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SAS And KLM In Near Collision  
User currently offlineCPH757 From Denmark, joined Sep 2005, 684 posts, RR: 2
Posted (8 years 3 months 1 week 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 13272 times:

Couldn't find another thread on this topic, but if it exist im sorry.

The Danish newspaper Politiken reports a near Collision between a SK IAD-bound flight and a KL AMS-bound flight over Kristiansand in Norway yesterday.

The SK (A330?) had 255+13 people on board, the KL had 80. They were 40 seconds from colliding, when the TCAS system made the SK plane to climb and the KL plane to descent. The Norwegian ATC didn't see the thread, hence no warning.

The article is here, it's only in Danish so far.

http://politiken.dk/VisArtikel.iasp?PageID=428883

The Bodensee midair collision certainly comes to mind. I'm glad that nothing happened this time.


Last flight: SAW-CPH on H9 on 02/11/09 - Next Flights: 23/12/09 CPH-AAL on QI, 30/12/09 CPH-LHR on SK, 19/01/10 CPH-CDG-
43 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinePtrjong From Netherlands, joined Mar 2005, 3884 posts, RR: 19
Reply 1, posted (8 years 3 months 1 week 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 13240 times:

Dutch NOS Journaal reports the SAS aircraft was indeed an A330. It was coming from Copenhagen, the KLM Fokker from Trondheim. The 40 seconds translates as 8 km. The Norwegian aviation authorities have started an investigation.

[Edited 2006-01-08 12:49:19]


The only difference between me and a madman is that I am not mad (Salvador Dali)
User currently offlineCPH757 From Denmark, joined Sep 2005, 684 posts, RR: 2
Reply 2, posted (8 years 3 months 1 week 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 13216 times:

A more thorough article is in the Norwegian VG paper. Still not in English, but it also states that it was an A330 and a F70.

They were both at FL340 with an approx 90 degree angle on one another.

http://www.vg.no/pub/vgart.hbs?artid=112533



Last flight: SAW-CPH on H9 on 02/11/09 - Next Flights: 23/12/09 CPH-AAL on QI, 30/12/09 CPH-LHR on SK, 19/01/10 CPH-CDG-
User currently offlineAndz From South Africa, joined Feb 2004, 8414 posts, RR: 11
Reply 3, posted (8 years 3 months 1 week 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 13173 times:
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Thank you for not saying near-miss.


After Monday and Tuesday even the calendar says WTF...
User currently offlineFJWH From Netherlands, joined May 2004, 968 posts, RR: 4
Reply 4, posted (8 years 3 months 1 week 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 13163 times:

I was looking for a Dutch newsource, didn't find it, YET. Anyone??


FlightS in the next 3 months: MSP, PHX, MEM, NCE, TFS, BCN. All round trips from AMS
User currently offlineHS748 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (8 years 3 months 1 week 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 13097 times:

Quoting Andz (Reply 3):
Thank you for not saying near-miss.

Though near collission is almost as bad. They were 40 seconds and 8km apart, TCAS did its job, it's not such a big story.


User currently offline777DadandJr From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 1516 posts, RR: 12
Reply 6, posted (8 years 3 months 1 week 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 13061 times:

Quoting HS748 (Reply 5):
TCAS did its job, it's not such a big story.

This is true, but I think the bigger story would be, why were these two a/c allowed to get even this close, at the same altitude, in the first place?

That would be the focus of my inquiry.

Russ



My glass is neither 1/2 empty nor 1/2 full, rather, the glass itself is twice as big as it should be.
User currently offlineA1rl1ner1965 From Netherlands, joined May 2005, 11 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (8 years 3 months 1 week 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 13056 times:

Quoting FJWH (Reply 4):
I was looking for a Dutch newsource

http://www.nos.nl/nos/artikelen/2006/01/art0000800604B0.html


User currently offlineOyKIE From Norway, joined Jan 2006, 2673 posts, RR: 4
Reply 8, posted (8 years 3 months 1 week 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 13041 times:

Quoting HS748 (Reply 5):
Though near collision is almost as bad. They were 40 seconds and 8km apart, TCAS did its job, it's not such a big story.

The reason why I do believe this has been put on frontpages in Norwegian newspapers is the dispute about the controllers in Norway. They have been so disappointed with management that they have not showed up for work because of stress, and thereby causing allot of delays and cancellations.



Dream no small dream; it lacks magic. Dream large, then go make that dream real - Donald Douglas
User currently offlineSK909 From Denmark, joined Nov 2005, 261 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (8 years 3 months 1 week 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 12938 times:

Quoting OyKIE (Reply 8):
They have been so disappointed with management that they have not showed up for work because of stress, and thereby causing allot of delays and cancellations.

That may be, but it still dosn't explain the near collision. I mean, even if I very unhappy with management I would smash one of my customers computers.... Or maybe I would? In order to get focus on the issue? But than there would other more safe ways to do that.

Anyways... I am very happy that nothing happened...



Life's for Living!
User currently offlineKappel From Suriname, joined Jul 2005, 3533 posts, RR: 17
Reply 10, posted (8 years 3 months 1 week 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 12881 times:

Quoting FJWH (Reply 4):
I was looking for a Dutch newsource, didn't find it, YET. Anyone??

also on www.luchtvaartnieuws.nl



L1011,733,734,73G,738,743,744,752,763,772,77W,DC855,DC863,DC930,DC950,MD11,MD88,306,319,320,321,343,346,ARJ85,CR7,E195
User currently offlineEHHO From Bulgaria, joined Dec 2005, 815 posts, RR: 8
Reply 11, posted (8 years 3 months 1 week 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 12856 times:

The only article in English that I could find (The Scotsman, via Google News):

http://news.scotsman.com/latest.cfm?id=33582006



"Get your facts first. Then you may distort them as much as you please" -- Mark Twain
User currently offlineOyKIE From Norway, joined Jan 2006, 2673 posts, RR: 4
Reply 12, posted (8 years 3 months 1 week 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 12849 times:

Quoting HS748 (Reply 5):
It's not such a big story.



Quoting SK909 (Reply 9):
That may be, but it still doesn't explain the near collision.

I was just trying to explain to HS748 why I believe it got so much attention in the media. I could be wrong though.



Dream no small dream; it lacks magic. Dream large, then go make that dream real - Donald Douglas
User currently offlineHS748 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (8 years 3 months 1 week 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 12831 times:

Quoting OyKIE (Reply 12):
I was just trying to explain to HS748 why I believe it got so much attention in the media.

And you did, so thanks for that.


User currently offlineMatt27 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (8 years 3 months 1 week 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 12740 times:

Quoting OyKIE (Reply 8):
The reason why I do believe this has been put on frontpages in Norwegian newspapers is the dispute about the controllers in Norway. They have been so disappointed with management that they have not showed up for work because of stress, and thereby causing allot of delays and cancellations.

Are there still problems with Norwegian ATC? I haven't heard anything about that for some time.


User currently offlineScalebuilder From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (8 years 3 months 1 week 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 12613 times:

Quoting Matt27 (Reply 14):
Are there still problems with Norwegian ATC? I haven't heard anything about that for some time.

From what I understand the dispute has been somewhat ongoing, and also long standing. Recent turnover in upper management is believed to have improved the situation.

Traffic control in Norway has been criticized for being understaffed. This has resulted in frustrating and costly delays for both airlines and passengers.

Just don't understand what they can't beef up their staff. The need is clearly present.


User currently offlineOyKIE From Norway, joined Jan 2006, 2673 posts, RR: 4
Reply 16, posted (8 years 3 months 1 week 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 12518 times:

Quoting Matt27 (Reply 14):
Are there still problems with Norwegian ATC? I haven't heard anything about that for some time.



Quoting Scalebuilder (Reply 15):
From what I understand the dispute has been somewhat ongoing, and also long standing. Recent turnover in upper management is believed to have improved the situation.

Traffic control in Norway has been criticized for being understaffed. This has resulted in frustrating and costly delays for both airlines and passengers.

Just don't understand what they can't beef up their staff. The need is clearly present.

Scalebuilder is right about understaffed and recent turnover in upper management. In December the climate was at max, when the Boss wa asked to step down. This resulted some issues and the ATC agreed to work longer shifts as an interim solution.

The ATC controllcenter in Røyken was supposed to be moved to Bodø controllcenter (about 840KM) in an attempt to bring costs down. This was never accepted by the employee in Røyken,



Dream no small dream; it lacks magic. Dream large, then go make that dream real - Donald Douglas
User currently offlineFJWH From Netherlands, joined May 2004, 968 posts, RR: 4
Reply 17, posted (8 years 3 months 1 week 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 12287 times:

http://www.nu.nl/news/652873/21/KLM-...l_bijna_in_botsing_met_Airbus.html


FlightS in the next 3 months: MSP, PHX, MEM, NCE, TFS, BCN. All round trips from AMS
User currently offlineMalmoaviation From Sweden, joined Nov 2005, 385 posts, RR: 4
Reply 18, posted (8 years 3 months 1 week 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 10565 times:

Thank God that nothing happened! SK has not room for any fatal accident.  duck  Hope this never happens again.

User currently offlineKerberos From Canada, joined exactly 10 years ago today! , 119 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (8 years 3 months 1 week 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 10273 times:

Quoting CPH757 (Thread starter):
They were 40 seconds from colliding, when the TCAS system made the SK plane to climb and the KL plane to descent.

How exactly does the TCAS system work? If both aircraft are flying straight and level and converging at the same FL, what prevents both aircraft being commanded to climb / turn in the same direction, thus continuing on a collision course?

Do the TCAS units in each aircraft talk to each other - "Hey I'm gonna climb and turn left - you do better do something else!"?

Or is there a set of rules - like rights of way - programmed in? ie: a/c 1: That other aircraft is coming from my right, i better climb. a/c 2: That other aircraft is coming from my left, i better descend.

Peter



This is your captain speaking. I’ve turned off the no-smokin’ sign. Hell, if the plane is smokin' why can't you?
User currently offlineOyKIE From Norway, joined Jan 2006, 2673 posts, RR: 4
Reply 20, posted (8 years 3 months 1 week 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 10203 times:

The TCAS systems of the two planes on collision course communicate. And they agree on who will dive and who will climb. The pilots have 5 seconds to respond.

When the Russian airplane and the DHL airplane collided it was because the order from the ATC was the opposite of what the TCAS said. So the Russian pilot decided he should trust the ATC. Resulting in both airplane diving.



Dream no small dream; it lacks magic. Dream large, then go make that dream real - Donald Douglas
User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21415 posts, RR: 60
Reply 21, posted (8 years 3 months 1 week 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 10081 times:

Why doesn't TCAS instead just make the smaller jet descend and bank the larger plane? Would have the same effect and could never result in a crash (unless they are both the same plane, in which case a secondary criteria could be used (based on heading?)


Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineOyKIE From Norway, joined Jan 2006, 2673 posts, RR: 4
Reply 22, posted (8 years 3 months 1 week 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 9866 times:

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 21):
Why doesn't TCAS instead just make the smaller jet descend and bank the larger plane? Would have the same effect and could never result in a crash (unless they are both the same plane, in which case a secondary criteria could be used (based on heading?)

Good suggestion. I wonder what the computers algorithm is for which aircraft will descend and which one will climb. That algorithm must be presize so that the systems don't argue or get false information. The system was activated just 45 seconds before the eventual impact.

In this case the heavy A330 from SAS climbed. Which was only 30 minutes from CPH on its way to Dulles. The light F70 from KLM descended.



Dream no small dream; it lacks magic. Dream large, then go make that dream real - Donald Douglas
User currently offlineCPH757 From Denmark, joined Sep 2005, 684 posts, RR: 2
Reply 23, posted (8 years 3 months 1 week 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 9233 times:

Do the TCAS system really interact to find out? I thought it would be more logical with a consistent rule, like everything northbound (below 90-270 degrees) climbs and everything southbound descent. So if the TCAS make a warning, the pilots always know what to do.

Like Kerberos, I hope someone can explain how the decision is made. I'm sure that it isn't design by common people like me  Smile



Last flight: SAW-CPH on H9 on 02/11/09 - Next Flights: 23/12/09 CPH-AAL on QI, 30/12/09 CPH-LHR on SK, 19/01/10 CPH-CDG-
User currently offlineRdwootty From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2005, 901 posts, RR: 2
Reply 24, posted (8 years 3 months 1 week 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 8974 times:

Just watched a programme on Sky1 were a "midair"collision over Tunbridge Wells took place and the main reason was that the pilots did not react to TCAS soon enough. I have to say it was harrowing....poeple were alive for four minitues dropping to the ground

25 Prebennorholm : Sorry CPH, but that wouldn't work. Two plane, one heading 135 and the other 225 - both southbound - could just as easily collide as anything else. Th
26 OyKIE : Do you know what decides who will climb or who will descend?
27 Prebennorholm : No, I don't know how it works. But every on board TCAS unit in the world has a unique identity code, and they are exchanged during the automatic comm
28 777WT : Speaking of this TCAS and ATC, this brings up one that happened recently. (2003 or 2004) Can't recall the airline but I do know one is a russian aircr
29 PolAir : It was a DHL 757 and Tu-154 ( I think) chartered to carry kids from poor famillies for vacation to Spain. Are you sure about this? Never heard anythi
30 Post contains links Kerberos : There was an episode of "Mayday" (on Discovery Channel here in Canada) that was about this incident. The last bit of the show talked about the father
31 Kerberos : As someone who writes software, some of which deals with devices talking across networks, I'd love to know more about how the TCAS system operates, s
32 777WT : My bad, that rings a bell. Yes that's right, it's an DHL cargo plane and the Tu-154 was the russian plane.
33 MrMcCoy : I caught that late last year. It was very interesting, and rather unsettling. I felt for the families of that disaster, and especially so for that co
34 777WT : Yes, Kerberos provided a link to the story.
35 Ushermittwoch : He actually built a shrine in his hometown and spent all his money on it (which apparently was a lot), qut his job and mourned at the mausoleum 24/7.
36 Post contains links SK909 : Well it is an algorithm. Hence it will determine certain criteria, thus determine which will climb and who will descend. These criteria are info from
37 Post contains images Haj96 : Does ANY airline have room for accidents????? Regards, haj96
38 Post contains links BA84 : This may help to explain TCAS: http://www.mitrecaasd.org/work/project_details.cfm?item_id=153
39 Navigator : No airline has any "room" for accidents. Nothing makes SAS special in that respect! Just let us hope that the unrest and accompanied stress among the
40 Post contains links OyKIE : According to http://www.boarding.no/art.asp?id=19726 (in Norwegian only) the Norwegian pilots association is claiming that the reason why the TCAS sy
41 TS-IOR : It is wiser to follow the TCAS instructions. They couldn't be contradictory. The Bodensee drama was because a confusion between the TCAS and the ATC o
42 Afay1 : It wasn't really confusion. Both planes had functioning TCAS, the lone over-worked controller told the Tu-154 to override it twice, directly causing t
43 MrMcCoy : Swiss controllers sure do catch their fair amount of hell.
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