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Airbus Says B787 Composite Unsafe (part 2)  
User currently offline777ER From New Zealand, joined Dec 2003, 12090 posts, RR: 18
Posted (8 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 14451 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

Following on from Airbus Questions Composite Safety? (by Dougloid Jan 3 2006 in Civil Aviation)

Boeing is reassuring airlines over the use of composite material for the primary structure of the 787 following claims by Airbus that the new Boeing twinjet could be grounded “because of a scratch in the paint”.

http://www.flightinternational.com/A...afety+claims+infuriate+Boeing.html

[Edited 2006-01-05 12:37:26]

116 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineScorpio From Belgium, joined Oct 2001, 5023 posts, RR: 44
Reply 1, posted (8 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 14433 times:

Does anyone do a search here anymore these days before they start a thread?

Airbus Questions Composite Safety? (by Dougloid Jan 3 2006 in Civil Aviation)


User currently offline777ER From New Zealand, joined Dec 2003, 12090 posts, RR: 18
Reply 2, posted (8 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 14414 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

Changed the thread to part 2, as the original thread took close to 5 minutes to load

[Edited 2006-01-05 12:38:23]

User currently offlinePanAm_DC10 From Australia, joined Aug 2000, 4135 posts, RR: 90
Reply 3, posted (8 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 14330 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
COMMUNITY MANAGER

Quoting Scorpio (Reply 1):
Does anyone do a search here anymore these days before they start a thread?

Scorpio you raise a valid point but as 777ER states;

Quoting 777ER (Reply 2):
Changed the thread to part 2, as the original thread took close to 5 minutes to load

Not every user has the latest technology or the best internet connections. To his credit he provided the link to the original post and article. 777ER has had this problem before, amongst others, and the moderators have assisted him and other forum members in his situation.

I have seen this in the past and the discussion continue in the way the Moderators wish as after 140 plus replies the real technical issues are being discussed in earnest and we learn even more.

My  twocents 

Regards, PanAm_DC10



Ask the impossible to achieve the best possible
User currently offlineThorben From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (8 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 14203 times:

I dunno about this 787. In some article I read that they want to build the fuselage parts out of composits and glue them together with some sort of resin. Reminded me of my scale models, but didn't sound right for a real aircraft. Anyway, Airbus has a lot of experience with composites, there must be a reason why half of the so-called advanced materials of the A350 are going to be AL, instead of composites.

User currently offlineJwenting From Netherlands, joined Apr 2001, 10213 posts, RR: 18
Reply 5, posted (8 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 14182 times:

Ah, so just because Airbus has experience with comps everything they say about it is gospel?


I wish I were flying
User currently offlineSebolino From France, joined May 2001, 3681 posts, RR: 4
Reply 6, posted (8 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 14150 times:

Come on ... first can we have the exact sentence used by Airbus ?
Because it seems they didn't say at all that composites are unsafe (which would be rather strange and even stupid), but thay said something about the maintenance certification ... All we have is the reaction of Boeing, but not the "action".


User currently offlineThorben From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (8 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 14140 times:

Quoting Jwenting (Reply 5):
Ah, so just because Airbus has experience with comps everything they say about it is gospel?

No, but since they have experience and do it in a different way, I feel my own doubts strengthened.


User currently offlineN79969 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (8 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 14122 times:

Quoting Thorben (Reply 4):
Reminded me of my scale models, but didn't sound right for a real aircraft. Anyway, Airbus has a lot of experience with composites, there must be a reason why half of the so-called advanced materials of the A350 are going to be AL, instead of composites.

As the A350 exists, it will enter service two years after the 787. If they were to try to match or beat the 787, the EIS would be pushed backed even further. In the meantime, it would leave the B787 the entire market...so they had to make a decision.


User currently offlinePavlin From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (8 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 14106 times:

Boeing also didn't like bigger planes than 747-400 but is building 747-8 to counter A380.
It is only a matter of time and all planes will be composite


User currently offlineGARPD From UK - Scotland, joined Aug 2005, 2644 posts, RR: 4
Reply 10, posted (8 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 14057 times:

Quoting Thorben (Reply 4):
there must be a reason why half of the so-called advanced materials of the A350 are going to be AL, instead of composites.

Because you cannot simply re engineer an old metal fuselage with composites, you'd have to more or less start from scratch, and that would cost time and money, neither of which Airbus has in the figures that would be needed

Its not as simple as just swapping a metal skin for a composite one. Far far from it.

Long story short, A350 is a modification, 787 all new.



arpdesign.wordpress.com
User currently offlineBoeing7E7 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (8 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 13995 times:

Quoting 777ER (Thread starter):
Boeing is reassuring airlines over the use of composite material for the primary structure of the 787 following claims by Airbus that the new Boeing twinjet could be grounded “because of a scratch in the paint”.

Read...The 787 is kicking our butts. We can't argue technical merit, so we'll just start making things up.

Quoting Thorben (Reply 7):
No, but since they have experience and do it in a different way, I feel my own doubts strengthened.

And so does Boeing:

A little dated -

http://www.boeing.com/news/feature/concept/photok62055.html

This isn't GLARE, which Airbus is most familiar with.

[Edited 2006-01-05 14:48:56]

User currently offlineDAYflyer From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 3807 posts, RR: 3
Reply 12, posted (8 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 13948 times:

Quoting Thorben (Reply 7):
No, but since they have experience and do it in a different way, I feel my own doubts strengthened.

Yes they do have experience. Boeing has experience since they have been manufacturing military aircraft from composite structures since about 1976. You do not hear or see these aircraft falling out of the sky because they fell apart, do you? No. They are required to withstand g forces far greater and much more demanding than any civilian airliner.

And if Airbus says the A-300 tail fell off the AA plane due to composite failure, they make themselves legally liable for the crash and subject themsselves to a huge lawsuit.

I must therefore conclude that this is a bunch of Boeing bashing because of the success of the 787 program. Airbus is mad and will say anything to defeat this airplane in the market.....



One Nation Under God
User currently offlineHalibut From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (8 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 13892 times:

I said this in part I : Boeing has far more experience regarding composites than we are awear of . Boeing has been working on the 787 manufacturing process for the past 10 years !!!

Airbus Questions Composite Safety? (by Dougloid Jan 3 2006 in Civil Aviation)

I wouldn't be surprised to learn that there is a classified Boeing aircraft the size of the 787 with a composite fuse. flying as we speak .

For Boeing to have this much confidence in composites , it leads me to believe they have far more experiance in this field then thay are able to actknowledge . Lets not forget that Boeing has been around far longer than Airbus ! And Boeing is one of many US aircraft manufacturers that are in the Vanguard regarding extremely advanced classified aircraft .

http://www.boeing.com/news/releases/2002/q4/nr_021018m.html


Boeing Unveils Bird of Prey Stealth Technology Demonstrator

ST. LOUIS, Oct. 18, 2002 -- Boeing [NYSE: BA] today unveiled the "Bird of Prey," a technology demonstrator that pioneered breakthrough low-observable technologies and revolutionized aircraft design, development and production. The once highly classified project ran from 1992 through 1999, and was revealed because the technologies and capabilities developed have become industry standards, and it is no longer necessary to conceal the aircraft's existence.

In addition to proving many new stealth concepts, the Bird of Prey program demonstrated innovative rapid prototyping techniques. Developed by the Boeing Phantom Works advanced research-and-development organization, the Bird of Prey was among the first to initiate the use of large, single-piece composite structures; low-cost, disposable tooling; and 3-D virtual reality design and assembly processes to ensure the aircraft was affordable to build as well as high-performing.

Halibut


User currently offlineHalls120 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (8 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 13869 times:

Quoting DAYflyer (Reply 12):
Yes they do have experience. Boeing has experience since they have been manufacturing military aircraft from composite structures since about 1976. You do not hear or see these aircraft falling out of the sky because they fell apart, do you? No. They are required to withstand g forces far greater and much more demanding than any civilian airliner.

And if Airbus says the A-300 tail fell off the AA plane due to composite failure, they make themselves legally liable for the crash and subject themsselves to a huge lawsuit.

I must therefore conclude that this is a bunch of Boeing bashing because of the success of the 787 program. Airbus is mad and will say anything to defeat this airplane in the market.....

What strikes me as funny about Airbus' latest attack on Boeing is that in a December issue of AW&ST, they had a five page ad touting the A350, and on one of the pages, they were gushing about the technological advances of the aircraft and its use of composites.

I guess composites are only OK if Airbus uses them, right?


User currently offlineDAYflyer From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 3807 posts, RR: 3
Reply 15, posted (8 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 13858 times:

And I'm sure the Japanese have no idea how to build anything either, being so "lo tech" themselves.......  sarcastic 


One Nation Under God
User currently offlineBoeing7E7 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (8 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 13834 times:

Quoting Halibut (Reply 13):
I wouldn't be surprised to learn that there is a classified Boeing aircraft the size of the 787 with a composite fuse. flying as we speak .

That might be a bit much...


User currently offlineDougloid From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (8 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 13797 times:

Quoting Sebolino (Reply 6):
Come on ... first can we have the exact sentence used by Airbus ?
Because it seems they didn't say at all that composites are unsafe (which would be rather strange and even stupid), but thay said something about the maintenance certification ... All we have is the reaction of Boeing, but not the "action".

That's exactly what I have been trying to find out Sebolino. I asked a pal of mine who's a well connected structures DER to direct me to the proceedings of the "safety conference". Here's his answer regarding the Guy Norris article.

I could not locate one. There are many “safety conferences” of many agendas and topics...some useful and others more abstract. The fact that Flight Intl did not specify the actual conference leads me to suspect that there is some 3rd person hearsay embedded into the story of the Flight Intl reporter is plain lazy in reporting the facts of the story.

I tried emailing Guy Norris at Flight International with every combination email address combo I could think of and they all bounced. He IS a well respected av reporter.

I'd suggest that the assembled multitude stop beating each other over the heads long enough to get on Norris' trail and get some information about this "safety conference".


User currently offlinePositiveClimb From Germany, joined Jun 2004, 214 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (8 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 13760 times:

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 17):
Does anyone here read the text of a post before they open their pie hole?

Yes, and Scorpio did so when writing his post. See the "edited" mark in the original post? The first thread was renamed to part 2 after Scorpio made his comment.

So, you might want to rephrase your comment about opening the pie hole  Yeah sure


Best regards,
Fabian/PositiveClimb Big grin



Proud Airbus employee
User currently offlineDougloid From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (8 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 13735 times:

Quoting Scorpio (Reply 1):
Scorpio From Belgium, joined Oct 2001, 2880 posts, RR: 24
Reply 1, posted Thu Jan 5 2006 12:31:08 UTC+1 and read 681 times:


Does anyone do a search here anymore these days before they start a thread?

Airbus Questions Composite Safety? (by Dougloid Jan 3 2006 in Civil Aviation)

There's the entire quote sans any reference to editing. It ain't there.

Quoting PositiveClimb (Reply 19):
So, you might want to rephrase your comment about opening the pie hole

Nope. Original question still stands.


User currently offlineNoUFO From Germany, joined Apr 2001, 7948 posts, RR: 12
Reply 20, posted (8 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 13723 times:

I'm baffled that that the two main aircraft builders now publically start disputes over safety issues. In the long term that helps neither Boeing nor Airbus let alone airlines who already have to deal with people who are afraid of flying.


I support the right to arm bears
User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12417 posts, RR: 25
Reply 21, posted (8 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 13700 times:

Quoting Thorben (Reply 4):
I dunno about this 787. In some article I read that they want to build the fuselage parts out of composits and glue them together with some sort of resin. Reminded me of my scale models, but didn't sound right for a real aircraft.

That's like saying aluminum aircraft aren't real aircraft because they use aluminum to make beer cans.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineNAV20 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 9909 posts, RR: 36
Reply 22, posted (8 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 13698 times:

Considering that, as of today, Boeing currently has 291 787s on firm order, this seems to be very much a 'non-issue'.

My own feeling is that it doesn't matter which material you use, provided that you design the aeroplane properly, and test all the components exhaustively. I spent (or misspent) part of my youth messing about in aeroplanes that were covered in doped linen fabric, and never had a moment's fear of any of the things collapsing and falling out of the air. At that time, the most celebrated and successful warplane in recent memory - the Mosquito - was still noted for having been built out of plywood and balsa-wood, as were the best-selling jet fighters of the time, Vampires and Venoms........

Boeing has engineers and the airlines have engineers, and they will have corresponded in detail about every aspect of design and materials before each and every order was placed. If the airlines had any doubts about the ability of the 787 to stand up to the rigours of day-to-day airline service - leave alone any doubts about safety - they simply would not have ordered it in such numbers.



"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
User currently offlinePositiveClimb From Germany, joined Jun 2004, 214 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (8 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 13666 times:

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 20):

There's the entire quote sans any reference to editing. It ain't there.

???
Maybe I wasn't clear enough?

What I wanted to say is that Scorpio's comment was made at the time when the original thread title didn't include the part 2-remark. So he stated (maybe not very polite, but correct IMHO) that a search should have returned your "original" thread.
Subsequently, the original poster of this thread changed the title to ...(part 2) as your "original" thread got too long. He even stated doing so in his post

Quoting 777ER (Reply 2):
Changed the thread to part 2, as the original thread took close to 5 minutes to load

which is completely okay. Therefore the comment Scorpio made seems a little out of context - but it wasn't at the time it was written.

Hope I answered your question? If your last post wasn't directed at me, then just forget what you just have read Big grin

Best regards,
Fabian/PositiveClimb Big grin



Proud Airbus employee
User currently offlineHalibut From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (8 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 13629 times:

Quoting Boeing7E7 (Reply 16):
That might be a bit much...

So I did do too many Bong hits !  cloudnine 

Seriously ,it's just a hunch . However , Boeing have in fact been working on a very similar manufacturing process since the mid to early 90's that is being used on the 787 !

Rememeber , the US military stealth bombers were not releasted to the public some 10 years after the aircraft originally flew .

Boeing's defence/military sector is far larger than there commerial sector .

Halibut


25 Sinlock : Every material has it's risks Li-Alu, Composites, GLAIR. Boeing will make it work as it should just like every company that tries a new technology. I
26 Post contains links A319XFW : You can't really compare the composite work on military aircraft to that on large airliners (perhaps only the B2 might compare). For a spar on a airl
27 Dougloid : Right....but you assume that the editing to the first post has anything to do with the O/P's second post. I did not make that assumption. I saw the t
28 Dougloid : OK, maybe Airbus ought to take their Trabant-style center section on their A380 and the wings on their A350 and prove that resin glued plastic can be
29 Post contains images Boeing767-300 : The above is very true and I see this attack by Airbus shows how desperate they have become at the sales annihilation of the 787. Thay say attack is
30 Post contains images Jacobin777 : well Thorben, since you know what kind of airplane you are going to sit on at the time of your flight, avoid the flights which offer the 787..that wo
31 DAYflyer : I beg to differ since the stealth bomber has a substanially larger wing.
32 Post contains images PPVRA : It's not like that from what I know. The resin encompasses the entire frame, and the fibers are "soaked" in it as well. You won't see wings falling o
33 Katekebo : Answering A319XFW question on: Quote: says 787 chief mechanic Justin Hale. “We all know composites can hide damage and so right up front we decided
34 Post contains links and images A319XFW : About the span of a KC-10, I'd say! http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/usa/bomber/b2_89afe101.jpg But that's Northrop and not Boeing Thanks for the explan
35 N328KF : When has Boeing done this in recent memory? Both of the recent incidents cited here were from Airbus. Boeing did a major proportion of the B-2.
36 Post contains links Ikramerica : Airbus walks a fine line when it deals with this, and frankly, if pulled over for a sobriety test, I think they fail miserably. http://www.airbus.com/
37 Moparman : So is mine. The view that Airbus is doing everything they possibly can to try to deminish the B787. Airbus used to shout "technology", now it seems t
38 Stratofortress : This move by Airbus can be summarized as following: Verzweiflung Désespérance Desespero Desperation They need to quit moaning, get some more governm
39 Wingman : But where is the actual text showing this "attack". No one seems able to confirm this one way or another and it's quite possible that Boeing is respon
40 Planemaker : Boeing is not the civil pioneer in composite use. Obviously different scale but same process, (Beech) Raytheon started the design and build of 100% c
41 N328KF : I think you misspelled "Burt Rutan."
42 Ikramerica : well, they aren't, which is part of the point. they are less susceptible. minor bumps are more likely to "bounce off" with not even a paint scrape. B
43 Post contains links and images A319XFW : I stand corrected: From: http://www.boeing.com/history/boeing/b2.html How does the technology transfer go from the military side to the civilian side
44 L-188 : Beech did the same thing for the Starship. Which means that you end up with one hell of an overbuilt structure.
45 AirEMS : Doesn't Airbus use composite tails and that was thought to be the cause of the crash shortly after 9/11? Fly Safe -Carl
46 N328KF : How often do we hear of composite fighters going in for major repairs due to shunt-and-bumps on the ramp? Not very often, so far as I can tell.
47 Planemaker : And just what does Burt Rutan have to do with developing the manufacturing process of the commercial production of composite aircraft... more specifi
48 Halibut : Never said they were . What I did say was : I was refering the there manufacturing process . Boeing annouced the composite 787 , 2 - 3 years ago . Ho
49 WhiteHatter : and most of the replies here are blatant cheerleading. Why can none of you actually discuss the issues, instead of blasting off with a Karl Rove insp
50 Atmx2000 : For the umpteenth time, provide us with the text of what Geoff Dixon said.
51 11Bravo : Could you provide a source for these remarks? You've been saying this sort of thing in a number of threads. I think it's time for you to either stop
52 Gritzngravee : That's like saying aluminum aircraft aren't real aircraft because they use aluminum to make beer cans. It's funny because it's true HAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!
53 Ikramerica : funny! yeah, always bring politics into things when you have nothing else. your posts for months smack of "blatant" flaming since you provide no evid
54 Gritzngravee : If weapons (such as glocks 100% composite metal and high powered sniper rifles that have to be light for soldiers to carry them long distances and to
55 N328KF : Who do you think designed and built the Starship prototype? Hint: It wasn't Beech.
56 Halibut : Whitehatter , Did you not see my replys ??? I feel I have provided signifcance evidence regarding Boeing's experience with composites with no " anti-A
57 Post contains images Boeing4ever : Takes one to know one now doesn't it? Ironic you trout out the politcal focus now eh? Do you think Boeing engineers haven't already factored in repai
58 Planemaker : First of all, it was not a prototype but only a 85% scale Proof-of-Concept that was hand layed-up. And not only that, it had absolutely no certifiabl
59 PlaneDane : Very well, then, no cheerleading... Could you please list the issues as you see them or have evidence of them existing? What should we be discussing t
60 DAYflyer : Absolutely. Unless it is invented by Airbus of course, then it is perfectly fine and groundbraking. Unless you count the AA disaster. Even then it wa
61 Keesje : So far no source on what was said. No other articles to be found on this "incident" on google news. I looks like some folks have emptied their guns in
62 APFPilot1985 : You really need to provide sources and stop ignoring calls for them if you want anyone to take you seriously....
63 Jacobin777 : I'm going to request A.net do something about is blatant accusations... he seems to be doing this on a consistent level on different threads without
64 Planemaker : I would like to add to your point. Not only are composites not "classified," the composites that will be used in 787 manufacturing are from Toray, a
65 Atmx2000 : Which of course is the same supplier Boeing used for composites in the 777.
66 Wah64d : And if A are right, Boeing will be sued so far into the gutter, the shareholders will be lining the streets of Seattle begging with paper cups. All w
67 Post contains images Boeing4ever : "4 engines 4 long haul". I don't see Airbus coming out with a public denial...something they should do if Boeing was just "hyper defensive". The poin
68 GARPD : Are you forgetting Airbus' response when AI ordered Boeing? Airbus whined and cried foul. This was taken as suggesting corruption. They pissed the In
69 PlaneDane : Wah64d = WhiteHatter? Could this also result in something legally actionable by Boeing against Airbus in a civil lawsuit?
70 Stratofortress : Boeing engineers woke up one day and said "Let's build an airplane out of composites." Then they all got together, came up with some random numbers li
71 Shenzhen : Airbus has simply stated something in public which they have been telling the airlines in private since the 7e7 was floated to the public. It is a bit
72 WAH64D : Yes you're clued up on Virgin Atlantic fuselage slogans. What does this have to do with Airbus? Airbus would appear to suggest that their method of c
73 Texfly101 : IMHO, this is not an issue of using composites and any problems with the safety of the design. The design of a structure, and its inherent safety, is
74 Keesje : I hit such a 787 panel in 2004. I couldn´t see if it was damaged or not. A dent was repaired by a pad, vacuum heater and sticker if I remember well.
75 Post contains images Boeing4ever : Is that why it appeared on a large AIRBUS billboard during Farnborough 2002? And how were they "intended" for use? Where is the God-given directive s
76 Post contains links Halibut : The timing of Airbus's comment regarding Boeing's composite 787 is curious ! Why didn't they mention this earlier ??? For them to mention this now cer
77 Planemaker : Airbus is not being critical of the 787's composites, nor of Boeing's manufacturing "technology." And the points that they raise are common knowledge
78 Stratofortress : Planemaker: It's radical because Airbus has questioned the safety, which is unprecedented. A and B always exchange shots, but never about safety. It i
79 Moparman : Now you have to be kidding me. Airbus will make these claims because they stand nothing or very little to loose, and very much to gain. Lets face fac
80 ER757 : Well put Nav 20! While I think Boeing faces many challenges in getting this plane to market on time, I can't imagine the basic structural integrity o
81 Post contains images Jacobin777 : actually, Airbus has with its "4 engines 4 long haul" comments back in 2002 which Sir Richard Branson has adopted....
82 Ckfred : Why would anyone believe what Airbus says about a Boeing airplane that hasn't even rolled out? Sounds like to me sour grapes from Airbus for getting t
83 Ulfinator : As stated before Boeing made the wings for the B2 bomber which are composite. Some other examples of composites by Boeing include the Sea Launch Paylo
84 Post contains links and images Drewfly : 1.View Large View MediumPhoto © Brian vL 2.View Large View MediumPhoto © Richard Carvill 3.View Large View MediumPhoto © Richard Carvi
85 Sq212 : Simply put, Airbus just lack the ability to build a large composite fuselage structure at this time. Blaming safety concern and creating negative per
86 Post contains images TWAMD-80 : Airbus says a lot of things, OH YEAH! I mean seriously, I think Boeing has some good experience in the composites market. This sounds similar to "the
87 Post contains links NAV20 : I'd agree with that - there's virtually no place for 'knocking copy' in any form of serious marketing. You strongly emphasise the good points of your
88 HZ747300 : The good reason is that they cannot make it work because their composites have not been put to the test, stress, and rigors that Boeing's composite p
89 Iwok : Its sad times in Airbus hallways.. First 4-engines for long-haul was debunked, and now they are getting pounded by Boeing with the 787. Looks like Ai
90 JayinKitsap : Are any of you boaters? How many fiberglass boats are there - at least one or two. Have you noticed how often the dock, other boats, floating logs, et
91 Slovacek747 : Here goes Airbus bashing and bad mouthing Boeing again.. that's all they seem to know how to do... I am a pro boeing all the way but I love aviation a
92 Sebolino : This is what I call a smart comment (and not childish at all) !
93 Slovacek747 : Sebolino.. you rarely (and I've never heard) hear Boeing Executives criticize airbus and their products to the extent airbus does. Boeing even called
94 Moparman : SlovaceK747: I agree with you on this point. I have never heard Boeing speak in a negative way about Airbus, but on many occasions they speak about Ai
95 Slovacek747 : Sorry I didn't clarify Moparman... I agree that its the management who has issues with class, not airbus as a whole. Slovacek747
96 Post contains images Ikramerica : Didn't know that specifically, but that was my point. It's the same reason Saturn (a US division of GM) makes their doors out of composite. Things ju
97 Glareskin : In the previous thread you claimed that this was secret information and for manufacturers only. Now you take it very easy. Not a big deal, is it? Som
98 DAYflyer : An articulate and intelligent post. Welcome to my respected user list, not that it means much of anything. That plus $1.50 will get you a cup of Star
99 Areopagus : Not long after the A380 launch, AW&ST ran an article about developing bomb damage resistant shipping containers. They showed pictures of two LD-3's t
100 Dougloid : Sounds a lot like a capacitor to me.
101 OldAeroGuy : I think he was making the point that if ramp rash was a problem for carbon composites, then hail would be a problem for Glare. On the other hand, if
102 Glacote : Just a quick point. Most of us here praise Boeing for their exceptional track record in the industry. Large-scale manufacturing of full composites air
103 Ikramerica : I did not claim that it was secret that bumping into plastic was different than bumping into metal. I claimed, because it is true, that the EXACT MET
104 Planemaker : Huh????? Don't you know that for the 787 that Boeing and MHI and Vought and AVICII and Spirit and Alenia and KHI are all being supplied composites by
105 Ikramerica : Yes, but they are using new techniques and formulations. Do you have access to the industrial secrets that are kept regarding the changes and improve
106 Planemaker : Huh?? Toray sells composites to EVERYONE! And there is no secret to wrapping composites around a mandrel and curing it in an autoclave. Raytheon has
107 Glacote : Again, Airbus does not question the safety of Boeing's plane. Title is misleading and voluntarily provocative. One Airbus guy at a specialists confere
108 Joni : Boeing has naturally come up with solutions to address the ramp rash issues, and (again..) Airbus' point was that applying these solutions results in
109 Ikramerica : So, you know the "only difference" is just size? Guy, composites are a VERY BROAD TERM, and can be composed of WIDELY VARYING FORMULAS AND METHODS. T
110 Post contains links Halibut : 1st Airbus say composites are unsafe , now they agree with Boeing ! Hah ! Airbus Agrees With Boeing On Compsite A/C-? (by Halibut Jan 9 2006 in Civil
111 Post contains images Ikramerica : yep, now the only "problem" with composites is that they cost more. Oh, and airbus does claim to have more experience in them, so they should come out
112 A319XFW : IIRC from the start of the other thread, they didn't say they were unsafe (after all they have got more composites in their current line-up than Boei
113 Ikramerica : So they are just saying Boeing is unsafe then? Doesn't make their claims any more believable...
114 D5DBY : i think every 787 will crash because of the very unsafe composite material in the fuselage. furthermore i don't think boeing know anything about the c
115 GARPD : I'd punctuate that with an appropriate smiley, before someone thinks you're being serious.
116 Sebolino : You should double check before you post this kind of BS. Airbus is using composites for decades. As far as I know, they talked about about risks asso
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