply 11, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 8633 times:

I had the new lighting system on an MH 772, was very good.



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User currently offline7E7Fan From Sweden, joined May 2004, 72 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 8613 times:

Well I am only guessing here but as some of you have already touched on, it's probably not so much that there will be a 128 different colors of lighting. Rather a palette of 128 colors that they can use for the programmable lighting system? You know for instance the rude awakening one gets on long-haul flights when after 6 hrs of semi-sleep cramped up in your seat (yeah, I don't get to fly First very often  Sad ) you are wakened by a chippy stewardess that just cranks on the overhead fluorescent lights because it is breakfast-time. And everybody is sitting there blinking like owls.

Well Boeing has already talked about that they will be doing gradual changes of lighting kind of like outside. So that you have a bluish night-mode that then gradually goes through a dawn-period of reddish colors that then via yellow approaches white. Hence no owls and no heart-attacks  Smile

Then of course as we can see in the mock-up shots there seems likes they are going to do clear natural sign for instance for lavatories. Green above the door means no applicants for the mile-high club inside and red means that they likely don't want you to rattle the handle just then  Smile

/Mike


User currently offlineMDorBust From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 8585 times:

Quoting AA737-823 (Reply 10):
Have you not seen those chintzy Christmas decorations that came out the last couple of years?
They're glass balls and stuff, and they have just THREE LEDs in the base, and they change colors infinitely. They're like ten bucks.

So no, MDorBust, I would argue that it is not going to "require a complex power and control system. Much more advanced than a common dimmer system set up with standard white lights."

Cheap electronic stuff.
And VERY lightweight.

If it can be powered by a single AA battery, I doubt it's complex. We're talking one microchip.

You know what?

I have this cheap little electronic plane. It runs off of AA batteries. Switch it on and it flies around for a while. How can planes cost hundreds of millions?

Welcome to the worst comparisson today on A-net.

A christmas decoration is NOT an aircraft lighting system.


User currently offlineKilljoy From Finland, joined Dec 1999, 646 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 8505 times:

Do they really just use RGB? If they are, they're going to have problems. While an RGB light itself can be made to look like any color, all surfaces it hits will completely pervert the lighting.

For example, let's say you have a surface that reflects yellow light (it's yellow). If full spectrum light hits it, it will obviously reflect the yellow part and thus appear yellow.

However, if it is hit by RGB "white", it will in fact not reflect any light, as it only reflects Yellow, not R or B or G. It'll look like it's black.


Edit: and that article has bad information anyway. It says the 787 cabin will be 15" wider than the A330/A350 cabin although we know that the A350 cabin will also be improved, even if not by as much.

[Edited 2006-01-05 02:09:55]

User currently offlineLincoln From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 3887 posts, RR: 8
Reply 15, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 8366 times:

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Thread starter):
Red - A good color for a morning flight.

Maybe your idea of red and my idea of red are different, but WTF? I can't imagine waking up to a horror movie/crime scene lookalike to be good for a morning flight. Orange, perhaps, but red?

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 1):
Thought #2: Mx Nightmare incoming

I don't see that much of a mx issue... Instead of one dimmer there are three that are controlled in tandem (R, G, and B) plus some kind of color mixing device (unless the FA is just given "R", "G", and "B" knobs), as a trade-off the lamps last longer (though not indefinately), the system consumes less power (don't know how big a factor this is on aircraft), and presumably weighs about the same if not a little less overall. Then again, I don't work on aircraft, so I really have no idea what I'm talking about in this particular regard.

Quoting AA737-823 (Reply 10):
Cheap electronic stuff.
And VERY lightweight.

Yeaaahhh... Are your Christmas lights certified by the FAA or any other aviation authority? How redundant are they? How likely are they to fuel a fire in the event of an abnormal cabin environment? If you can show that your "cheap electronic stuff" meets the requirements of Title 14 of the Code of Federal Regulations sections 21.303, 21.601-21.621, 25.823, 25.1353, 25.1363, etc.* then I'll be somewhat more impressed.

There's a reason (well several of them, but...) why just about anything that is installed in an airplane is VERY expensive, even if it looks just like this other thing that would never be installed in an airplane.

(I have a feeling if airlines could get away with stringing christmas lights through the cabin rather than dealing with mantaining the "real" systems, they would  Wink)

Lincoln

*- Some of these may not be completely relevent, though portions of them would seem to apply, also there are bound to be dozens of regulations that I haven't included.



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User currently online1337Delta764 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6648 posts, RR: 2
Reply 16, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 8315 times:

Quoting Lincoln (Reply 15):
Maybe your idea of red and my idea of red are different, but WTF? I can't imagine waking up to a horror movie/crime scene lookalike to be good for a morning flight. Orange, perhaps, but red?

I personally think pink would be a good alternative, but some people would think pink as too feminine. Therefore, red IMO would be the best choice.



The Pink Delta 767-400ER - The most beautiful aircraft in the sky
User currently offlineZone1 From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 1035 posts, RR: 7
Reply 17, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 8315 times:

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 5):
This will require a complex power and control system.

Not really. My roommate made a circuit that pulses a white LED using pulse width modulation. To change colors the same type of curcuit will be needed, instead you dim three different LEDs to make various colors. I don't see it being that complex, you could probably do build the circuit needed to do this using parts from Radio Shack. I've seen circuits that do PWM using 555 ICs ($1.50 at Radio Shack).



/// U N I T E D
User currently offlineAtmx2000 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 4576 posts, RR: 37
Reply 18, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 8130 times:

Quoting Killjoy (Reply 14):
Edit: and that article has bad information anyway. It says the 787 cabin will be 15" wider than the A330/A350 cabin although we know that the A350 cabin will also be improved, even if not by as much.

The 787 cabin has about 12 to 13" more usable space from what I can determine.

Quoting Killjoy (Reply 14):
For example, let's say you have a surface that reflects yellow light (it's yellow). If full spectrum light hits it, it will obviously reflect the yellow part and thus appear yellow.

However, if it is hit by RGB "white", it will in fact not reflect any light, as it only reflects Yellow, not R or B or G. It'll look like it's black.

Absorption and reflection of different colors isn't so absolute for most materials. Anyway I doubt it is pure RGB light. They have only 7 bits to work with with 128 colors, so they probably have pure white light as well as 7 isn't divisible by 3.



ConcordeBoy is a twin supremacist!! He supports quadicide!!
User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21583 posts, RR: 59
Reply 19, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 7951 times:

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 1):
Please stay with a pale yellow

well, our minds adjust sunlight to look pale yellow, but it is actually bluish. fire light is orange/yellow though, like various incadescents. many flourescents have a greenish cast, which is one reason humans don't respond to them, though the ones with "warm" coatings help mitigate that, though they do lack certain wavelengths.



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineKilljoy From Finland, joined Dec 1999, 646 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 7845 times:

Quoting Atmx2000 (Reply 18):
Absorption and reflection of different colors isn't so absolute for most materials. Anyway I doubt it is pure RGB light. They have only 7 bits to work with with 128 colors, so they probably have pure white light as well as 7 isn't divisible by 3.

I know it's not that absolute, but I needed a simple example. It'll still often look wrong, though.

7 bits doesn't sound too convincing either, actually. 2 bits per channel + white on/off isn't exactly going to give them a lot of options.


User currently online1337Delta764 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6648 posts, RR: 2
Reply 21, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 6913 times:

Quoting Killjoy (Reply 20):
7 bits doesn't sound too convincing either, actually. 2 bits per channel + white on/off isn't exactly going to give them a lot of options.

Don't 4-bit and 8-bit color usually use an indexed pallete rather than direct channels? I know that is how GIF works.

I am not sure whether the 787's lighting would have an indexed pallete.



The Pink Delta 767-400ER - The most beautiful aircraft in the sky
User currently offlineAtlantic From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2004, 22 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 6096 times:

Quoting Lincoln (Reply 15):
Yeaaahhh... Are your Christmas lights certified by the FAA or any other aviation authority? How redundant are they? How likely are they to fuel a fire in the event of an abnormal cabin environment? If you can show that your "cheap electronic stuff" meets the requirements of Title 14 of the Code of Federal Regulations sections 21.303, 21.601-21.621, 25.823, 25.1353, 25.1363, etc.* then I'll be somewhat more impressed.

yes you just certify them and then its the same cheap stuff used in Christmas lights with maybe different plastic etc. So the comparison is not far fetched. Many of the chips used in flight computers have had a product life before in regular off-the-shelf PC's. Of course it will be more expensive but rather because of the certification than because of the hardware itself. Economies of scale rule the semiconductor world. If something is different it's the cabling etc.


User currently offlineAtmx2000 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 4576 posts, RR: 37
Reply 23, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 5969 times:

Quoting Killjoy (Reply 20):
I know it's not that absolute, but I needed a simple example. It'll still often look wrong, though.

7 bits doesn't sound too convincing either, actually. 2 bits per channel + white on/off isn't exactly going to give them a lot of options.

It gives them 64 colors, in a couple of shades for a total of 128 colors.

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 21):
Don't 4-bit and 8-bit color usually use an indexed pallete rather than direct channels? I know that is how GIF works.

I am not sure whether the 787's lighting would have an indexed pallete.

Yes, but in at least the case of 8 bit color, the underlying system can display more colors, just not all at the same time. I doubt that is the case with the 787.



ConcordeBoy is a twin supremacist!! He supports quadicide!!
User currently online1337Delta764 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6648 posts, RR: 2
Reply 24, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 5667 times:

I personally don't think every single color would be used by an airline, just some basic passenger-friendly colors. Once again, I hope that nobody uses greenish or yellowish colors. I would like white for day, blue for night, red/pink for morning, orange for evening, and purple for storms.


The Pink Delta 767-400ER - The most beautiful aircraft in the sky
25 Radiocheck : I love the idea of the colored lights in the cabin. In fact, I suggest that in addition to the lights, Boeing should install fireplaces in the bulkhea
26 Zbrox : Talk of Bits etc indicates posters of an age where colors are computer screens and pixels only. There are no such thing as indexed colors IRL... Hate
27 Ikramerica : Or just seasonal options during boarding. Green, red and yellow at christmas, orange and purple on halloween, pastels during easter, red white and bl
28 1337Delta764 : I don't know if multiple colors at different sections will be supported, but IMO woudn't be very passenger friendly.
29 Ikramerica : no, i was thinking that within one section different lights would be able to be different shades. it really depends on the system.
30 TristarSteve : Instead of guessing, why not go out on a new B777 and see how it works. Most of the MH B777 have mood lighting in Business class. Every time I go on b
31 1337Delta764 : You know that it might not be the exact same system that the 787 will feature.
32 TristarSteve : Of course I don't know anything, but there is so much technical know how in this thread by everyone that does, I thought I would mention that the end
33 Killjoy : The source, dubious as it may be, said the 787 cabin lighting could produce 128 different colors. It is most certainly appropriate to talk about bits
34 Chrisrad : See reply 11. This system is already being used by MH on their upgraded 744's and 772's
35 DocLightning : So variable-color LED lighting systems are a few years old. Anyone who has been to the Burning Man festival (or, for that matter, has seen a large LCD
36 Atmx2000 : Ahem, 7 bits codes for 128 values. And I can't see a software reason to limit ones self to 128 values in this age of cheap 32 bit processors and memo
37 AerospaceFan : One thing that bothers me about some kinds of LED lighting is the "flicker" effect. Take the LED brake lights of certain late-model vehicles, for exam
38 Zbrox : The really interesting thing is that a bunch of people (=men) sit around the world and discuss color variations in interior lighting in a non-existing
39 Post contains images Killjoy : Since all of this is highly subjective, I decided to create a chart. It represents 4 levels per color (RGB, off to max) and an extra white light (on/
40 Atmx2000 : Zbrox is going to razz you for this.
41 GVWOW : Another interesting aspect of lighting the 787 could use is complimentary tinting. In this setup, the desired color does not come from one particular
42 Post contains images Zbrox : RAZZ... Not much into theories (Never went to school...) But I did work as a roadie/lighting-designer in the analog days. And with three flood lights
43 Zbrox : Now we're talking!
44 DLPMMM : There are engineering reasons for the transition to this type of lighting system: 1. The certification will be much easier than for incandescent syste
45 1337Delta764 : Here is how LED pricing is usually, from cheapest to most expensive: 1. Red 2. Green, Yellow, and Orange 3. Blue, White, and Pure Green* 4. Pink and p
46 Gigneil : At any rate, this is available now on the A340 and 777... nothing real new. N
47 Swissy : What gets me is LED's are around for a long time........ There are a lot cheaper to make, run longer use less power... oh wait that is to good lets no
48 Post contains images BR715-A1-30 : 128 Color Combinations... Are they gonna have a Dance Dance Revolution Pad in the plane.?
49 Killjoy : I still fail to see the significance of this analogy. If you can prove that the source was wrong, I see your point, but if the control system really
50 DC8FriendShip : In practice, of course it is a little more complicated. Different materials react differently to light, so you have to be careful or you could end up
51 Post contains images Lincoln : The only reason I see (and I'm not an EE or really, even an die-hard electronic components hobbyest [sp?]-- but I do automation programming for a liv
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