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A350 Update.  
User currently offlineWINGS From Portugal, joined May 2005, 2831 posts, RR: 68
Posted (8 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 9753 times:

Browsing through the Airbus website, it has come to my attention the following facts.

It seems that Airbus is studying the possibility of opening up an A350 assembly line, alongside the current A330/A340. This would seem to indicate that Airbus will be able to increase production of the A350 while at the same time being able to deliver the A330/A340.

This might also be an indication of an eventual A330-200F to keep this line open into future.


From Airbus.com
New buildings are being planned, including a dedicated final assembly line alongside the current long-range FAL in Toulouse

It has also come to my attention for the first time that the new A350 fuselage structure will result in an increase of 3 inches to the width of the cabin.

From Airbus.com
A new fuselage structure has generated three inches more width, allowing wider seats.

http://www.airbus.com/en/aircraftfamilies/a350/programme_update.html

Regards,
Wings


Aviation Is A Passion.
82 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineA319XFW From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (8 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 9693 times:

Perhaps the diametre of the fuselage hasn't increased by 3 inches, but the internals (frames, stringers, cabin walls etc) allow there to be 3 inches more in the cabin.

EDIT: Just like Boeing found out with the 787. (but of course that is a composite fuselage so a bit different to a metallic one)

Perhaps the A350 could move into the A300 line. But a) that has got to shut down first and b) The hangar the A300 is built in is quite small....

[Edited 2006-01-06 20:07:47]

User currently offlinePlaneDane From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (8 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 9648 times:

Quoting WINGS (Thread starter):
It has also come to my attention for the first time that the new A350 fuselage structure will result in an increase of 3 inches to the width of the cabin.

From Airbus.com
A new fuselage structure has generated three inches more width, allowing wider seats.

I don't believe this is a new development, WINGS. We've known about the additional interior cabin width for months now. It is a nice improvement, though.


User currently offlineWINGS From Portugal, joined May 2005, 2831 posts, RR: 68
Reply 3, posted (8 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 9587 times:

Quoting PlaneDane (Reply 2):

I don't believe this is a new development, WINGS. We've known about the additional interior cabin width for months now. It is a nice improvement, though.

Hi PlaneDane,

I was aware of an increase in cabin width for a while. I decided to post this update as no real number was presented before. This has now been confirmed by Airbus as an increase of 3 inches.

Has this number been mentioned on the forum before?

Quoting A319XFW (Reply 1):

Perhaps the A350 could move into the A300 line. But a) that has got to shut down first and b) The hangar the A300 is built in is quite small....

I believe that Airbus will try to keep this line open to the max. I would not be too surprised to see this line be dedicated to an eventual A300/A310 replacement.

Regards,
Wings



Aviation Is A Passion.
User currently offlineKaitak744 From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 2360 posts, RR: 3
Reply 4, posted (8 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 9582 times:

Quoting A319XFW (Reply 1):
Perhaps the A350 could move into the A300 line. But a) that has got to shut down first and b) The hangar the A300 is built in is quite small....

After the A300 line is shut down, the building will probably be demolished. The hanger is only wide enough to take one A300 in a diagonal position. So, even the wingspan of a full A300 can't fit in that building. Airbus might expand their A320 line there.


User currently offlineBoomBoom From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (8 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 9574 times:

Quoting WINGS (Thread starter):
A new fuselage structure has generated three inches more width, allowing wider seats

That would be less than 1 cm per seat in coach.


User currently offlineA319XFW From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (8 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 9563 times:

Quoting Kaitak744 (Reply 4):
Airbus might expand their A320 line there.

Well first the A320 line will be expanded towards China first....
But they could put the new A320 line in there as not to disrupt the old one. But of course it would be better to build the new A320 when it comes in Hamburg Big grin


User currently offlineWINGS From Portugal, joined May 2005, 2831 posts, RR: 68
Reply 7, posted (8 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 9509 times:

Quoting BoomBoom (Reply 5):
That would be less than 1 cm per seat in coach.

Even though its a small increase its better than nothing. These changes will also allow the A350 cabin to have a wider feeling in relation to the A330/A340. Now that BMW has jumped on board with the A350 cabin interior, its going to be interesting to see what they can pull off.

http://www.thestate.com/mld/thestate/business/13564937.htm

Regards,
Wings



Aviation Is A Passion.
User currently offlineBoomBoom From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (8 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 9449 times:

Quoting WINGS (Reply 7):
These changes will also allow the A350 cabin to have a wider feeling in relation to the A330/A340.

Do you think people will be able to notice 3 inches? Doubtful.


User currently offlineJean Leloup From Canada, joined Apr 2001, 2116 posts, RR: 19
Reply 9, posted (8 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 9414 times:

Quoting BoomBoom (Reply 8):
Do you think people will be able to notice 3 inches? Doubtful.

Yes, I think they might. Might not be able to put their finger on the difference, but a slightly roomier feel may be discernable. An extra centimetre or so is not insignificant in avoiding the elbow of the person next to you, etc.

It certainly won't hurt, anyway.

JL



Next flight.... who knows.
User currently offlineBoomBoom From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (8 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 9375 times:

Quoting Jean Leloup (Reply 9):
An extra centimetre or so is not insignificant in avoiding the elbow of the person next to you, etc.

That would be an extra 0.47625 cm on either side of you.


User currently offlineLTU932 From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 13864 posts, RR: 50
Reply 11, posted (8 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 9306 times:

Quoting A319XFW (Reply 6):
But they could put the new A320 line in there as not to disrupt the old one. But of course it would be better to build the new A320 when it comes in Hamburg

How about putting the entire A350 line in Hamburg? Would be nice to see widebodies being final assembled in my home town. Big grin


User currently offlineClickhappy From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 9602 posts, RR: 69
Reply 12, posted (8 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 9294 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
PHOTO SCREENER

Kudos to Airbus for making it wider. Any amount helps for pax comfort.

If they had made it 3" smaller people wouldn't be saying "yeah but thats only blah blah blah per seat"


User currently offlineA319XFW From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (8 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 9241 times:

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 11):
How about putting the entire A350 line in Hamburg? Would be nice to see widebodies being final assembled in my home town.

We know that's not going to happen...  Sad (Partly because there's no more room)
Hamburg already lost a battle for the A380 and the one for a possible A320 replacement will probably be tough too.


User currently offlineJDD1 From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2005, 94 posts, RR: 2
Reply 14, posted (8 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 9093 times:

Quoting Kaitak744
After the A300 line is shut down, the building will probably be demolished. The hanger is only wide enough to take one A300 in a diagonal position. So, even the wingspan of a full A300 can't fit in that building. Airbus might expand their A320 line there.


Kaitak I don't know what final assy line you are talking about but it is definitely not the A300 line. Although the last two A300s on the line sit diagonally it is not for wing span reasons. The first two are in a straight line and there is at least eight metres to spare. The hangar only dates from about 1970 and as it is next to the A320 it would be more likely that more A320 jigs would be installed, if the A300 ever stops!!!!


User currently offlineOyKIE From Norway, joined Jan 2006, 2685 posts, RR: 4
Reply 15, posted (8 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 8860 times:

Hi everyone!

This is my first go on Airliners.net.

As for the A350 I am very eager to see how it turns out.

I don't remember exactly when I first heard about the wider cabin, but I do remember that there was some confusion here on this forum when Leahy announced that the A350 was wider and some speculated that it was a hole new fuselage.

As of Paris Airshow 2005 the A350 featured:

- A new composite center wing box, outer wing box an wing skins

- Flight deck improvements

- Passive and active load alleviation

- Slightly larger windows, though 64% smaller than the 787

- Re-designed interior gaining a 3 inch wider interior

- Flight crew rest under the cockpit

- New APU and horizontal stabilizer

- Genx Engines with bleed air

I do not have a source for when Airbus promised similar pressure on the A350 as on the 787. But I am not sure if that pressure can be kept during the hole flight or just when climbing to 35000 feet.

Around the time Finnair ordered the A350 in December it was clear that the cruise speed of the A350 had been increased to 0.84 Mach similar to the B777, but 0.01 Mach less than the 787.



Dream no small dream; it lacks magic. Dream large, then go make that dream real - Donald Douglas
User currently offlineFlyDreamliner From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 2759 posts, RR: 15
Reply 16, posted (8 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 8835 times:

What is 3" of cabin width in a plane almost 20ft wide? Give or take 3" doesn't make a difference. 3" per seat, now that would be something.


"Let the world change you, and you can change the world"
User currently offlineOyKIE From Norway, joined Jan 2006, 2685 posts, RR: 4
Reply 17, posted (8 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 8794 times:

Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 16):
3" per seat, now that would be something.

I do agree on that one  Smile



Dream no small dream; it lacks magic. Dream large, then go make that dream real - Donald Douglas
User currently offlineSmokeyrosco From Ireland, joined Dec 2005, 2112 posts, RR: 13
Reply 18, posted (8 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 8714 times:

I think i'd notice an inch and a half in the isle


John Hancock
User currently offlineYOWza From Canada, joined Jul 2005, 4860 posts, RR: 15
Reply 19, posted (8 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 8606 times:

Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 16):
3" doesn't make a difference

That's what my girlfriend keeps telling me, but I'm not sure what she means  Wink

On the airbus website the 359 range is demonstrated with Dubai as the point of origin, interesting no?

YOWza



12A whenever possible.
User currently offlineBoomBoom From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (8 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 8474 times:

Quoting Clickhappy (Reply 12):
If they had made it 3" smaller people wouldn't be saying "yeah but thats only blah blah blah per seat"

No, they'd be saying, "three inches, who will notice?"


User currently offlineCloudyapple From Hong Kong, joined Jul 2005, 2454 posts, RR: 9
Reply 21, posted (8 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 8455 times:

Quoting Kaitak744 (Reply 4):
After the A300 line is shut down

The A300 will NEVER die!!! It just goes on and on and on. (Probably running on Duracell~)



A310/A319/20/21/A332/3/A343/6/A388/B732/5/7/8/B742/S/4/B752/B763/B772/3/W/E145/J41/MD11/83/90
User currently offlineCloudyapple From Hong Kong, joined Jul 2005, 2454 posts, RR: 9
Reply 22, posted (8 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 8434 times:

Quoting BoomBoom (Reply 20):
No, they'd be saying, "three inches, who will notice?"

Compared to the cabin width difference between A320 and B737 (5.8in - 1in/seat) and that was very very noticeable. 0.5in seat on the A350 might just be noticeable though not as noticeable as the A320/B737 if you see what i mean... What's B787's cabin width again?



A310/A319/20/21/A332/3/A343/6/A388/B732/5/7/8/B742/S/4/B752/B763/B772/3/W/E145/J41/MD11/83/90
User currently offlineCloudyapple From Hong Kong, joined Jul 2005, 2454 posts, RR: 9
Reply 23, posted (8 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 8421 times:

B787 Cabin width is 226in and A350 is 222in so again 0.5in/seat. Highly subjective.


A310/A319/20/21/A332/3/A343/6/A388/B732/5/7/8/B742/S/4/B752/B763/B772/3/W/E145/J41/MD11/83/90
User currently offlineStuckInCA From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 1943 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (8 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 8401 times:

Quoting BoomBoom (Reply 5):
That would be less than 1 cm per seat in coach.

Ever put on a pair of pants that's 1 inch too small in the waist? 1 cm would be noticeable in seat width in my opinion. If I were on a 12 hour flight, I'd fight for that cm.


25 BoomBoom : Well that difference is nearly twice as much. Still I never noticed the A320 was wider until it became a topic of discussion on a.net. What I did not
26 Gigneil : No, it isn't. The 787's outer diameter is 226 inches, and the A350's is 222. That's 4 inches. The cabin on the inside is wider due to different struc
27 BoomBoom : Well then don't fly on NW. They use the same seat 17.5 on the A320 as they do on the 757. Maybe that's why I never noticed the A320 is wider. If my p
28 BoomBoom : THEN NO ONE WILL NOTICE!
29 Atmx2000 : Those are the fuselage widths. The widest cabin width in an A330/A340 is 208" (close to floor level). But in Airbus's standard seat layouts, only 204
30 Trent900 : I think this is more important then 1cm wider seats. Look at the 737 and A32x for example. The isle width is much more noticable, and that cant be mu
31 Toulouse : Some probably will, most probably won't. Amazing, as this is a comment I've heard for years since the 320 started flying, and a comment I've overhear
32 OyKIE : The 787 is a double-bubble design. That is why they are able to provide a less curved sidewalls. I believe this will be hard for Airbus on the A350 d
33 Atmx2000 : Airbus will never get flat side walls out of the circular fuselage. All they can hope for less separation between the cabin wall and fuselage. They c
34 A319XFW : The 787 wasn't the first aircraft to have a double-bubble design. The A320 has got it and I'm sure other aircraft too. Don't know about the A350 thou
35 Post contains images GARPD : He didn't say it was the first But seeing as that seems to be of importance to you. I believe the DC-8 and the 707 were the first with double bubble.
36 AcessColombia : Hillarious. On the other hand a I can picture a BMW interior 350 right now. Just a whole bunch of leather everywhere.
37 Post contains images OyKIE : Do not forget the wood panels and the I-drive system for IFE.
38 A319XFW : Yep, it was just the A320 came to mind first (as I have physically seen it too)! Some people make it sound like the 787 revolutionised aircraft dimen
39 OyKIE : Why did airlines abandon the idea of the circular fuselage. What was the benefits of that design? I believe that both A300/A330/A340/A350 and B777 ha
40 A319XFW : I suppose with a tube the forces acting on it are more equally distributed than on a double-barrel. That way you got a unifrom hoop-stress etc around
41 OyKIE : Thanks for your info. That sounds very plausible. With your reasoning a cylindrical fuselage should require less structural strengthening than a doub
42 Ikramerica : 787 is an ellipse, not a double bubble, from what I understand. There is a difference. A double bubble is the merging of 2 circles with the same or di
43 WhiteHatter : plenty of other aircraft with that profile, the first notable jet being the DC-8 which has a pronounced double-bubble profile. Later aircraft didn't
44 Post contains links BoomBoom : http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/busine...l?searchpagefrom=1&searchdiff=1039
45 OyKIE : While I do believe you are correct on this issue, my source of information on the double bubble design is from the book "Boeing 787 Dreamliner -flyin
46 FlyDreamliner : I'm not sure if there is any engineering basis to this, but round fuselage aircraft seem to have larger cargo capacity than 'double-bubble' fuselage a
47 BoomBoom : So that means the 787 cabin is 13.5 inches 34 cm) wider at arm rest level than the A330/340. That's significant and WILL BE noticible.
48 Oryx : The advantage of other shapes than circular is better use of provided room for palettized or boxed cargo as well as passengers. The disadvantage is mo
49 Post contains images Gigneil : The 707 was double-bubble as well. N
50 Clickhappy : what would suck is if the extra width would allow airlines to try and squeeze and extra seat per row...
51 FlyDreamliner : Boeing has always prided itself on its light and efficient structures. The 73G is lighter than 319/320/321, and boeing can't stop talking about it. I'
52 Areopagus : A soap film has no resistance at all to bending stress, which is why a soap bubble assumes the shape of a sphere. However, you have probably seen doub
53 OyKIE : WOW. That was a very simple but informative way of telling it. Thank you!
54 AvObserver : Not to be unduly critical but I hope Airbus abandons its unwarranted raising of safety concerns regarding composites used on the Boeing 787; their tou
55 FlyDreamliner : For a long time, I think Airbus's marketting divison was supremely brilliant, but lately i think they're off their game. While both Boeing and Airbus
56 Francoflier : I really doubt 3 inches will make any real comfort difference for the pax, but all that fuss is just PR. Airbus has gotten really good with it lately,
57 GARPD : And they would be quite right. The 787 represents a whole new way of building large scale comercial airliners. And I bet you, if proven viable and ef
58 OyKIE : I believe that if Airbus did not have their hands tied up in the A380 and A400M they would adapt a whole new concept. Though I am sure they will do O
59 Joni : I have the impression that the engineering work on the A380 is already well past it's peak and there are ample resources available at Airbus for futu
60 Dougloid : Curtiss Wright CW20 that later became the C46 Commando.
61 WINGS : One would hope so. Any increase is always welcome from a passengers point of view. Exactly. At least they are trying. Welcome to Airliners.net OyKIE,
62 Post contains images OyKIE : Thank you, WINGS. So far I have. I have been sitting in front of the computer almost all weekend. Posting more than 80 posts so far. But being tired
63 BoomBoom : I would be more concerned with how Airbus has achieved it's additonal three inches. Did they do it by stripping out insulation? What will that do to
64 BestWestern : Even going as far as making airbus statements up.
65 Post contains links and images WINGS : Just in case anyone is interested I came across these new images of the A350 wearing the Taps and Bangkok Air color scheme. We now can get a clear loo
66 EddieGunsmoke : They changed the cockpit windows again?
67 Ikramerica : looks iike an A330 to me (which I like, BTW). But the MD11/DC10 had more discernable differences than the A330/350.
68 KL808 : Those pics look great. It seems to look like a 777 With winglets for the wings and engine, a A306 front section and a A332 size fuselage. Drew
69 787engineer : With a double bubble design the hoop stresses will obviously be uneven around the aircraft and will require additional strengthening here and there.
70 Kangar : It will be very interesting to see how the A350 performs without the encumbrance of having to factor 4 engine options into the wing design as they had
71 BoomBoom : It's my understanding that even with eight across seating the 787 will be more efficient than the A350 because of its lighter composite fuselage. Tha
72 Post contains images Keesje : Some more updates on the “November 2005” specification, before the design freeze, "Milestone 5" the definition freeze in due end March 06. A pictu
73 A319XFW : So if the centre spar is removed, do you know how is the centre tank separated from the wing tanks along the Y-Axis?
74 Toulouse : A question for you BoomBoom, why do you argue your opinions so much? You make it seem you believe that only your opinions are valid and that your opi
75 BoomBoom : You call this an insult? What's insulting about that statement? Is it simply because you disagree? You're entitled to your opinion, as I am to mine.
76 Stitch : The A350 is much better proportioned then the A330 (especially in the engine department) to my eye.
77 Kangar : It's Boeing's understanding as well, but until the aircraft flies, we just won't know, will we? Either way Boeing may have made it heavier than it ne
78 NorCal : I don't think it matters as long as it ends up being lighter than the A350, it is like having the best of both worlds. Lighter and wider/more comfort
79 BoomBoom : And Airbus has made claims for the A350 that we can't accept until it flies. It's more like 14 inches at elbow level. It gives the airlines enormous
80 Toulouse : Very true BoomBoom, "insult" was an incorrect choice of word... I was tired when I posted that. I should have said "criticise". And as I said you are
81 Kangar : And until airline execs start flying economy everywhere, they won't care. - Absolutely correct.
82 BoomBoom : Quite a few of them do care--just look at the 787s order book. It's not just wider seats, wider aisles make for quicker turnaround times. If Boeing g
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