CPH757 From Denmark, joined Sep 2005, 684 posts, RR: 2 Posted (7 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 11706 times:
Couldn't find another thread on this topic, but if it exist im sorry.
The Danish newspaper Politiken reports a near Collision between a SK IAD-bound flight and a KL AMS-bound flight over Kristiansand in Norway yesterday.
The SK (A330?) had 255+13 people on board, the KL had 80. They were 40 seconds from colliding, when the TCAS system made the SK plane to climb and the KL plane to descent. The Norwegian ATC didn't see the thread, hence no warning.
Ptrjong From Netherlands, joined Mar 2005, 3767 posts, RR: 20 Reply 1, posted (7 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 11674 times:
Dutch NOS Journaal reports the SAS aircraft was indeed an A330. It was coming from Copenhagen, the KLM Fokker from Trondheim. The 40 seconds translates as 8 km. The Norwegian aviation authorities have started an investigation.
[Edited 2006-01-08 12:49:19]
The only difference between me and a madman is that I am not mad (Salvador Dali)
777DadandJr From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 1516 posts, RR: 13 Reply 6, posted (7 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 11495 times:
Quoting HS748 (Reply 5): TCAS did its job, it's not such a big story.
This is true, but I think the bigger story would be, why were these two a/c allowed to get even this close, at the same altitude, in the first place?
That would be the focus of my inquiry.
Russ
My glass is neither 1/2 empty nor 1/2 full, rather, the glass itself is twice as big as it should be.
OyKIE From Norway, joined Jan 2006, 2575 posts, RR: 4 Reply 8, posted (7 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 11475 times:
Quoting HS748 (Reply 5): Though near collision is almost as bad. They were 40 seconds and 8km apart, TCAS did its job, it's not such a big story.
The reason why I do believe this has been put on frontpages in Norwegian newspapers is the dispute about the controllers in Norway. They have been so disappointed with management that they have not showed up for work because of stress, and thereby causing allot of delays and cancellations.
Dream no small dream; it lacks magic. Dream large, then go make that dream real - Donald Douglas
SK909 From Denmark, joined Nov 2005, 247 posts, RR: 0 Reply 9, posted (7 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 11372 times:
Quoting OyKIE (Reply 8): They have been so disappointed with management that they have not showed up for work because of stress, and thereby causing allot of delays and cancellations.
That may be, but it still dosn't explain the near collision. I mean, even if I very unhappy with management I would smash one of my customers computers.... Or maybe I would? In order to get focus on the issue? But than there would other more safe ways to do that.
Anyways... I am very happy that nothing happened...
Matt27 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 14, posted (7 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 11174 times:
Quoting OyKIE (Reply 8): The reason why I do believe this has been put on frontpages in Norwegian newspapers is the dispute about the controllers in Norway. They have been so disappointed with management that they have not showed up for work because of stress, and thereby causing allot of delays and cancellations.
Are there still problems with Norwegian ATC? I haven't heard anything about that for some time.
Scalebuilder From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 15, posted (7 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 11047 times:
Quoting Matt27 (Reply 14): Are there still problems with Norwegian ATC? I haven't heard anything about that for some time.
From what I understand the dispute has been somewhat ongoing, and also long standing. Recent turnover in upper management is believed to have improved the situation.
Traffic control in Norway has been criticized for being understaffed. This has resulted in frustrating and costly delays for both airlines and passengers.
Just don't understand what they can't beef up their staff. The need is clearly present.
OyKIE From Norway, joined Jan 2006, 2575 posts, RR: 4 Reply 16, posted (7 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 10952 times:
Quoting Matt27 (Reply 14): Are there still problems with Norwegian ATC? I haven't heard anything about that for some time.
Quoting Scalebuilder (Reply 15): From what I understand the dispute has been somewhat ongoing, and also long standing. Recent turnover in upper management is believed to have improved the situation.
Traffic control in Norway has been criticized for being understaffed. This has resulted in frustrating and costly delays for both airlines and passengers.
Just don't understand what they can't beef up their staff. The need is clearly present.
Scalebuilder is right about understaffed and recent turnover in upper management. In December the climate was at max, when the Boss wa asked to step down. This resulted some issues and the ATC agreed to work longer shifts as an interim solution.
The ATC controllcenter in Røyken was supposed to be moved to Bodø controllcenter (about 840KM) in an attempt to bring costs down. This was never accepted by the employee in Røyken,
Dream no small dream; it lacks magic. Dream large, then go make that dream real - Donald Douglas
Kerberos From Canada, joined Apr 2004, 119 posts, RR: 0 Reply 19, posted (7 years 4 months 2 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 8707 times:
Quoting CPH757 (Thread starter): They were 40 seconds from colliding, when the TCAS system made the SK plane to climb and the KL plane to descent.
How exactly does the TCAS system work? If both aircraft are flying straight and level and converging at the same FL, what prevents both aircraft being commanded to climb / turn in the same direction, thus continuing on a collision course?
Do the TCAS units in each aircraft talk to each other - "Hey I'm gonna climb and turn left - you do better do something else!"?
Or is there a set of rules - like rights of way - programmed in? ie: a/c 1: That other aircraft is coming from my right, i better climb. a/c 2: That other aircraft is coming from my left, i better descend.
Peter
This is your captain speaking. I’ve turned off the no-smokin’ sign. Hell, if the plane is smokin' why can't you?
OyKIE From Norway, joined Jan 2006, 2575 posts, RR: 4 Reply 20, posted (7 years 4 months 2 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 8637 times:
The TCAS systems of the two planes on collision course communicate. And they agree on who will dive and who will climb. The pilots have 5 seconds to respond.
When the Russian airplane and the DHL airplane collided it was because the order from the ATC was the opposite of what the TCAS said. So the Russian pilot decided he should trust the ATC. Resulting in both airplane diving.
Dream no small dream; it lacks magic. Dream large, then go make that dream real - Donald Douglas
Ikramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21029 posts, RR: 60 Reply 21, posted (7 years 4 months 2 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 8515 times:
Why doesn't TCAS instead just make the smaller jet descend and bank the larger plane? Would have the same effect and could never result in a crash (unless they are both the same plane, in which case a secondary criteria could be used (based on heading?)
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
OyKIE From Norway, joined Jan 2006, 2575 posts, RR: 4 Reply 22, posted (7 years 4 months 2 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 8300 times:
Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 21): Why doesn't TCAS instead just make the smaller jet descend and bank the larger plane? Would have the same effect and could never result in a crash (unless they are both the same plane, in which case a secondary criteria could be used (based on heading?)
Good suggestion. I wonder what the computers algorithm is for which aircraft will descend and which one will climb. That algorithm must be presize so that the systems don't argue or get false information. The system was activated just 45 seconds before the eventual impact.
In this case the heavy A330 from SAS climbed. Which was only 30 minutes from CPH on its way to Dulles. The light F70 from KLM descended.
Dream no small dream; it lacks magic. Dream large, then go make that dream real - Donald Douglas
CPH757 From Denmark, joined Sep 2005, 684 posts, RR: 2 Reply 23, posted (7 years 4 months 2 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 7667 times:
Do the TCAS system really interact to find out? I thought it would be more logical with a consistent rule, like everything northbound (below 90-270 degrees) climbs and everything southbound descent. So if the TCAS make a warning, the pilots always know what to do.
Like Kerberos, I hope someone can explain how the decision is made. I'm sure that it isn't design by common people like me
Last flight: SAW-CPH on H9 on 02/11/09 - Next Flights: 23/12/09 CPH-AAL on QI, 30/12/09 CPH-LHR on SK, 19/01/10 CPH-CDG-
Rdwootty From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2005, 900 posts, RR: 2 Reply 24, posted (7 years 4 months 2 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 7408 times:
Just watched a programme on Sky1 were a "midair"collision over Tunbridge Wells took place and the main reason was that the pilots did not react to TCAS soon enough. I have to say it was harrowing....poeple were alive for four minitues dropping to the ground
25 Prebennorholm: Sorry CPH, but that wouldn't work. Two plane, one heading 135 and the other 225 - both southbound - could just as easily collide as anything else. Th
26 OyKIE: Do you know what decides who will climb or who will descend?
27 Prebennorholm: No, I don't know how it works. But every on board TCAS unit in the world has a unique identity code, and they are exchanged during the automatic comm
28 777WT: Speaking of this TCAS and ATC, this brings up one that happened recently. (2003 or 2004) Can't recall the airline but I do know one is a russian aircr
29 PolAir: It was a DHL 757 and Tu-154 ( I think) chartered to carry kids from poor famillies for vacation to Spain. Are you sure about this? Never heard anythi
30 Kerberos: There was an episode of "Mayday" (on Discovery Channel here in Canada) that was about this incident. The last bit of the show talked about the father
31 Kerberos: As someone who writes software, some of which deals with devices talking across networks, I'd love to know more about how the TCAS system operates, s
32 777WT: My bad, that rings a bell. Yes that's right, it's an DHL cargo plane and the Tu-154 was the russian plane.
33 MrMcCoy: I caught that late last year. It was very interesting, and rather unsettling. I felt for the families of that disaster, and especially so for that co
34 777WT: Yes, Kerberos provided a link to the story.
35 Ushermittwoch: He actually built a shrine in his hometown and spent all his money on it (which apparently was a lot), qut his job and mourned at the mausoleum 24/7.
36 SK909: Well it is an algorithm. Hence it will determine certain criteria, thus determine which will climb and who will descend. These criteria are info from
37 Haj96: Does ANY airline have room for accidents????? Regards, haj96
38 BA84: This may help to explain TCAS: http://www.mitrecaasd.org/work/project_details.cfm?item_id=153
39 Navigator: No airline has any "room" for accidents. Nothing makes SAS special in that respect! Just let us hope that the unrest and accompanied stress among the
40 OyKIE: According to http://www.boarding.no/art.asp?id=19726 (in Norwegian only) the Norwegian pilots association is claiming that the reason why the TCAS sy
41 TS-IOR: It is wiser to follow the TCAS instructions. They couldn't be contradictory. The Bodensee drama was because a confusion between the TCAS and the ATC o
42 Afay1: It wasn't really confusion. Both planes had functioning TCAS, the lone over-worked controller told the Tu-154 to override it twice, directly causing t
43 MrMcCoy: Swiss controllers sure do catch their fair amount of hell.
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