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WSJ: Boeing & Airbus Both Claim Victory  
User currently offlineBoomBoom From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 7369 times:

...when Airbus announces its numbers on Tuesday, it isn't likely to concede defeat.

Airbus is expected to report that the company had a record year for orders -- even if its total didn't quite match Boeing's -- and that it delivered more jetliners than Boeing for the third consecutive year. Boeing delivered 290 planes in 2005; Airbus said late last year they expected to deliver about 370.

Airbus will likely play down their failure to hit a self-proclaimed target of 200 orders for the new midsize A350. They will probably note that their performance of about 180 orders was better than Boeing's a year earlier, when it promised 200 orders for the fledgling 787 and got only 56.

Already, each side has begun to quietly question whether its competitor is trying to pad its numbers by counting orders before they are backed by signed contracts and cash deposits. Each company insists that its order accounting is honest.

The big question is when will U.S. and European giants like American Airlines, United Airlines, Lufthansa and British Airways start to update aging parts of their fleets.

Carriers can't afford to fly their old planes forever, particularly when both Boeing and Airbus are offering newer models that promise operating and maintenance savings of more than 30%. Carriers that wait too long might be out of luck because delivery slots at both Boeing and Airbus are filling up well into 2009.


http://online.wsj.com/article/SB113720150145246645.html?mod=INDUSTRY

[Edited 2006-01-14 17:39:06]

63 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineA319XFW From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 7355 times:

Airbus hasn't claimed victory (yet?).
We'll have to wait for the 17th to see. Anything else is pure speculation.


User currently offlineMidnightMike From United States of America, joined Mar 2003, 2892 posts, RR: 14
Reply 2, posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 7315 times:

Sheesh, at this point, who the hell cares who sold more aircraft, both Airbus & Boeing had an amazing year with their respective aircraft sales, cheers...


NO URLS in signature
User currently offlineER757 From Cayman Islands, joined May 2005, 2526 posts, RR: 7
Reply 3, posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 7280 times:

Quoting MidnightMike (Reply 2):
Sheesh, at this point, who the hell cares who sold more aircraft, both Airbus & Boeing had an amazing year with their respective aircraft sales, cheers...

Amen to that. Quite a successful year for both regardless of the final numbers.
Hard to imagine that either will be able to match 2005 sales in 2006, but you never know. It will be fun to sit on the sidelines and watch, that's for sure.


User currently offlineKJFK31L From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 148 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 7198 times:

Quoting MidnightMike (Reply 2):
Sheesh, at this point, who the hell cares who sold more aircraft, both Airbus & Boeing had an amazing year with their respective aircraft sales, cheers...

Exactly my point when I started a forum a few days ago about Boeing and Airbus 2005 sales. Reuters had reported amazing increases in aircraft sales for BOTH companies, important because it provides a glimpse into the direction of the aerospace industry. Though this is on the strength of their new respective programs, it is nice to see Airbus pushing more than its A350s and A380s and Boeing pushing more than its 747-800 and the 787 Dreamliner.

As for the official numbers, Airbus is slightly under 1000 while Boeing is slightly above. There is a margin of less than 100 aircraft sales between the two companies, however if a number of Chinese airlines make final their orders for 600 Boeing aircraft, Boeing's yearly total could increase slightly (as of now, not all of these orders are firm).

Matt



If it's not Boeing, I'm not going.
User currently offlineA319XFW From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 7182 times:

Quoting KJFK31L (Reply 4):
however if a number of Chinese airlines make final their orders for 600 Boeing aircraft, Boeing's yearly total could increase slightly (as of now, not all of these orders are firm).

600?


User currently offlineKJFK31L From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 148 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 7161 times:

Quoting A319XFW (Reply 5):
600?

Oops! That would be 60, not 600. Thanks for the correction A319XFW!!

Matt



If it's not Boeing, I'm not going.
User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21532 posts, RR: 59
Reply 7, posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 7052 times:

Boeing closed ALL China orders before Jan 1, and one can assume so did Airbus. That's one reason Airbus's orders jumped so much in Dec, they had more to still close than Boeing.


Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineJacobin777 From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 14968 posts, RR: 59
Reply 8, posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 6995 times:

who cares about the final number tally if company x sells 100 single-isle planes and company y sells 80 widebody planes.....

I think it will be more tellling as to what the bottom line for both companies are in the civil aviation sector....

that's where the truth of the matter will come out...



"Up the Irons!"
User currently offlineN79969 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 6959 times:

Quoting MidnightMike (Reply 2):
who the hell cares who sold more aircraft,

Noel Forgeard and John Leahy of course. They have egos to defend and reputations to uphold.

Quoting A319XFW (Reply 1):
We'll have to wait for the 17th to see. Anything else is pure speculation.

If the WSJ is now running the story, it is better than "pure speculation."


User currently offlineTifoso From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 440 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 6947 times:

Quoting BoomBoom (Thread starter):
Airbus will likely play down their failure to hit a self-proclaimed target of 200 orders for the new midsize A350.

What? This thing is getting terribly irritating. Each publication reports something different  bomb 


User currently offlineAvObserver From United States of America, joined Apr 2002, 2472 posts, RR: 9
Reply 11, posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 3 days ago) and read 6802 times:

"Airbus will likely play down their failure to hit a self-proclaimed target of 200 orders for the new midsize A350. They will probably note that their performance of about 180 orders was better than Boeing's a year earlier, when it promised 200 orders for the fledgling 787 and got only 56."

I think the WSJ meant 156 787 committments, NOT 56, at end of '04 vs. 180 committments for A350 by yearend '05. In both cases, neither totals were entirely FIRM orders. Sure, Airbus can claim a higher number by their goal but it can also be argued that 787 momentum was likely somewhat slowed by some customers holding off until seeing how Airbus would respond, a situation the A350 didn't face. Both are doing very well and the A350 doesn't have to match 787 sales, being a lower cost program, so Airbus needn't feel pressure to capture more than 40% of that market, much as Boeing needn't worry about not getting 50% of the very large airliner market with its 747-8.


User currently offlineAgill From Sweden, joined Feb 2004, 1011 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 6593 times:

Quoting MidnightMike (Reply 2):
Sheesh, at this point, who the hell cares who sold more aircraft,

Well tragicly a lot of people on this forum are extremely preoccupied with that.


User currently offlineJet-lagged From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 872 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 6508 times:

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 8):
who cares about the final number tally if company x sells 100 single-isle planes and company y sells 80 widebody planes.....

I think it will be more tellling as to what the bottom line for both companies are in the civil aviation sector....

Yes, simply stating the number of aircraft sold, while an easy to understand metric, is not as accurate a reflection of the situation as could be. Number of equivalent seats, or empty take-off weight (ETOW?). And judjing from the skew of small vs. large aircraft sold by each manufacturer last year, the difference is not just 10%.

Ultimately the most accurate numbers for bragging rights would be based on contract value, but sadly neither maker is going to divulge those numbers.


User currently offlineCruiser From Canada, joined Apr 2005, 1001 posts, RR: 7
Reply 14, posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 6318 times:

Quoting AvObserver (Reply 11):
I think the WSJ meant 156 787 committments, NOT 56, at end of '04 vs. 180 committments for A350 by yearend '05. In both cases, neither totals were entirely FIRM orders. Sure, Airbus can claim a higher number by their goal but it can also be argued that 787 momentum was likely somewhat slowed by some customers holding off until seeing how Airbus would respond, a situation the A350 didn't face.

I think that they meant 56. According to the Boeing website, 56 787's were signed as FIRM orders in 2004. However, the 200 that the WSJ is referring to for Airbus is both Orders & Commitments. IIRC, Boeing had about 190-193 Orders and Commitments at the end of 2004.

Once again, its seems that everyone is getting Orders and Commitments confused, and using it to skew the numbers. This is nothing new.

James



Leahy on Per Seat Costs: "Have you seen the B-2 fly-by at almost US$1bn a copy? It has only 2 seats!"
User currently offlineTifoso From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 440 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 6278 times:

Quoting Cruiser (Reply 14):
IIRC, Boeing had about 190-193 Orders and Commitments at the end of 2004.

No, it was 56 firm, and 126 firm + commitments.

Quote:
Customer announced orders and commitments for the 7E7 now total 126 airplanes, including 56 under firm contract.

This was in the Vietnam airlines order press release, which happened to be the final 7E7 order for 2004. Vietnam Airlines Joins Boeing 7E7 Dreamliner Launch Team


User currently offlineCruiser From Canada, joined Apr 2005, 1001 posts, RR: 7
Reply 16, posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 6147 times:

Quoting Tifoso (Reply 15):

No, it was 56 firm, and 126 firm + commitments.

I guess my memory is going! I just did some more research, and it was 126 Firm + Commitments.

James



Leahy on Per Seat Costs: "Have you seen the B-2 fly-by at almost US$1bn a copy? It has only 2 seats!"
User currently offlineGearup From Canada, joined Dec 2000, 578 posts, RR: 1
Reply 17, posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 6063 times:

Quoting BoomBoom (Thread starter):
The big question is when will U.S. and European giants like American Airlines, United Airlines, Lufthansa and British Airways start to update aging parts of their fleets.

Do you think it likely that American and United will be in a position financially to carry out fleet renewal anytime soon? If so, the numbers will be big.

GU



I have no memory of this place.
User currently offlineBoomBoom From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 5862 times:

Quoting BoomBoom (Thread starter):
Airbus will likely play down their failure to hit a self-proclaimed target of 200 orders for the new midsize A350. They will probably note that their performance of about 180 orders was better than Boeing's a year earlier, when it promised 200 orders for the fledgling 787 and got only 56.

So it's an apples to oranges comparison. Boeing gets only firm orders counted and Airbus gets orders and commitments. So how many firm orders did Airbus get?


User currently offlineUAL747DEN From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 2392 posts, RR: 11
Reply 19, posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 5762 times:

Does anyone want to figure out how many seats each sold? I think that would be a great idea!


/// UNITED AIRLINES
User currently offlineElvis777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 360 posts, RR: 3
Reply 20, posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 5508 times:

Hello All,

let me be the first and perhaps the only one to admit to this open and perhaps shameful secret. One that seems to be blatantly obvious:

I care who wins the order and delivery race. I really truly do. It is clear that I believe the best engineering and science is in our side and it makes me happy that our products are selling well - in some cases better than those of the european consortium. I like the competition and look forward to future challenges where we (Boeing) can garner more orders and design new, innovative and inspiring birds. Perhaps I will be labeled to be not a true blue aviation fan. I don't happen to agree with that but if that is the case so be it! I am glad we got more orders than EADS. I believe that this will continue to be the case since I believe we have a better product. I am not so glad that they delivered more frames than we did. I believe that this will change in the next few years and that will make me happy.

I also believe that the french led consortium makes good birds and that it would be foolish to let our hubris get the better of us again by underestimating their products. But I do not think that will happen again. As I said earlier I look forward to the challenges that this competition will pose for us. They have raised the bar but I feel that we have met the challenge rather well and will raise the bar above their reach. Frankly I like our chances in this competition!!

Is there no one in the european camp that will wear this scarlet letter with me? Keesje? Wings? Manni?

Peace

Elvis777



Leper,Unevolved, Misplaced and Unrepentant SportsFanatic and a ZOMBIE as well
User currently offlinePlaneDane From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 5460 times:

Quoting MidnightMike (Reply 2):
Sheesh, at this point, who the hell cares who sold more aircraft, both Airbus & Boeing had an amazing year with their respective aircraft sales, cheers...

I agree completely. It is really gratifying to see such a great comeback for Boeing from just a few years ago. It is also just astounding to see how well the A320 family sells.

Congrats to both.


User currently offlineN79969 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 5355 times:

Quoting Elvis777 (Reply 20):
I care who wins the order and delivery race. I really truly do. It is clear that I believe the best engineering and science is in our side and it makes me happy that our products are selling well - in some cases better than those of the european consortium. I like the competition and look forward to future challenges where we (Boeing) can garner more orders and design new, innovative and inspiring birds.

I am right with you. I certainly do care and am probably less diplomatic than you about it. And I think it is natural for the companies themselves to care as it as a normal part of rivalry.

This thread is about competing claims for the 2005 'title' and I think the issue is a little different from the point you raise. Either Boeing or Airbus is not telling the truth. Who is lying?

I think some of the gerrymandering of dates and definitions of 'sale' have gotten out of hand. If Airbus actually tries to claim a success by saying that it missed its 200 unit target in 2005 but it is a victory since the margin was lesser than Boeing's 2004 787 deficit, I would be disappointed but not surprised. That is a convoluted and tortured notion of 'success.' It would be far more graceful to just say "oh well, we missed but we'll make 200 soon enough"

Forgeard and John Leahy are a couple of glory hounds. I do not blame Leahy much because his job as salesman-in-chief is to generate excitement about their products. He has talk to a little trash. Through sheer force of personality, he is credited with really putting Airbus on the map by closing some key deals. Given the link between his aggressive tactics and Airbus sales, he is arguably just doing his job.

Noel Forgeard on the other hand is of dubious value in the business of making and selling airplanes in my view. As far as I can tell, he is a politically-savvy and very-well connected ex-bureaucrat who works diligently for the advancement....of himself mostly. I think he was good for shaking down the money trees in the EU whenever it was time for some fresh launch aid. Otherwise he seems to be a loose, trouble-making cannon that should either be demoted to a sales job or forced out of the company. He does not strike me as CEO material.

Boeing posted 1002 orders. Someone correct me if I am mistaken, but I think those are firm orders and not any of the lesser forms of business agreement. That is a pretty straightforward count or should be. As many people have said, Airbus also had a very, very bountiful year. They may truly have more than 1002 orders using the same method of counting. If not, I wonder how much they will stretch the rules and dates to claim the crown.

[Edited 2006-01-15 07:58:11]

User currently offlineManni From South Korea, joined Nov 2001, 4221 posts, RR: 22
Reply 23, posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 5335 times:

Quoting Elvis777 (Reply 20):

I care who wins the order and delivery race. I really truly do. It is clear that I believe the best engineering and science is in our side and it makes me happy that our products are selling well - in some cases better than those of the european consortium. I like the competition and look forward to future challenges where we (Boeing) can garner more orders and design new, innovative and inspiring birds. Perhaps I will be labeled to be not a true blue aviation fan. I don't happen to agree with that but if that is the case so be it! I am glad we got more orders than EADS. I believe that this will continue to be the case since I believe we have a better product. I am not so glad that they delivered more frames than we did. I believe that this will change in the next few years and that will make me happy.

Elvis777,

No offence intended here but... I noticed you using the 'we' very often in reference to Boeing. Unless you've put any effort into Boeing' products or sales, using the 'we' term is very inappropriate. And to be honest, IMO, it sounds pretty ridiculous to.

Quoting Elvis777 (Reply 20):
Is there no one in the european camp

While I tend to prefer Airbus, the European camp sounds a bit to exaggerated IMO. I've always tried to avoid bashing Boeing and will keep doing so.

Quoting Elvis777 (Reply 20):
They have raised the bar but I feel that we have met the challenge rather well and will raise the bar above their reach.

Hopefully Boeing does not share this opinion with you (raise the bar above their reach). Underistimating your competitor is foolish atleast...

Quoting Elvis777 (Reply 20):
it would be foolish to let our hubris get the better of us again by underestimating their products.



SUPPORT THE LEBANESE CIVILIANS
User currently offlinePanAm_DC10 From Australia, joined Aug 2000, 4162 posts, RR: 89
Reply 24, posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 5325 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
COMMUNITY MANAGER

Quoting BoomBoom (Reply 18):
So how many firm orders did Airbus get?

On January 17th, we will know the answer to that question. Until then, Airbus will not confirm the number. So we wait.

Regards, PanAm_DC10



Ask the impossible to achieve the best possible
25 Manni : I noticed... If it appears to be the case. Would you be able to accept that Airbus beat Boeing again with orders and deliveries? Or will you keep spr
26 BoomBoom : That wouldn't work because some planes are configured with more first and business class seats than coach. You wouldn't count a first class seat with
27 N79969 : When it comes to diplomacy or lack of it, you are certainly no better than I. Baseless? Give me a break. Either Airbus is lying or Boeing is lying. B
28 Elvis777 : Hello Manni, let me blame it on the late time where I live but I do take a bit of offense to some of your comments. I freely used the pronoun we and I
29 Leelaw : What about cargo aircraft, how do you factor in those sales? How about using sales value at list prices as a better yardstick for determining relativ
30 HZ747300 : It should not be that hard--if the contract was signed in 2005, then it counts, if not, a great start on 2006.... Anything else is lying.
31 GBan : In a German source (written paper) Forgeard was quoted saying that they missed the target by 10 to 15%, but reached the goal. No idea if this quote i
32 Post contains images Astuteman : You should probably add Mulally + Baseler to that list - I suspect they will be extremely keen to outsell Airbus
33 BoomBoom : Okay--let me rephrase that: how many announced firm orders did the A350 have as December 31? This supposes there were some A350 orders firmed before
34 PanAm_DC10 : No doubt there were more A350 orders firmed in December. It appears that you still miss the point that Boeing update their firm orders website on a w
35 Post contains images Abba : I really do love this one! And perhaps the fierce competition lately has meant that the margins in the lower end of the widebody market is not as fat
36 BoomBoom : Sorry for asking a question, PanAm_DC10. No need to get your undies in a bunch! It appears the answer to my question is 49--a far cry from 180.
37 Atnight : Reading some of the posts here, anyone without a take on either side (like me), finds funny and close to ridiculous how they defend or attack the othe
38 A319XFW : Sorry to nit-pick on an otherwise good post - but from what I have heard/read, the profits on a large aircraft are larger than the profits on a small
39 BoomBoom : If Airbus had 49 firm orders at the end of November then they would have had to firm up another 51+ in December to get to 100+ firm.
40 Leelaw : But for the 787, there would be no A350 at this point in history. Actually, the advent of the 787 has been good for both OEMs, as it has reinvigorate
41 Jacobin777 : true, but its better to sell your product at a lower margin than to have your competitor sell a competing product...of course, there is the law of di
42 N79969 : I do not think it would be accurate to put them in the same camp though. Boeing has been led by engineers for years. In fact, if you look at the last
43 Post contains links and images Keesje : Elvis if have nothing against Boeing. To proof it, is not so hard: Boeing 737 Next Gen Backlog Breakdown http://www.airliners.net/discussions...genera
44 N79969 : Keesje, First, I think it is totally fine to prefer one brand over and another for whatever reasons. It is fine. But you can start all the threads yo
45 Post contains links Leelaw : Actually Keesje, I think both OEM's are adopting production methods that make the most sense for specific programs. Neither has a monopoly on wisdom:
46 Abba : Well that might be true from a historic point of view. However, past is not future! Amen! (And don't forget us - the flying public!) Mama mia - here
47 Scbriml : If I remember correctly, the published 9-month figures for 2005 were something like 6.8% for Boeing and 11.5% for Airbus.
48 PanAm_DC10 : They're in no bunch at all BoomBoom. Nor shall feigning ignorance of the facts on your behalf by claiming that you were just asking a question work w
49 Tifoso : What? Are you saying that margins on widebodies today are lesser than what they were in the past? Can you back up this claim?
50 Elvis777 : Hello Keesje and Abba, Keesje, I guess I am not being clear. I am not claiming that you post anti Boeing material on this forum. You may or may not. I
51 Jacobin777 : I think your right...but with Boeing outselling airbus big time (almost ten fold) in the 777 vs 340 widebody competition, I'll still take the 6.8% (o
52 BoomBoom : They do appear to be bunched to me, why else you would you launch such a childish attack over such a simple question? And they appear to be getting m
53 Airlinelover : While they still may have had a PERSONAL record, they still lost. Only because Boeing puts pride and effort into their planes, while Airbus rushes th
54 Post contains images Tifoso : Count me in, Sir I don't have a problem admitting the fact that I prefer B over A, and would like for them to always be a step ahead of their competi
55 N79969 : Over the line...Way over. That is a very serious accusation particularly when in this industry. I would back yourself up with a source (if one actual
56 Tifoso : While this may be true, let's not jump to conclusions until Airbus have their press conference. There have been conflicting reports in the press; non
57 A319XFW : I know I shouldn't rise to the childish A vs. B bait, but I believe I should put you straight, as I personally have input into the flying safety of a
58 Post contains images Keesje : Elvis I´m afraid I can´t join the leper colony. I do have financial & personal interest in both A & B. I suspect if the Airbus brigade would starts
59 OldAeroGuy : This is the type of statement no one on this forum should make without court room verifiable evidence. An allusion that any Type Certified airliner p
60 Planemaker : I liked your sports fan analogy because it is truly valid and is becoming so apt in industry. Take any major league ball team, like the Astros for ex
61 KJFK31L : Yes, but please acknowledge the outstanding success of BOTH companies. That is what is truly important for this industry, namely, strong signs of its
62 Abba : I can't back this up with solid data. I only tried to warn against believing "as it was so it will be". What should be noticed here is that machines
63 Post contains images Scbriml : Now if only you'd waited a couple of days before posting that!
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