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US Forces Advised Against Travel On Gulf Air  
User currently offlineFlyEmirates From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (8 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 6843 times:

http://travel.state.gov/travel/cis_pa_tw/cis/cis_1050.html

As a result of the August 23, 2000 crash of a Gulf Air flight in the Persian Gulf, the U.S. Department of Defense has recommended that military commanders use air carriers other than Gulf Air for official travel.

wow what a blow was browsing and saw this, over reaction dont you think?

37 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineCedarjet From United Kingdom, joined May 1999, 8060 posts, RR: 54
Reply 1, posted (8 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 6808 times:

It is an overreaction. The accident was a tragedy, killing a load of Palestinian and Egyptian school kids along with everyone else onboard. The pilot (and by extension co-pilot) really wasn't having a good day, a poorly flown approach, a dangerous go-around, followed by spatial disorientation that saw them fly right into the deck. But look at the chain of events that led to the crash of that US military 737 that crashed in Croatia and killed Secretary Of Commerce Ron Brown - much worse. Or the AA587 disaster, where the copilot marks a routine encounter with wake turbulence by stomping on alternate rudder pedals til the tail rips off. I bet the US military don't ban their people from flying on AA - or their own flying service, eh?

Not accusing the people behind this decision of racism or anything, more likely an overreaction by some pen-pusher who doesn't know his arse from his elbow, and who doesn't know that Gulf Air virtually invented aviation in the Middle East (along with MEA) and have an otherwise exceptional safety record.



fly Saha Air 707s daily from Tehran's downtown Mehrabad to Mashhad, Kish Island and Ahwaz
User currently offlineLumberton From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 4708 posts, RR: 20
Reply 2, posted (8 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 6666 times:

What were the circumstances of the crash? You may disagree with and not like the recomendation, but our authorities have every right to make it if they think that a similar incident/accident is likely to occur. That's why I asked about the particulars of this accident. Was there negligence?

Edit:
By the way, I've flown Gulf Air and was very impressed with their onboard service. The checkin folks could have used a little more "training" in customer relations.

[Edited 2006-01-14 00:01:20]


"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
User currently offlineSWISSER From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (8 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 6534 times:

What a blow!

Certainly for a carrier that flies one of the advanced aircrafts in the world,
and in fact it will soon be my new employer!  Wink


User currently offlineCX777Fan From Australia, joined Feb 2005, 294 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (8 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 6459 times:

If one were to faithfully apply this US military "logic" (anyone smell an oxymoron?) then their staff should really only be allowed to fly the small number of airlines like QF who've never had a fatal accident. As Cedarjet says, most US airlines should be struck off the list!

User currently offlineL-188 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 29791 posts, RR: 58
Reply 5, posted (8 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 6414 times:

I am willing to bet the "Ban" has nothing to do with the crash. Setting aside the fact that US personel tend to be booked by the goverment of US Carriers, there may be another reason.

It may be a way to prevent an incident where a US person runs into a local national who is upset about US actions in the region and not offend the host nation.



OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
User currently offlineBHMNONREV From Australia, joined Aug 2003, 1368 posts, RR: 4
Reply 6, posted (8 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 6397 times:

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 2):
By the way, I've flown Gulf Air and was very impressed with their onboard service.

Ditto sir...While not my preferred carrier to/from the Gulf, I have had the pleasure of flying Gulf Air on several occasions via AUH and BAH and found the overall experience to be excellent.

Something tells me a senior US State Dept official had an unpleasant experience and has managed to get GF blacklisted. What a shame....


User currently offlineA300 From United States of America, joined May 2004, 473 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (8 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 6198 times:
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We forget that Iran is in the Middle East. It wasn't MEA or Gulf Air that invented aviation in the region. Iran has had commercial air service for nearly 70 years!


Boland Aseman Jayegah Man Ast.
User currently offlineFlyboy36y From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 3039 posts, RR: 7
Reply 8, posted (8 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 6146 times:

Or the AA587 disaster, where the copilot marks a routine encounter with wake turbulence by stomping on alternate rudder pedals til the tail rips off. I

Or the AA587 dissaster, where Airbus made the rudder too weak to withstand above average rudder push without a catastrophic failure.


User currently offlineKappel From Suriname, joined Jul 2005, 3533 posts, RR: 17
Reply 9, posted (8 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 6119 times:

Quoting Flyboy36y (Reply 8):
Or the AA587 disaster, where the copilot marks a routine encounter with wake turbulence by stomping on alternate rudder pedals til the tail rips off. I

Or the AA587 dissaster, where Airbus made the rudder too weak to withstand above average rudder push without a catastrophic failure.

PLease not this discussion again. The NTSB clearly said that the forces applied to the rudder were far above FAA standards, but also that the rudder was too sensitive to input and also AA training was to blame. There was no one cause, as there almost never is in airline tragedies such as that.



L1011,733,734,73G,738,743,744,752,763,772,77W,DC855,DC863,DC930,DC950,MD11,MD88,306,319,320,321,343,346,ARJ85,CR7,E195
User currently offlineYOWza From Canada, joined Jul 2005, 4865 posts, RR: 15
Reply 10, posted (8 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 6091 times:

Quoting L-188 (Reply 5):
It may be a way to prevent an incident where a US person runs into a local national who is upset about US actions in the region and not offend the host nation.

Then why let US military personnel fly with any Gulf carriers? I saw a US Naval Offcier in the Airport in Dubai in full formal attire recently and he was not getting the warmest of looks from people in the airport even in liberal Dubai.

Quoting Flyboy36y (Reply 8):
Or the AA587 dissaster, where Airbus made the rudder too weak to withstand above average rudder push without a catastrophic failure.

Yeah that's why airbus planes seem to just keep falling out of the sky  Yeah sure Here we go again.

Surely they should prevent US personnel flying Iran Air, after all Iran Air planes are prone to being shot down by the their own ships.  stirthepot 

YOWza



12A whenever possible.
User currently offlineLumberton From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 4708 posts, RR: 20
Reply 11, posted (8 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 6070 times:

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 2):
What were the circumstances of the crash?

I'll ask again: what caused the crash? If the concerns are safety related, then all the pious posturing in the world won't change the fact that there is at least an issue that the State Dept has concerns about? So, who has details concerning the crash?



"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
User currently offlineDL Widget Head From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 2086 posts, RR: 5
Reply 12, posted (8 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 6046 times:

Quoting L-188 (Reply 5):
I am willing to bet the "Ban" has nothing to do with the crash.

It is not a "ban" merely a recommendation.


User currently offlineHiJazzey From Saudi Arabia, joined Sep 2005, 864 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (8 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 6016 times:

There's bit of a double standard here. While pilot error was the main cause for the Gulf Air crash, GF has otherwise a good safety record. They certainly aren't a dodgy airline. They're no worse than the American majors.

As for oldest airlines in ME, both MS and TK are over 10 years older than GF and IR, hell even SV is older than the latter two. So please spare me the childish "we invented aviation in the region" crap.


User currently offlineLumberton From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 4708 posts, RR: 20
Reply 14, posted (8 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 6002 times:

Quoting HiJazzey (Reply 13):
So please spare me the childish "we invented aviation in the region" crap.

Please point out to me where this came up?



"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
User currently offlineGr8Circle From Canada, joined Dec 2005, 3097 posts, RR: 4
Reply 15, posted (8 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 5958 times:

Quoting L-188 (Reply 5):
I am willing to bet the "Ban" has nothing to do with the crash. Setting aside the fact that US personel tend to be booked by the goverment of US Carriers, there may be another reason.

It may be a way to prevent an incident where a US person runs into a local national who is upset about US actions in the region and not offend the host nation.

Then why only GF? They should stop flying on any Arab airline, including EK and Etihad...

[Edited 2006-01-14 14:44:09]

User currently offlineA300 From United States of America, joined May 2004, 473 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (8 years 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 5447 times:
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Who said anything about IR? Junkers Persian Air Services (or some name like that) was operational in Iran in the 1920s and 1930s. The first DC-3 on the other side of the Gulf was delivered in 1945 as a gift of FDR! Turkey is in Near East and Egypt is in North Africa. Egypt can be considered part of MENA ( Middle East and North Africa) region but not purely ME. Correcting factual errors are hardly considered childish.


Boland Aseman Jayegah Man Ast.
User currently offlineTakeOff From United States of America, joined May 2004, 89 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (8 years 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 5369 times:

As DL Widget Head pointed out, that's merely a recommendation. Funny how anything that comes from the U.S. government (present or past, Republican or Democratic) geared towards protecting its citizens, automatically comes under heavy criticism or is seen as someting "bigger," "darker," and sinister. I'm sure Gulf Air wasn't happy to lose any passengers to this recommendation. I guess that as much as (that part of) the world hates us, they hate losing our business more.

User currently offlineMarkATL From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 539 posts, RR: 8
Reply 18, posted (8 years 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 5214 times:

Quoting A300 (Reply 7):
We forget that Iran is in the Middle East. It wasn't MEA or Gulf Air that invented aviation in the region. Iran has had commercial air service for nearly 70 years!

In spite of sanctions the technicians at Iran Air keep those planes flying. These guys have got to be some of the best in world.

Quoting YOWza (Reply 10):
Surely they should prevent US personnel flying Iran Air, after all Iran Air planes are prone to being shot down by the their own ships.

Nearly twenty year old inexcusable tragic error....God rest their souls. All the victims were innocent.

Quoting YOWza (Reply 10):
I saw a US Naval Officer in the Airport in Dubai in full formal attire recently and he was not getting the warmest of looks from people in the airport even in liberal Dubai.

When I proudly served overseas in the Army, it was rare for us to travel in uniform. Even in a country that has good relations with US and the military, the people don't want it flaunted in their face. This officer showed bad judgment by letting his pride be more important than the sensitivities of the people in the host country.

This is not just out of courtesy. If resentment grows the cost of moving these facilities can be huge. I refer to such actions as the pull out from Saudi Arabia and the Philippines.

-=MarkATL=-



"...left my home in Georgia, 'n headed for the "Frisco" Bay...
User currently offlineLumberton From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 4708 posts, RR: 20
Reply 19, posted (8 years 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 5170 times:

Rather than all the political b.s., does anyone have any information as to the merits of the recommendation? Are GF's safety practices suspect?


"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
User currently offlineNumberTwelve From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 1431 posts, RR: 9
Reply 20, posted (8 years 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 4861 times:

Quoting Flyboy36y (Reply 8):
Or the AA587 dissaster, where Airbus made the rudder too weak

Sorry, that's nonsense. Otherwise more accidents with A300's would have happened.



signature censored by admin - so check my profile
User currently offlineZKNEA From New Zealand, joined Dec 2005, 151 posts, RR: 1
Reply 21, posted (8 years 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 4531 times:

Quoting TakeOff (Reply 17):
they hate losing our business more.

You speak as if there is a city of American millitary commanders. Whilst losing any buisness is bad, I'm sure they would be more concerned with losing the buisness of a corporation than that of the American army commanders.

On that point, any reason why it's only their commanders??


User currently offlineMoparman From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 411 posts, RR: 2
Reply 22, posted (8 years 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 4429 times:

Quoting YOWza (Reply 10):
Surely they should prevent US personnel flying Iran Air, after all Iran Air planes are prone to being shot down by the their own ships.

That is correct, especially if the said aircraft carries military transsponders. That little fact you have neglected to mention. Also on the subject, why were all the bodies found nude? Is it not Islamic custom to cover a corpse with a cloth before being comitted? I firmly believe that the aircraft was filled with corpses, and the pilot flew a suecide mission to create an incident. This is the only explaination to why this airliner had a military transponder and all the bodies, with exception of 2 pilots, were nude.



"Harming a patient is unethical, but I can inflict as much pain as I like" Dr. Phlox
User currently offlineLumberton From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 4708 posts, RR: 20
Reply 23, posted (8 years 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 4271 times:

Quoting YOWza (Reply 10):
Surely they should prevent US personnel flying Iran Air,

To the best of my knowledge, no U.S. military personnel have flown Iran Air in a long, long time. Probably since the Shah's downfall. If there was a point to be made here, it was lost on me.  confused 



"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
User currently offlineL-188 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 29791 posts, RR: 58
Reply 24, posted (8 years 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 4267 times:

Quoting YOWza (Reply 10):
Then why let US military personnel fly with any Gulf carriers? I saw a US Naval Offcier in the Airport in Dubai in full formal attire recently and he was not getting the warmest of looks from people in the airport even in liberal Dubai.

Exactly why I am surprised that we are seeing US personel on local national carriers.

As far as Gulf Air goes.....I don't know why they are singled out....maybe they just had a convient less offensive excuse.



OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
25 Bennett123 : Moparman Assuming that your unsourced account is correct, then why did the Iranians strip the corpses?.
26 A319XFW : Probably because US carriers don't fly there?
27 EyeLN : What's this? Must not have had the correct google search words to figure this out... iranian airline, crash, nude corpses.....what are we discussing?
28 MarkATL : This line of thought is beyond disturbing. Even the US Navy has concluded it was a tragic accident. They have concluded they were at fault. The Irani
29 RoseFlyer : It is not only the military that does this. Many large companies restrict employees from flying certain airlines. There are posted suggestions for wh
30 EyeLN : July, 1988?
31 MarkATL : Yes, and compensation was paid. Although they still blame the incident on hostile action by Iranian forces. They acknowledge that the plane was shot
32 Lumberton : Correct. In fact, when British Airways placed a very large Boeing order in the '80s, Airbus was so ticked off they announced publically that their em
33 Moparman : It is my hypothesis that the passengers were already dead when placed aboard the aircraft. To my understanding it is Islamic custom to cover the body
34 A300 : Anybody that still thinks that IR 655 had a military transponder is 17 years behind times. The investigations by the US Navy, Iranian CAO and ICAO rev
35 Moparman : Mark, I completely agree with you and the U.S. Navy. It was most certainly an accident in that the aircraft in question was an airliner; on a schedul
36 UAL747DEN : What in the hell is a WMA ???
37 MarkATL : It's me being a dumba$$. I meant WMD.
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