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KLM And The Way They Choose Their Fleet!  
User currently offlineCV990 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 5837 times:

Hi!

KLM has been for me one of those legacy airlines that deal a bit different from other airlines. I like the way they choose their airplanes and sometimes they actually almost "shock" us because we might think they will keep the same airplane family and then suddenly they come out with something new. This is not a recent thing that I noticed but since the prop era KLM was already "messing" around with airplane factories. Take a look to this:

After WWII - KLM had a fleet of DC-3's and DC-4's, next airplane that KLM could order "should be" the DC-6, but KLM get's the L049 and after that it will keep getting most of Lockheed Constellation/Super Constellation family, they will get the L749/L749A in 1947/1948, then the L1049C in 1953, the L1049E in 1954, the L1049G in 1956 and the L1049H in 1958... meanwhile they get the DC-6 in 1948, the DC-6B in 1952 and the DC-6A in 1953. Finnally they will get the DC-7C in 1957... very interesting the coexistance of those really big competitors. We also saw KLM getting the Convair family, the CV240 and the CV340 and then an order for the Vickers Viscount and latter the Lockheed L188 Electra!!!!
When the jet era arrived KLM kept faithfull to Douglas ordering the DC-8, series 30, 50 and 63, also the DC-9 series 15 and 30, and the wide-body DC-10-30 and the bigger Boeing 747-200. When KLM needed to start replacing the Douglas DC-9 I'm sure that a lot of us expected that KLM will carry on with the MD80....but we saw KLM ordering the Boeing 737-300!!! In the middle KLM ordered the Airbus A310-200 and latter the MD11! Then KLM started to look to Boeing and got a almost complete Boeing family, the 737-400, the 737-800 and 900, the Boeing 767-300 ,the 747-300, 400 and the 777-200. When people probably expected that KLM will keep Boeing has a prime supplier here we see again KLM changing and getting the A330-200! Now the MD11 will be the next move by KLM.... any bets on that? The 787 or the A350? I can't tell...but surely KLM will opt for the BEST AIRPLANE! Even if tha shocks us!!!
Regards

16 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineMartin21 From Netherlands, joined Aug 2001, 347 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 5800 times:

Its nice for us (spotters) isn't it !

Martin21



At 30.000 feet, the sun always shines !
User currently offlineEHHO From Bulgaria, joined Dec 2005, 815 posts, RR: 7
Reply 2, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 5517 times:

They do indeed. In my crazy youthful FS98 days, I remember regretting that KL usually ordered new models when everyone else had them already, especially the 772. Eight years ago it was hard to imagine a 772 in KL livery.

Now I know that they were virtually the first to order the 744, and very quick with the 738... but then look at A332!



"Get your facts first. Then you may distort them as much as you please" -- Mark Twain
User currently offlineMauriceB From Netherlands, joined Aug 2004, 2490 posts, RR: 25
Reply 3, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 5487 times:

Now the MD11 will be the next move by KLM.... any bets on that? The 787 or the A350? I can't tell...but surely KLM will opt for the BEST AIRPLANE! Even if tha shocks us!!!
Regards


nope the 737-300/400 will be  Wink

KLM will place a large 737NG order, to replace the 737-300/400 and oldest F-100's. expect this to be a much larger order than the numer of 737-300/400's it will replace since KLM plans to grow 10% every 4 years

it will be hard to say who will replace the MD-11. they think the A330 will be to small and the 777 a bit to big, but says its quite possible one of those will be the replacement

but it will be more likely 787/A350, they planned to order it in 2009, when they have seen them flying etc. but now the slots are getting hard to get for 2012 (year they plan to replace the MD-11) i wouldn't be suprised if we will see a 787/A350 order soon


User currently offlineLamedianaranja From Venezuela, joined Nov 2004, 1246 posts, RR: 20
Reply 4, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 5461 times:

And the regional question is still to be solved. KLC needs to expand. Does KLM order new Embraers, do we get AF's old Fokkers or is there gonna be a huge surprise

Fleet policy over the last years has indeed been 'let's watch how a new aircraft performs before we order it' as to avoid dissappointments.

Thankfully this still means that KL buys brand-new a/c from the factory and does not obtain second-hand planes. It gives a special thrill to enter a brandnew plane, see it sparkling and smell the newness. I suppose it is a good marketing tool too. Passengers feel safer on new a/c.


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Rob van Ringelesteijn



[Edited 2006-01-15 12:22:12]


I wish that all skies were orange and blue!!
User currently offlineCV990 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 5379 times:

Hi!

KLM is for me an interesting "case study" when we see most of the airline fleet be standard either Boeing or Airbus....but it looks that KLM goes well with different models, so what's the secret? Maybe they KNOW EXACTELY what they need and they keep having sucess with that filosophy!!! I was just looking back on time, and comparing the fleet KLM had in late 40's and 50's they had such a nice mixture of Lockheeds and Douglas all over when airlines like Air France, Alitalia, SAS, Sabena, TWA, Pan Am were mainly using the same family of airplanes ( TWA and Air France with Lockheed and the rest with Douglas.. ).
Regards


User currently offlineMEA-707 From Netherlands, joined Nov 1999, 4353 posts, RR: 35
Reply 6, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 5182 times:

Quoting CV990 (Reply 5):
Maybe they KNOW EXACTELY what they need and they keep having sucess with that filosophy!!!

Not exactly, they have dearly regretted many of their fleet decisions.
A textbook mistake was buying the Electra while all the other european competitors got the Caravelle (Lufthansa had the 720B and BEA the Comet and Trident as midhaul jets). To the public, the Electra looked like just another beefed up DC-4 while the Caravelle was all elegance and class, they lost customers big time to competitors like SAS, Alitalia and Air France between 1960-1966.
As faithful Douglas client they ordered 12 DC-10s while not really having that big a role planned for them, so they had to sell or lease out half of them.
Then they ordered 10 A-310-200s to replace the last DC-8s just around the time frequency became more important then capacity within Europe, so they were stuck with overcapacity on short haul and an aircraft not capable to fly to the Caribbean or Kenya without stopover.
Then they were overestimating the MD-11 economics. They like them now but felt sorry for ordering it in the 1990s.
In hindsight they would rather have skipped the A-310, squeezing a bit more out of the DC-8, DC-9 and DC-10 for mid haul flights, and ordered the 767ER as soon as it came out around 1986, maybe even up to 20, making the MD-11 unnecessairy, and then turning them over to a mix of 777s and A-330s in the late 1990s already.



nobody has ever died from hard work, but why take the risk?
User currently offlineJwenting From Netherlands, joined Apr 2001, 10213 posts, RR: 19
Reply 7, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 5156 times:

And a KLM aircraft noone's yet mentioned is the ill-fated DC5 (yes, it exists).
KLM ordered it, I believe took delivery of a few, and then the aircraft was cancelled shortly after.



I wish I were flying
User currently offlineJRadier From Netherlands, joined Sep 2004, 4714 posts, RR: 50
Reply 8, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 5062 times:

Quoting Jwenting (Reply 7):
And a KLM aircraft noone's yet mentioned is the ill-fated DC5 (yes, it exists).
KLM ordered it, I believe took delivery of a few, and then the aircraft was cancelled shortly after.

I believe they were all operated in 'Nederlands Indi�' (Indonesia nowdays) so they weren't really a part of the KLM (europe) fleet.



For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards, for there you have been and ther
User currently offlineKL5147 From Netherlands, joined Aug 2005, 335 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 4995 times:

Quoting CV990 (Thread starter):
I'm sure that a lot of us expected that KLM will carry on with the MD80....but we saw KLM ordering the Boeing 737-300!!!

Don't forget the 6 Fokkers 100's ordered in the late 80's  Wink



"The world is just a click away!"
User currently offlineKLMA330 From Canada, joined Feb 2005, 697 posts, RR: 2
Reply 10, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 4090 times:

CV990,

a well thought out of, intelligent thread about my favourite airline.. welcome to my respected list  Smile

To add to this, KLM seems to still march to the "same drum" which works for them, even now when they're part of a larger company. Could AF leave KL to do its own thing, as it's been doing great for so many years? Will the KLM Blue fly in the skies as it is now for many more years to come? I know it's early to tell, but so far AF seems to be taking a "silent-ish partner" side to the whole take over.

Regards,
Billy


User currently offlineCV990 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 4060 times:

Hi MEA-707!

Sorry but I have to disagree with you regarding the L188 Electra! According to KLM, they had both options, buy the Caravelle or the L188! What they found out was the fact that the L188 could ACTUALLY HAVE the same turn-around that the Caravelle and the difference between the pure jet and the prop-jet was mostly none....with an extra value that the L188 could actually make medium and even long-haul flights ( Middle East and Singapore with some stops )!!!! Also according to KLM they were even superior in performance during winter months with its ability to handle bad weather and icy runways! In addition to that and again according to KLM the Electra fleet exceeded all other KLM types in on time-performance... pretty good hey? So I think KLM did a wise move with the L188.
Regards


User currently offlinePhklm From Northern Mariana Islands, joined Dec 2005, 1198 posts, RR: 2
Reply 12, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 3748 times:

Quoting Lamedianaranja (Reply 4):
And the regional question is still to be solved. KLC needs to expand. Does KLM order new Embraers, do we get AF's old Fokkers or is there gonna be a huge surprise

OK maybe this is a very stupid question; but what about the 717-200?
Doesn't this fit KLM's strategy quit well?
Thanks for clarifting why is does(n't) make sense.


User currently offlineEHHO From Bulgaria, joined Dec 2005, 815 posts, RR: 7
Reply 13, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 3669 times:

Quoting Phklm (Reply 12):
OK maybe this is a very stupid question; but what about the 717-200?
Doesn't this fit KLM's strategy quit well?
Thanks for clarifting why is does(n't) make sense.

That could indeed work well for KL, where it not that Boeing isn't selling them anymore, and would rather have KL order the 736. Just think about it: the DC-9 back in blue!



"Get your facts first. Then you may distort them as much as you please" -- Mark Twain
User currently offlineAR1300 From Argentina, joined Feb 2005, 1740 posts, RR: 3
Reply 14, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 3614 times:

Now I understend why just AF, out of all.I see.  Wink Big grin


Mike



They don't call us Continental for nothing.
User currently offlineMauriceB From Netherlands, joined Aug 2004, 2490 posts, RR: 25
Reply 15, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 3599 times:

Quoting EHHO (Reply 13):
That could indeed work well for KL, where it not that Boeing isn't selling them anymore, and would rather have KL order the 736. Just think about it: the DC-9 back in blue!

why the 736? its way to heavy for KL's regional fleet, and the F-100's are more flexible (turn around times) , thus the engine upgrade programm promises a lot, so no need to replace the F-100's for another 7 to 8 years


User currently offlineCV990 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 3496 times:

Hi!

When I look to KLM L188 Electra operation I imediatelly look to some other US airlines that did the same move, like American, Braniff, Eastern, Northwest, National, PSA and Western... the only one "then domestic" that evoluted to pure jet right away was United, Contiental also used a prop, but the Vickers Viscount. I can see clearly KLM after using the L188 and looking to a short/medium haul airliner they went for the DC-9, natural step of course, and again comparing with these US airlines we saw American going for Bac 1-11 and the Boeing 727-100, Braniff also going for the Bac 1-11 and the Boeing 727-100, Eastern went for the DC-9, Northwest for the 727-100, National for the 727-100, PSA for the 737-200 and Western also going for the 737-200 too. From all these Delta was the only one that went straight ahead from prop to jets with the DC-8 and CV880 and latter the DC-9!!! I'm just talking about US "then" domestic airlines.
regards


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