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AI, Boeing To Ink Deal Tomorrow - 11th January  
User currently offlineCricket From India, joined Aug 2005, 2966 posts, RR: 7
Posted (8 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 5099 times:

One last thread on the endless Air India and Boeing saga.
In 1997 Air India started its search for a Medium Capacity Long Range (MCLR)Aircraft. Much was heard, said and done, governments came and went, and an entire generation of planes changed, but nothing much happened.
Eight months ago, it tenatively announced that Boeing had won the order.
A couple of weeks ago the government confirmed the order for
18 737-800
07 777-200LR
15 777-300ER
27 787-8
Tomorrow, the 11th of January at 1500, Air India's CMD V Thulasidas and Boeing CEO Alan Mullaly will sign the formal agreement at the Air India Boardroom, 23rd Floor, Air India Building, Nariman Point, Mumbai.
I will be in Delhi unfortunately, but I'm sure some TV channels will have live broadcasts of the event.
Now, a question to all Boeing watchers - this would be counted as 2006 orders right?


A300B2/B4/6R, A313, A319/320/321, A333, A343, A388, 737-2/3/4/7/8/9, 747-3/4, 772/2E/2L/3, E170/190, F70, CR2/7, 146-3,
64 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineManni From South Korea, joined Nov 2001, 4221 posts, RR: 23
Reply 1, posted (8 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 5067 times:

Airplanes have been included in the 2005 totals of 1002 net orders IIRC. If looks like they shouldnt, if they haven't been signed for yet, making the 2005 totals 934.


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User currently offlineScbriml From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2003, 12380 posts, RR: 47
Reply 2, posted (8 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 5058 times:
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Quoting Cricket (Thread starter):
Now, a question to all Boeing watchers - this would be counted as 2006 orders right?

That's very interesting, and confirms what was reported in the week's Flight International.

One would assume that this would become a 2006 firm order, but Boeing already seems to have counted this deal in it's 2005 orders.
http://active.boeing.com/commercial/orders/index.cfm

 scratchchin  confused 



Time flies like an arrow, but fruit flies like a banana!
User currently offlineHimmat01 From India, joined Dec 2004, 1047 posts, RR: 6
Reply 3, posted (8 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 5043 times:

Quoting Scbriml (Reply 2):
One would assume that this would become a 2006 firm order, but Boeing already seems to have counted this deal in it's 2005 orders.
http://active.boeing.com/commercial/...x.cfm

Maybe Boeing considered it a done deal when the union cabinet had cleared the deal.



An airplane might disappoint any pilot but it'll never surprise a good one.
User currently offlineShenzhen From United States of America, joined Jun 2003, 1710 posts, RR: 2
Reply 4, posted (8 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 5036 times:

I guess it would depend if the signing on the 11th is for show, and the actual contract was already signed and money deposited in 2005.

I doubt either Boeing or Airbus would include any order from India on the books until it was actually an order, otherwise it could be another 10 years or never before it is actually inked.

My experience tells me that the contract was signed long ago, with a provision for government approval. The government has approved, therefore it is now binding.

However, because of the Government approval process, the airline itself wasn't able to hold their press conference and have their day in the lime light, which will happen at a ceremonial signing on the 11th.

Now, go ahead spin Doctors, the floor is all yours..

Cheers


User currently offlineCricket From India, joined Aug 2005, 2966 posts, RR: 7
Reply 5, posted (8 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 5024 times:

Hmmm, interesting, even though the order was cleared, because the 'official' deal wasn't signed it shouldn't be counted as a 2005 order, even though I guess Boeing made all the production allocations already.
I don't know if anyone will ask this tomorrow, but I would be really interested in knowing what sort of delivery dates AI has on the 787.



A300B2/B4/6R, A313, A319/320/321, A333, A343, A388, 737-2/3/4/7/8/9, 747-3/4, 772/2E/2L/3, E170/190, F70, CR2/7, 146-3,
User currently offlineN1786b From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 559 posts, RR: 17
Reply 6, posted (8 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 5024 times:

http://www.flightinternational.com/A...a+boosts+size+of+Boeing+order.html

FI last week had this:

"Boeing revealed the increase in the size of the deal yesterday when it detailed all of the more than 1,000 firm aircraft orders it booked in 2005. The manufacturer shows on its website that in the final days of the year Air India signed for 23 777s, 27 787s and 18 737-800s. A public signing ceremony is scheduled for next week in Mumbai, although the deal is already considered binding."


A public signing ceremony - the deal is done and the documentation has been finished. They have a binding contract thus they counted the orders in 2005 when the deal was closed.

And Airbus has a "Term Sheet" From FI this week:

http://www.flightinternational.com/A...rs+close+in+on+aircraft+deals.html

"Indian Airlines, meanwhile, says it expects to sign a firm purchase agreement with Airbus after signing a “Term Sheet” with the manufacturer late in December. The carrier has been planning an order for 43 A320-family aircraft for years, but this has been repeatedly delayed, forcing it to lease more aircraft for expansion. The Term Sheet covers the planned purchase of 19 A319s, four A320s and 20 A321s, all powered by CFM International CFM56 engines, for delivery from October 2006."


So I expect both to count these orders in 2005 - unless Airbus wants to get a head start in 2006 and book them in Jan 06. Methinks if the 43 will pull them ahead of Boeing for 2005, you can bet your bottom dollar they will count them in 05.

Maybe that is what they are waiting for  duck 

- N1786B


User currently offlineHimmat01 From India, joined Dec 2004, 1047 posts, RR: 6
Reply 7, posted (8 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 4994 times:

While going through the Boeing orders for 2005, I have observed that AI has the second highest number of orders for the Boeing 787. Overall, AI is number 3 in total orders made in 2004.


An airplane might disappoint any pilot but it'll never surprise a good one.
User currently offlineNimish From India, joined Feb 2005, 3212 posts, RR: 9
Reply 8, posted (8 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 4975 times:

I'm sure AI and Boeing can't wait for tomorrow to finish! Congratulations (in advance) to both players.

Now we need to wait for AI route planning to tell us how they plan to utilize these aircraft. I guess a lot of the new 787s will be used to phase out the 310s, while the 773 will replace traditional 747 routes (and aircraft) and 772s will be all new routes - providing the long-thin coverage for India-US non-stop market.

I do hope that AI get rid of their older a/c when the new ones start rolling in.



Latest Trip Report - GoAir BLR-BOM-BLR
User currently offlineHimmat01 From India, joined Dec 2004, 1047 posts, RR: 6
Reply 9, posted (8 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 4932 times:

I see the AI's own A310s being taken out of service within 2 years. They were inducted into the fleet between 1986-1989. As for the B747-400s, AI would continue with them at least for 5-6 years. They were inducted between 1993 and 1996. They are relatively quiet young by AI standards.

By the year 2012 when all the newly ordered aircrafts are in the fleet, AI fleet would be as follows:

6 B747-400s
7 B777-200LRs
15 B777-300ERs
27 B787-8s

AI Express would have:

18 B737-800s

AI fleet size would grow to 55. By then the B747-400s would have to be retired.The fleet sans the B747-400s would be 49. This is just 10 more the current AI fleet. A growth of 10 aircraft in 8 years is hardly a growth AI should be looking for. More aircraft will have to be ordered if it wants to compete with the likes of SQ, MH, EK or QR. Even if the 18 AIX a/c are included the fleet size would be just 67 which is less than the current fleet size of these airlines.

The so called expansion is merely a fleet replacement. AI needs to grow at a much quicker rate. It should be looking for a fleet size of around 80 by the year 2012.

It should seriously consider the B747-800 to take over one stop flights to the USA. B777-200LRs can be utilized for the longer nonstop routes. B777-300s, I guess could be deployed on high density non stops to Europe, Far East, South Africa and Australia/NZ. The B787-8s could take over from A310s on the South East Asia routes and low density non stops to Europe.



An airplane might disappoint any pilot but it'll never surprise a good one.
User currently offlineJasepl From India, joined Jul 2004, 3582 posts, RR: 39
Reply 10, posted (8 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 4920 times:

Quoting Nimish (Reply 8):
Now we need to wait for AI route planning to tell us how they plan to utilize these aircraft

I'm curious too.

I'd love to know what they're going to do with the gems such as: BOM-DEL-SIN, BOM-DEL-BKK-ICN, BOM-HYD-RUH, BOM-COK-TRV-CJB-GOI-MAA-SHJ etc etc!


User currently offlineDAYflyer From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 3807 posts, RR: 3
Reply 11, posted (8 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 4875 times:

Quoting Cricket (Reply 5):
Hmmm, interesting, even though the order was cleared, because the 'official' deal wasn't signed it shouldn't be counted as a 2005 order, even though I guess Boeing made all the production allocations already.
I don't know if anyone will ask this tomorrow, but I would be really interested in knowing what sort of delivery dates AI has on the 787.

The likely signed an order contingent upon government approval.



One Nation Under God
User currently offlineBlrsea From India, joined May 2005, 1412 posts, RR: 3
Reply 12, posted (8 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 4710 times:

I believe this is the fastest procurement in AI/IC's history  Smile I am only counting from the time the AI technical board selected the aircrafts to closing the deal. Good luck to AI!!

Quoting Himmat01 (Reply 9):
he so called expansion is merely a fleet replacement. AI needs to grow at a much quicker rate. It should be looking for a fleet size of around 80 by the year 2012.

We need to take into account the leased aircrafts too. There will probably be around 10-15 additional leased aircrafts along with their own metal. So some growth, though not as much as one would like.


User currently offlineBlrsea From India, joined May 2005, 1412 posts, RR: 3
Reply 13, posted (8 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 4696 times:

And I forgot. Since AIX takes over AI's gulf routes, the new planes really represents a growth for AI as AI has more planes to expand to new routes.

User currently offlineN60659 From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 654 posts, RR: 25
Reply 14, posted (8 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 4681 times:

Quoting Cricket (Thread starter):
07 777-200LR



Quoting Himmat01 (Reply 9):
7 B777-200LRs

Shouldn't that actually be 8 772LRs?

-N60659



Nec Dextrorsum Nec Sinistrorsum
User currently offlineKaran69 From India, joined Oct 2004, 2884 posts, RR: 18
Reply 15, posted (8 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 4593 times:

A good analysis about AIs fleet by 2012 Himmat.
Apart from the minor error of 8 777-200 LRs and not 7, i would like to add my viewpoints which are as follows.

AIX which will have 18 aircraft by then will have taken over the Middle Eastern and most of the S.E. Asian routes like MAA/BLR/COK/CAL-SIN/KUL/CGK/BKK.

Leaving BOM/DEL out of the S.E.Asia flights as i assume they will be operating it on 787 which would continuoe onto AUS, along with the feeder traffic from AIX.

Keep in mind that AIs 310s can host around 185-190 pax in two classes [But as you might have seen from my pics in the trip report, their Buss class on their 310s is not even worthy of a domestic sector]
And AIs 738s will be configured in all economy 180 seats, so they would hardly loose 10 seats from their 310.

Meanwhile 10 77Ws will be replacing most of the flights of the leased aircrafts [6 744, 4 772], the remaining 5 will be used to launch new non-stops from BOM and DEL to East coast USA [NYC, Chicago]
*Ofcourse the routes flown by the 772 can also be replaced by 787 depending upon capacity.


The 27 787-800 will first of all be utilised in the following ways---

Around 7 aircraft to operate from various major cities in India to HKG/NRT/SEL/PVG/PEK.

The remaining 20 can be used to open up new thin routes to Europe and the Far East with Fifth Freedom traffic to the USA and Canada like

BOM-HKG-SFO/LAX
BLR-NRT-SFO/LAX
DEL-FRA-IAD
MAA-FRA-IAH/DFW
HYD-LHR-ORD/BOS
AMD-LHR-EWR/JFK
ATQ-BHX-YVR
BOM-BHX-ATL etc etc and maybe one or two non-stops if the 787 turns out to be the wonder it is deemed to...

8 777-200 LR will obviously open up routes like DEL-LAX, BOM-SFO, DEL-YYZ
BLR-SFO.


User currently offlineWestWing From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 2129 posts, RR: 7
Reply 16, posted (8 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 4535 times:

It seems there must have been some piece of paper that AI signed before the end of 2005, otherwise Boeing couldn't legally count the orders in the 2005 total. In fact Boeing may have provided incentives (above board) for AI to make a formal commitment before the year.

So did Mullaly & other Boeing head-honchos fly AI's flagship service from ORD to BOM ?  Silly
Or did they just use N349BA ? Spotting opportunity in BOM ?



The best time to plant a tree is 40 years ago. The second best time is today.
User currently offlinePlaneDane From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (8 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days ago) and read 4415 times:

Quoting Manni (Reply 1):
Airplanes have been included in the 2005 totals of 1002 net orders IIRC. If looks like they shouldnt, if they haven't been signed for yet, making the 2005 totals 934.

Nope, you're wrong. These aircraft were signed for in 2005. The orders count toward the total number of 1002.


User currently offlineManni From South Korea, joined Nov 2001, 4221 posts, RR: 23
Reply 18, posted (8 years 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 4281 times:

Quoting PlaneDane (Reply 17):
Nope, you're wrong. These aircraft were signed for in 2005. The orders count toward the total number of 1002.

You could be right. But the formal signing today, atleast cast doubt about this. Without the AI order, breaking the number 1000 would not have been possible. 1002 sounds a lot more glamourous than 934.



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User currently offlineDalecary From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (8 years 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 4258 times:

Quoting Manni (Reply 18):
You could be right. But the formal signing today, atleast cast doubt about this. Without the AI order, breaking the number 1000 would not have been possible. 1002 sounds a lot more glamourous than 934.

No, he is right. Boeing clearly counted the AI 737/777/787 order for 68 hulls in their 2005 orders.


User currently offlineManni From South Korea, joined Nov 2001, 4221 posts, RR: 23
Reply 20, posted (8 years 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 4221 times:

Quoting Dalecary (Reply 19):
Boeing clearly counted the AI 737/777/787 order for 68 hulls in their 2005 orders.

I know they did. But the question was, was it appropriate to do that, since the signing of the contract is today, 11 januari 2006.



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User currently offlineIndianFlyboy From India, joined Sep 2003, 294 posts, RR: 6
Reply 21, posted (8 years 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 4187 times:

Well Boeing has put up a one page advertisment in the Times of India today congratulating AI on the single largest aircraft order in Indian history.

http://epaperdaily.timesofindia.com/...Enter=true&Skin=TOI&GZ=T&AppName=1

Registration required.

Btw Check the headlines out on the first page.....


User currently offlineHimmat01 From India, joined Dec 2004, 1047 posts, RR: 6
Reply 22, posted (8 years 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 4085 times:

It's 3.30 now. Has the deal been signed? Any update.


An airplane might disappoint any pilot but it'll never surprise a good one.
User currently offlineFeroze From India, joined Dec 2004, 794 posts, RR: 3
Reply 23, posted (8 years 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 4053 times:

Quoting IndianFlyboy (Reply 21):
Well Boeing has put up a one page advertisment in the Times of India today congratulating AI on the single largest aircraft order in Indian history.

http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f102/feroze0/AIAd.jpg

Regards,

Feroze


User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21474 posts, RR: 60
Reply 24, posted (8 years 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 4026 times:

Quoting Manni (Reply 18):
You could be right. But the formal signing today, atleast cast doubt about this.

It's only a ceremony and has no legal standing. Contracts re: legal standing were signed in dec 2005.

It's like getting the "big check" when you win a lottery. That's not actually the check, it's a symbolic check. The actual check is just a normal sized check printed by some payment service.

Don't get too wrapped up in government ceremony. It has nothing to do with business accounting.



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
25 PanAm_DC10 : Manni, with respect, Dalecarey is correct. What we are seeing now is a formal signing ceremony as per; Boeing have to abide by the governing rules an
26 WestWing : I am still curious about how the Boeing execs flew to BOM. It probably was not politically correct for them to have flown a commercial airline other t
27 COEWR787 : For what it is worth, at around 9:35am EST today (11 Jan 06) CNBC reported that the signing ceremony had taken place and that Boeing shares were trad
28 Thunderbird1 : Would be a shame if AI ceased to be a 747 operator. Given the routes and pax densities, AI could use at least a dozen 747-800s IMHO.
29 Jaysit : Why would AI need the 747? The 773ER can do the job just as well. Besides, AI is no longer the only Indian player. With 9W ordering 10 773ERS, and 10
30 Jasepl : Most of the time, yes. But there must be some routes that could do with the increased capacity of an aircraft like the 744, without warranting an add
31 Post contains links OyKIE : Here is the link to Boeings press release Boeing, Air India Celebrate Order Agreement for 68 Jets; Largest Commercial Airplane Order in India's Civil
32 RobK : It may have been N339BA that left BFI for Kansai and onward destination on the 10th. R
33 WestWing : Good guess ! Thanks. And N339BA came from Chicago (Gary, IN) the previous day.
34 Ikramerica : and it clearly states it is a dec2005 order being celebrated today.
35 Thunderbird1 : Why would AI need the 747? The 773ER can do the job just as well. Uh, no. That's why Boeing is coming out with the -800 in the first place.
36 Atmx2000 : Of course, airlines from India have to wary of airlines like EK which plan on inundating the subcontinent with capacity. The larger jets will end up
37 Jaysit : I guess I should restate what I said earlier. With the 777s and 787s, AI can offer more direct flights from points other than BOM or DEL (i.e. more f
38 Cricket : If AI does get the 748 or A380 - not anytime soon because the owned 744's still have 5-6 years left in them. They will put on high-capacity, slot-res
39 Post contains links and images Himmat01 : The press release from Air India: AI order
40 Post contains links NAV20 : From this, it appears that what was being signed and celebrated this week was the quid pro quo for the aircraft order - an agreement with the Indian G
41 Aseem : the model displays the current livery. Touching that old topic again. Don't you think it is time AI consider touching up its livery without touching
42 WestWing : Inquiring minds want to know....who is the person in the red sari?
43 Aseem : Have seen her in couple of other photos related to AI. Maybe some PR pro. rgds VT-ASJ
44 Post contains images Jasepl : Ha ha! That;s what I want to know. Clearly she isn;t one of the AI air hostesses! And look at PP - oh so important with two phones!
45 Post contains images HAWK21M : Next step....Recruitment Finally the Deal is Signed. regds MEL
46 The777Man : Yes, they should change the livery! I think they should have a red tail with the taurus logo in white on it. Red stripe extending from the tail along
47 Feroze : It's actually the Centaur aka the Sagittarius logo! Regards, Feroze
48 Post contains images Nimish : And what seems like crappy old 6610s at that (I have the same phone and know how old a model it is). He really needs to get with it
49 The777Man : Hi ! Sorry about that! It's a great logo and I think they should use it more. I've seen pictures of their 707s and it was more prominent on those air
50 Aseem : the fact is that their current livery looks good only on B747. With their fleet destined to be predominently non-747, its time the give it a thought
51 Jaysit : The red saree is smashing. Is that the new inflight uniform? I saw a bevy of rather young and attractive AI FAs at EWR this past Sunday being herded b
52 Cricket : The logo dates back to the time AI acquired the L1049 Constellation - they wanted a 'constellation' logo and the Sagittarius one was chosen. I believ
53 Post contains images HAWK21M : I thought PP would own a Nokia Communicator Why the Tilt to the logo suddenly.Who decided it was lucky. regds MEL
54 Blrsea : What happened to the maharajah? Isn't it being used anymore at all?
55 Aseem : Maharaja is a mascot (unofficial), where as Centaur is their logo. rgds VT-ASJ
56 AirIndiaOne : Good observation. They justify the upper tilt as "aiming higher". Also notice they now use "flywell" on the left of their logo in all their advertisi
57 HAWK21M : It sure is being used.The Sign Boards around the city have them. regds MEL
58 Cricket : The tilt is now 30 degrees versus the earlier 5 degrees, they are changing the logo on top of AI Building in Nariman Point. 'Fly Well' is their new a
59 HAWK21M : Are they changing the Logo entirely or is it being tilted. I presume the Former as if not mistaken the Shape differs a bit too. regds MEL
60 Cricket : Totally new logo, should be in place before the monsoons.... Or so AI PR claims
61 Post contains images AirIndiaOne : Thier present logo doesnt glow / rotate since the past few yrs...it wud be a great sight now after the new logo arrives...it wud add a spark to the s
62 HAWK21M : This has got to be seen Personally.Maybe We could meet up there too. regds MEL
63 Cricket : It has been working of late, I work at Point so I've been noticing it. But its been off-on. I believe that they switch it off during the monsoons bec
64 Post contains images HAWK21M : View from Aft. regds MEL
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