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SQ SIN-EWR/LAX  
User currently offlineAtnight From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 606 posts, RR: 1
Posted (8 years 6 months 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 5530 times:

I was wondering, how is SQ doing on this routes? How are their loads? How is the service? Since these are still the world's longest routes, is it ok to fly for such a long time? I just want to know how is SQ doing on them.... I know that TG's BKK-JFK did poorly (do they still have the flight or not?), so I'm wondering if SQ is having a hard time filling up those seats... Is hard to see why would airlines want to buy any more ULR aircraft when they can't seem to fill these planes.... Maybe there really isn't much future for ULR planes, no matter how far these can go...


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41 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineZvezda From Lithuania, joined Aug 2004, 10511 posts, RR: 64
Reply 1, posted (8 years 6 months 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 5439 times:

SQ are enjoying high loads are yields on SIN-LAX/EWR -- especially EWR and especially in business class. Just because TG didn't get it right doesn't mean that SQ cannot.

User currently offlinePieinthesky From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2005, 392 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (8 years 6 months 2 days ago) and read 5387 times:

SQ would like a larger Raffles cabin on the EWR flights such is the demand on the route at times.

User currently offlinePhilSquares From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (8 years 6 months 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 5278 times:

Quoting Pieinthesky (Reply 2):
SQ would like a larger Raffles cabin on the EWR flights such is the demand on the route at times.

Actually, they'd like a F cabin! The demand for "enhanced" Raffles class has been beyond their expectations.


User currently offlineAtnight From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 606 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (8 years 6 months 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 5181 times:

Oh wow, I am so glad to know that they are doing very well on these flights, has any one of you been on one? Is the cabin layout very comfortable? From what I've read here, it seems that folks are enjoying SQ's A345s and their quietness (so that you can sleep without having to buy noise cancellation headphones), and if they are doing great, why not add a 2nd flight? Not enough demand yet, or is just the lack of planes (only 5 A345s) holding them, or both?

And speaking of not enough planes, would SQ order more A345s or B777LRs? To me it seems logical that if people have responded to its existing service on their A345s and have positive results, especially with their J class high demand, why would SQ exchange its A345s for B777LRs? I know many will say commodity with SQ's existing 777 fleet (plus longer range and extra loads), but is the sky high price of the LR worth the change? Here is what I think....SQ is also getting the A380, and that's commodity too between the airbuses.... also, SQ doesn't need the 777LR's extra range, as I doubt they will want or need to start flights somewhere else that's farther than EWR, and as far as extra seats (or cargo), wouldn't be better to add another flight which will give more flexibility to pax than just upgrade to a bigger plane? I would like your answers on these....

As a last question, I am interested in knowing whether is better to fly direct for 18+ hours or fly with a stop-over, has anyone taken the flight to compare??



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User currently offlineIowa744Fan From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 931 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (8 years 6 months 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 5102 times:

Quoting Atnight (Reply 4):
And speaking of not enough planes, would SQ order more A345s or B777LRs? To me it seems logical that if people have responded to its existing service on their A345s and have positive results, especially with their J class high demand, why would SQ exchange its A345s for B777LRs? I know many will say commodity with SQ's existing 777 fleet (plus longer range and extra loads), but is the sky high price of the LR worth the change? Here is what I think....SQ is also getting the A380, and that's commodity too between the airbuses.... also, SQ doesn't need the 777LR's extra range, as I doubt they will want or need to start flights somewhere else that's farther than EWR, and as far as extra seats (or cargo), wouldn't be better to add another flight

One thing to think about though. Especially with the 773ER fleet that they are buying, commonality will help reduce the total maintenance costs, plus will give them flexibility between the 772LR and the 773ER. I know that Airbus always touts the cross commonality of its products, but I would imagine that most pilot contracts tend to stipulate that only so many are allowed to fly each type of aircraft and others fly this type due to pay issues. I could be completely wrong about that (and please let me know if I am), but that is what I have heard from some pilots. It is easier to retrain them between types. Anyway, back to the payload questions. People may like the A345, but the 772LR offers SQ more options. First, they can offer a dedicated first class cabin, which seems to be a major issue for them. Second, they can add more seats total - particularly in economy. Passengers may like the comfort of the 345's 2-3-2 seating in Y, but I can guarantee you that the yield guys at SQ don't . They would rather have more seats to sell. Airlines care about making money first. I could see them just adding a 2-4-2 interior in the -200LRs though. Even if they choose to keep the seat total roughly the same, they could always have the option to carry additional cargo on these flights, which would also be very lucrative.

In the end, I think that it would make a lot more sense to replace the A345s with 772LRs for these flights. As for doubling frequency, I don't know enough about the loads or demand. Plus, I would think that SQ could unload their A345s pretty easily. If it sways the decision for any or all of the upcoming orders (748/380, 772LR/345, and 787/350), I am sure that Boeing would accept the 5 A345s the SQ operates in exchange for the order. Likewise, I am willing to bet that Airbus would accept them as trade-in should SQ decide to order additional A380s or goes with the A350. So, I don't think that this should be an issue. That is my opinion, and people are welcome to dispute it.

Thanks.


User currently offlineCOEWR787 From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 334 posts, RR: 3
Reply 6, posted (8 years 6 months 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 5079 times:

Quoting Atnight (Reply 4):
has any one of you been on one?

Yes, I have been on it (EWR - SIN - EWR) and am going to be on it again in March. The seat layout is comfortable in Exec Economy. Since I have never found noise to be a problem either in the 340 or in the 777 I guess I cannot comment on the noise issue. I sleep like a baby in either of those without the aid of any noise canceling gizmo.

However, I would readily admit that part of the attraaction of the flight is the Exec Economy. In regular Economy this would be a considerably less pleasant flight and I would probably opt for the one stopper if there were no Exec Economy. The bottom line is that a properly presented ULR product can be very attractive even in spite of the long duration of the flights. So all in all I believe that ULR flights do have a good future. However, they will always remain a bit of a niche.

It seems to me that SQ would most likely go with 777LR on these routes to be able to provide First Class service in addition to Raffles and Exed Economy and perhaps also be able to carry some revenue cargo.

[Edited 2006-01-11 17:24:13]

User currently offlineNethkt From Thailand, joined Apr 2001, 1060 posts, RR: 3
Reply 7, posted (8 years 6 months 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 5024 times:

Any SQ insiders here?

SIN are full of American's companies. SIN is actually the American of South East Asia!! No wonder there are lots of Businessmen travel between SIN-USA all year long.

Too bad for TG on JFK routes. I would love to see them flying for long time. I think they will cut the route very soon. The service I saw in http://www.hflight.net/forum/b-review are rather world class standard in Business, so does Economy.



Let's just blame it on yields.
User currently offlineLeelaw From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (8 years 6 months 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 5010 times:

Quoting COEWR787 (Reply 6):
Quoting Atnight (Reply 4):
has any one of you been on one?

Yes, I have been on it (EWR - SIN - EWR) and am going to be on it again in March. The seat layout is comfortable in Exec Economy. Since I have never found noise to be a problem either in the 340 or in the 777 I guess I cannot comment on the noise issue. I sleep like a baby in either of those without the aid of any noise canceling gizmo.

However, I would readily admit that part of the attraaction of the flight is the Exec Economy. In regular Economy this would be a considerably less pleasant flight and I would probably opt for the one stopper if there were no Exec Economy.

I've been a passenger in executive economy on both routes (departing twice from LAX, and once from EWR). I would echo COEWR787's comments about cabin comfort. The excellent AVOD also helps to make the long flight-times bearable, although I rely mostly on my own iPOD.

My anecdotal experience on six flights flown is that the executive economy cabin has never been more than 50% full (including the inaugural SIN-EWR flight), which has also greatly enhanced my personal experience.


User currently offlineCOEWR787 From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 334 posts, RR: 3
Reply 9, posted (8 years 6 months 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 4979 times:

Quoting Leelaw (Reply 8):
My anecdotal experience on six flights flown is that the executive economy cabin has never been more than 50% full (including the inaugural SIN-EWR flight), which has also greatly enhanced my personal experience.

Seems to vary a lot on a few it was as low as 50% full, but on several others it was 90% plus full. The flight I am scheduled to take in March already appears to be over 60% full. I was lucky to get the last seat in the Exec Economy forward cabin, and the rear was more than 50% full.


User currently offlineRoseFlyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 9459 posts, RR: 52
Reply 10, posted (8 years 6 months 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 4926 times:

Quoting Atnight (Reply 4):
has any one of you been on one?

I have in Raffles Class. Here are the two trip reports for EWR-SIN and SIN-EWR:
United/Singapore ORD-EWR-SIN In Raffles Class (by RoseFlyer Oct 17 2005 in Trip Reports)
SQ/UA SIN-EWR-ORD Raffles Class (stranded In EWR) (by RoseFlyer Oct 24 2005 in Trip Reports)

Quoting Atnight (Reply 4):
Is the cabin layout very comfortable? From what I've read here, it seems that folks are enjoying SQ's A345s and their quietness (so that you can sleep without having to buy noise cancellation headphones)

The cabin layout is quite comfortable. There are a full 10 rows of Raffles Class, which are very nice. There is a lot of space up front in the two cabins. It is amazing how much space there is and how nice it is to walk around the large cabin. Also a lot of people congregate in the galley area to chat during the flight.

The plane is adequately quiet. The A345 is one of the quietest planes in the sky, which is nice. Also if you are in Raffles Class, you are given noise cancelling headphones to use. Although I chose to sleep with earplugs.

Quoting PhilSquares (Reply 3):
Actually, they'd like a F cabin! The demand for "enhanced" Raffles class has been beyond their expectations.

Yes Please! This route totally warrents a first class cabin. As good as the Spacebed in Raffles Class is, there are people that want a true first class experience with fully flat seats, more storage space and improved meal service.

And one more thing. The capacity of the A345 that SQ is operating on these routes is very low. There are about the same number of seats that you would typically find on a 757 (less than 200), so it doesn't surprise me that they can fill up a single A345. The 772LR would be a good plane as it can carry more payload on the route which would translate into more passengers.

[Edited 2006-01-11 18:28:32]


If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
User currently offlineGkpetery From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 116 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (8 years 6 months 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 4918 times:

Quoting COEWR787 (Reply 6):
It seems to me that SQ would most likely go with 777LR on these routes to be able to provide First Class service in addition to Raffles and Exed Economy and perhaps also be able to carry some revenue cargo.

Why can't a A345 not have a first class cabin? Space? It's a big plane.


User currently offlineConcordeBoy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (8 years 6 months 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 4903 times:

Quoting Atnight (Reply 4):
To me it seems logical that if people have responded to its existing service on their A345s and have positive results, especially with their J class high demand, why would SQ exchange its A345s for B777LRs?

Simple, the option of F class and more cargo capability.

Quoting Atnight (Reply 4):
SQ is also getting the A380, and that's commodity too between the airbuses

...very little.

Quoting Gkpetery (Reply 11):
Why can't a A345 not have a first class cabin? Space? It's a big plane.

Nope, capability....or the lack thereof.

The A345 doesnt have the ability to carry heavy F-seats--- plus Raffles, plus significant amount of coach plus cargo on the New York route... while the 772LR could.


User currently offlineAtnight From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 606 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (8 years 6 months 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 4826 times:

Quoting ConcordeBoy (Reply 12):
The A345 doesnt have the ability to carry heavy F-seats--- plus Raffles, plus significant amount of coach plus cargo on the New York route... while the 772LR could.

Seems that folks here say the A345 can't handle F class seats if they put the Raffles on..... however, how can Emirates put the "most amazing" F cabin (suites) in the sky on the A345s, plus Business and Y?? Could you explain the difference??? As far as I know, the A345s of EK have the greatest cabin, something that SQ is still unable to match....

If the A345 can't handle a 3-type config, then SQ has no other choice but to change their planes to B777LRs, yet somehow I'm reluctant to believe that Airbus made thier plane unable to be fitted with a 3 cabin layout.... Any data or verified information about it would be greatly appreciated....



B707 B727 B733/5/7/8/9 B742/4 B752/3 B763/4 B772 A310 A318/319/320 A332 A343 MD80 DC9/10 CRJ200 ERJ145 ERJ-170 Be1900 Da
User currently offlineIowa744Fan From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 931 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (8 years 6 months 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 4800 times:

Quoting Atnight (Reply 13):
Seems that folks here say the A345 can't handle F class seats if they put the Raffles on..... however, how can Emirates put the "most amazing" F cabin (suites) in the sky on the A345s, plus Business and Y?? Could you explain the difference??? As far as I know, the A345s of EK have the greatest cabin, something that SQ is still unable to match....

If the A345 can't handle a 3-type config, then SQ has no other choice but to change their planes to B777LRs, yet somehow I'm reluctant to believe that Airbus made thier plane unable to be fitted with a 3 cabin layout.... Any data or verified information about it would be greatly appreciated....

Atnight,

The problem isn't an issue of whether or not an A345 could get off the ground with F class seats or whether the floor could support it. That is not that issue here. If SQ fitted their A345s in a standard 3 class layout of 250-300 seats, it could easily get off the ground. The problem is that the fuel required for the SQ flights is much higher and represents a larger portion of the max. take off weight of the A345.

Take a look at EK's longest A345 flights. I think presently that they are JFKDXB and DXBSYD. Here are the planned flight times for each:

JFKDXB: 12:40
DXBJFK: 14:10
DXBSYD: 13:55
SYDDXB: 14:45

If you compare this to SQ's ultra longhauls:

LAXSIN: 18:20
SINLAX: 15:25
EWRSIN: 18:35
SINEWR: 18:10

As you can see, the SQ flights are around 3-4 hours longer than the longest EK flights. Thus, they require a bit more fuel than the EK flights require. This additional weight from this fuel is what prevents SQ from operating an F class cabin, as it takes up a larger portion of the MTOW of the A345. They technicaly could take out quite a bit of Y and put in F class seats, but I doubt that the trade-off would be beneficial.

The benefit to SQ of the 772LR is that the payload capacity is higher than that of the A345. Thus, it is able to take additional weight on these flights, which can be used to provide an F class cabin.


User currently offlinePhilSquares From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (8 years 6 months 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 4686 times:

Quoting Atnight (Reply 13):
If the A345 can't handle a 3-type config, then SQ has no other choice but to change their planes to B777LRs, yet somehow I'm reluctant to believe that Airbus made thier plane unable to be fitted with a 3 cabin layout.... Any data or verified information about it would be greatly appreciated....

The problem isn't about the 345 being able to handle a 3 class configuration, it's about finding the optimum configuration for SQ. If they wanted to add a F class, in reality, they'd have to rip out several rows in Y and move everything back. That would reduce the overall capacity. It's already small enough.

With the 777, a F cabin can be added and the aircraft can still have a decent pax load. Don't look for them to go to a 2-4-2 seating on the 772LR, but it will be kept just like it is on the 345.

I have "deadheaded" on the SIN-EWR section several times. More often than not in "enhanced Y" not the worst seats, but not as good as the "enhanced Rafles". But, everytime I've done the flight the aircraft was well over 90% full. IIRC, Tue and Wed are the slowest days with the weekend days having the highest LF in both directions.


User currently offlineSingaporegirl From Singapore, joined Oct 2000, 302 posts, RR: 9
Reply 16, posted (8 years 6 months 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 4658 times:

people always mentioned the lack of f class cabin on our a345s. for me, aside for the a345s, sometimes i also wish they company would put f class cabin on our long haul b772ers as well. some pax ask why we don't offer f class products on our a345s nor the b772ers.


Ladies & Gentlemen, we will now demonstrate the use of the safety equipment on this aircraft...
User currently offlineZvezda From Lithuania, joined Aug 2004, 10511 posts, RR: 64
Reply 17, posted (8 years 6 months 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 4624 times:

Quoting Gkpetery (Reply 11):
Why can't a A345 not have a first class cabin? Space? It's a big plane.

Weight, not space. The A340-500 is already a very heavy plane for its size.


User currently offlineAtnight From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 606 posts, RR: 1
Reply 18, posted (8 years 6 months 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 4618 times:

Quoting Iowa744Fan (Reply 14):
The problem is that the fuel required for the SQ flights is much higher and represents a larger portion of the max. take off weight of the A345.



Quoting PhilSquares (Reply 15):
The problem isn't about the 345 being able to handle a 3 class configuration, it's about finding the optimum configuration for SQ. If they wanted to add a F class, in reality, they'd have to rip out several rows in Y and move everything back. That would reduce the overall capacity. It's already small enough.

Thank you guys for explaining this out.... I guess I wasn't taking that into consideration... I was under the impression that the A345 was designed as an ULR plane, rather than as an optional feature for the aircraft, as I have come to understand, thus the difference between EK and SQ.... I guess that if indeed SQ needs the F cabin for their UL flights, they really have no choice but to buy 777LR and have a single type across their entire fleet, with the A380 as the oddball, since the 777LR would be the only aircraft to be able to have such layout (3 class) and fly so long.... I guess airbus didn't come with a product that can really compete in the UL category.....

Speaking of ULR, which airlines have ULR planes??? Which ones have ordered them? If EK's A345s aren't exactly ULR, and SQ and TG so far the only ones using them for extreme long flights, I don't see anyone (besides QF, eventually SYD-LHR) really needing these planes... any idea who else needs them?



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User currently offlineBjornstrom From Australia, joined Jun 2005, 329 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (8 years 6 months 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 4579 times:

I did SQ20 SIN-LAX last week (click for pictures) and those 14:40 hours was nothing - slept for 8.5 hours in Raffles Class. Very quiet plane and the cabin was very nice with the small amount of seats.

All non-stop flights has been full booked for weeks over the christmas season and I would not be surprised if SQ will convert it to two daily flights using 772LR.

As a note: I travel a lot but the jetlag after SIN-LAX was the worst I ever experienced. I had to work at CES in LAS and felt totally messed up for 3-4 days actually.



Eurobonus Gold | BMI Gold | http://my.flightmemory.com/bjornstrom/
User currently offlineSllevin From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 3376 posts, RR: 6
Reply 20, posted (8 years 6 months 16 hours ago) and read 4358 times:

Quoting Iowa744Fan (Reply 14):
That is not that issue here. If SQ fitted their A345s in a standard 3 class layout of 250-300 seats, it could easily get off the ground.

Agreed; it's the splashing into the ocean part that makes the flights highly uneconomical  Smile  Smile

Steve


User currently offlineFlyingHippo From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 680 posts, RR: 1
Reply 21, posted (8 years 6 months 15 hours ago) and read 4326 times:

In order for SQ to increase capacity and add a F class product on their 772LR, they have to put their Y class seating in 2-4-2 configuration (or even 3-3-3 with 35-36 inches between them). I'm not sure how many more pax a 772LR would be able to carry if SQ adds F products on this route.

User currently offlineAirbazar From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 8153 posts, RR: 10
Reply 22, posted (8 years 6 months 15 hours ago) and read 4313 times:

I've heard this explanation many times but I'm still not convinced. SQ is currently removing F class from even the 777's and it's not like they can't handle it. The fact that some passengers say they wish there was a F class doesn't mean there is enough demand for it to make it viable. these days F class doesn't make money anymore. It's just the prestige of having it more than anything else. Many airlines are doing away with it and moving to a 2 class configuration. SQ's Rafles class is still way better than anyone else's first class on the EWR-SIN and LAX-SIN routes. I suspect the real truth is somewhere in the middle between aircraft capability and passenger demand.

User currently offlineIowa744fan From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 931 posts, RR: 1
Reply 23, posted (8 years 6 months 15 hours ago) and read 4307 times:

Quoting Atnight (Reply 18):
Thank you guys for explaining this out....

You are welcome.

Also, airlines that I am aware of with ULR aircraft:

A345:
SQ
EK
AC
TG

772LR (none delivered yet - but orders from):
PK
AI
EK (pax and F)
BR (or did they convert their 772LRs to 773ERs?)
AC (pax and F)

Did AF order any 772LRFs? For some reason I remember reading that they were considering it, but I don't recall if they announced anything.

Any others that I am forgetting?

Avion Group (not sure of their code - also all freighters)


User currently offlineFlyingHippo From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 680 posts, RR: 1
Reply 24, posted (8 years 6 months 15 hours ago) and read 4281 times:

Quoting Iowa744fan (Reply 23):
Did AF order any 772LRFs? For some reason I remember reading that they were considering it, but I don't recall if they announced anything.

IIRC, they were the launching customer for 772LRF


25 Singaporegirl : none of our long haul 772ers are equipped with the skysuites (f class seats). only our regional 777s have first class cabins (but they're not skysuit
26 Post contains images Jacobin777 : here are a few... PK, AC, AI, EK, QR, BR...and AF have purchased the freighter version of it....look for other carriers to order (such as SQ) if the
27 Post contains images Abrelosojos : = Are you serious ? I prefer SQ's F to EK's F ... and yes, I have flown both several times. -A.
28 RoseFlyer : I don't agree with that statement. On many routes first class does not make money, which is why many airlines have removed it. But there are still so
29 Atnight : I'm sorry to bring this point, but from the information you posted earlier, EK isn't using the A345 as a ULR aircraft, but as a "standard" A345... Th
30 SFORunner : Are you sure it was the jet lag and not something else?
31 Jacobin777 : realistically speaking, EK will be able to serve nonstop basically everypart of the world they need to...including places such as EZE, SFO, LAX....th
32 Post contains images Bjornstrom : This is not my view at all - I am flying United F next week and found out that they are using SpaceBeds just like Raffles Class. Service on UA will n
33 Post contains images RoseFlyer : What? United uses the Spacebed for First Class on their Premium Service 757s between JFK and LAX/SFO. The real United First Class on internationally
34 Zvezda : The other things that are better about SQ Raffles class than UA international F class are the service, the amenity kits, cleanliness, curtains betwee
35 RoseFlyer : What amenity kits? SQ doesn't give out amenity kits in Raffles Class. Items are available in the lavatory or upon request. United First still offers
36 MarshalN : The number of flight attendants per pax makes no difference whatsoever if the FAs in question aren't good, and UA FAs are generally, well.... I haven
37 Zvezda : Last week I told an SQ stewardess when I boarded that I planned to sleep during the flight so I wouldn't be having a meal. She offered to serve me th
38 Post contains images Bjornstrom : SQ does not offer amenity kits in Raffles Class anymore. You get a couple of socks though Ah, thats the one im taking: LAX-JFK on their p.s. service.
39 RoseFlyer : United offers a fully flat first class suite on all 747 flights and on all international 777 flights. There is a small subfleet of 777s in a high den
40 Pieinthesky : I would also go for SQ in Raffles before UA in F any day of the week. The seat may be 'flat' but the rest of their long haul product is awful, topped
41 Asianguy767 : A SQ A345 pilot I spoke to tells me that SQ will sell and lease back its A345 to Airbus. But lease back 10 instead of the current 5. Duration of lease
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