Sponsor Message:
Civil Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
More AA Business Tactics That I Don't Agree With  
User currently offlineChrisNH From United States of America, joined Jun 1999, 4094 posts, RR: 2
Posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 9655 times:

The Boyd Group states that AA is bullying smaller airports into taking their side on the Wright Ammendment issue. Those that don't will lose service. This isn't idle conjecture; it is actually happening. AA is legendary for bullying, predatory tactics. Anyone who disputes that this is occuring is whistling by the graveyard (or works for AA).

Manchester Airport (MHT) just re-tooled their web site (www.flymanchester.com). In a not-so-subtle dig at AA, the web site comes out on the spalsh page with this: "Granite Staters Should Be Free to Fly to Dallas." With none of their service to lose, MHT officials can happily lob grenades AAs way. I hope other airports follow suit. The guns need to be pointed back at them, and fired. Anyway, it's not as though anyone is bowing at AAs feet these days!

Chris

176 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineDartland From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 643 posts, RR: 2
Reply 1, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 9622 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

That's ridiculous, and equally as bad as what AA is doing.

WN probably has no intention of flying MHT-DAL and is using MHT simply because they are the largest carrier there and can do what they want. Totally stupid. If MHT-Dallas would be a profitable route, then AA would be doing it from DFW. And if WN really wanted to do it, they could do it from DFW also.


User currently offlineIncitatus From Brazil, joined Feb 2005, 4008 posts, RR: 13
Reply 2, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 9597 times:

Quoting ChrisNH (Thread starter):
AA is legendary for bullying, predatory tactics.

Southwest is threatening to stop serving Dallas and move their headquarters if they don't get their way. Is that bullying too?

The real reason behind their drive to repeal the Wright Amendment is that the lower landing fees as Dallas Love save them 30 million USD a year. But that's something Southwest doesn't want you to know.


User currently offlineNateDAL From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 417 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 9577 times:

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 2):

If you were running a company, would you want to keep your headquarters in a city whose political leaders support laws that hurt your business simply to benefit a competetor?

I would not want to stay. WN is completely justified in moving to another city. It is probably too expensive to move, so I don't expect it. I would suggest HOU.

[Edited 2006-01-16 16:45:58]


Set Love Free
User currently offlineAtrude777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 5692 posts, RR: 52
Reply 4, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 9568 times:

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 2):
Southwest is threatening to stop serving Dallas and move their headquarters if they don't get their way. Is that bullying too?

It is a threat of some sort but hey its business too, everyone has done spme type of bullying at work to get their way.

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 2):
The real reason behind their drive to repeal the Wright Amendment is that the lower landing fees as Dallas Love save them 30 million USD a year. But that's something Southwest doesn't want you to know.

I'd simply say, just simple smart business mgmt move and idea.

Quoting Dartland (Reply 1):
That's ridiculous, and equally as bad as what AA is doing.

Is their proof SWA is asking MHT to change their website? Is their proof of AA doing the same to the smaller Airports?

Quoting Dartland (Reply 1):
And if WN really wanted to do it, they could do it from DFW also.

WN really wants to do it, but from DAL, not DFW. Lots of airlines "really want to" do things but if it doesn't make them money, they won't do it. and I am not even going to argue about WN at DFW its been argued time and time again.

Alex



Good things come to those who wait, better things come to those who go AFTER it!
User currently offlineCXA330300 From South Africa, joined May 2004, 1560 posts, RR: 2
Reply 5, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 9553 times:

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 2):
Southwest is threatening to stop serving Dallas and move their headquarters if they don't get their way. Is that bullying too?

Its not bullying. Its annoying whining.



The sky is the limit as long as you can stay there
User currently offlineTxAgKuwait From United States of America, joined Aug 1999, 1803 posts, RR: 42
Reply 6, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 9500 times:

I think you would see a MHT - DAL nonstop, maybe not at first but before too long. I am certain you'd see a couple of PVD - MHT flights.

Under any circumstances you could expect to see some convenient one-stops with no change of planes --- MHT-PHL-DAL or MHT-MDW-DAL. Maybe even MHT-BNA-DAL.


User currently offlineChrisNH From United States of America, joined Jun 1999, 4094 posts, RR: 2
Reply 7, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 9471 times:

Southwest has nothing to do with the MHT web site. But MHT officials are more than happy to take the side of a carrier that has invested (and done well at) our airport over another carrier who believes that MHT isn't worth their while. Southwest has done magnificently at MHT, and I believe MHT ranks near the top of the system in terms of LF.

Anyway, true or not, The Boyd Group believes that AA is bullying smaller airports (and by extension, politicians) into siding with them on the Wright Ammendment.

And let's for the sake of argument consider airports that DO fall in lock-step with AA on this issue. Who's to say they won't lose service from AA anyway? It's not as though AA is in ANY position to 'guarantee' anything, so why side with them??? Loyalty to AA is a one-way street: 'Be loyal to us, but don't ask for the same in return.' The landscape is littered with cities that AA has cast away (or is in the process of). Hello, PVD.


User currently offlineSonOfACaptain From United States of America, joined May 2004, 1747 posts, RR: 6
Reply 8, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 9457 times:

Quoting CXA330300 (Reply 5):
Its not bullying. Its annoying whining.

Huh???? WN is doing the same thing AA is doing.

Come on people, WN is not an angel. They operate just like AA or any other corporation. They don't care about Joe from NY or TX. They care about themselves. Just because they bring you low fares and incredible service, doesn't mean they are always the angel. Wake up to the real business world, where there are no angles.

Quoting NateDAL (Reply 3):
If you were running a company, would you want to keep your headquarters in a city whose political leaders support laws that hurt your business simply to benefit a competetor?

Buddy, a lot of companies do it.

-SOAC



Non Illegitimi Carborundum
User currently offlineChrisNH From United States of America, joined Jun 1999, 4094 posts, RR: 2
Reply 9, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 9422 times:

Quoting TxAgKuwait (Reply 6):
I think you would see a MHT - DAL nonstop, maybe not at first but before too long. I am certain you'd see a couple of PVD - MHT flights.

Not sure if you mis-typed on that MHT-PVD thing; you'll not see any aircraft--ever--going between our two stations. Never has been, aside from United which flew MHT-PVD-ORD when they (UA) were opening up MHT back in the early 1980s. Once MHT was able to support its own nonstops to O'Hare, the PVD stop was dumped.

As for MHT-DAL, I'm under no illusions that such a route would be at or near the top of the list for Southwest if and when the Wright Ammendment crumbles. But on the other hand, such a route WOULD be a winner. No shred of doubt there AT ALL. With Southwest, it never is about how many people want to travel between Manchester and Dallas; it is about how many people want to fly from the northern Boston suburbs and southern NH to a whole bunch of cities in the Southwest network for whom DAL is the best connecting point (San Antonio and El Paso and Albuquerque to name just three).

Chris in NH


User currently offlineAtrude777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 5692 posts, RR: 52
Reply 10, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 9402 times:

Quoting SonOfACaptain (Reply 8):
They operate just like AA or any other corporation.

If WN did it the way AA did, they'd be bankrupt  Wink

Actually, Southwest Airlines does indeed care to make a profit, and will do so at any cost, BUT at the same time they treat their employees just right and does not sacrifice their employees to make a profit, nor their customers/passengers either. SWA really DOES care about their passengers, why did they keep the pillows, and blankets and food on board? If they REALLY wanted to, they could do away those services and claim, high fuel prices, and weight and such caused it. But they did not because they care about their passengers.

Alex



Good things come to those who wait, better things come to those who go AFTER it!
User currently offlineOPNLguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 9384 times:

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 2):
The real reason behind their drive to repeal the Wright Amendment is that the lower landing fees as Dallas Love save them 30 million USD a year. But that's something Southwest doesn't want you to know.

Is SWA paying the same $ per thousand rate that CO is, and AA will be? If the rate is same for everyone, nobody is getting a "special" deal.

It's funny, but since those costs are lower for SWA at Love, it's one of the things that makes it possible to offer lower fares, lower than would be the case if SWA were at DFW, yet some folks still can't seem to fathom why SWA doesn't want to serve DFW.

If you had a business, and you had a choice of an "overhead" cost of $1x at location-A versus $3x or $4x at location-B, which would you choose?


User currently offlineSonOfACaptain From United States of America, joined May 2004, 1747 posts, RR: 6
Reply 12, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 9358 times:

Quoting Atrude777 (Reply 10):
why did they keep the pillows, and blankets and food on board?

1.) Lot's of airlines still have pillows and blankets. I was just on an US A321 where every seat had a pillow and blanket on it.

2.) Food? CO still have food. WN doesn't. They have snacks, which, by definition mean the same thing, but come on man.

Oh, and every airline that makes money cares about passengers. I remember when AA, US, ect. did.

I am not trying to make WN look bad. They are on of the most passenger-caring US airline out there. But they are not a god like a lot of A.net people think they are. They are a profit-seeking corporation, period.

-SOAC



Non Illegitimi Carborundum
User currently offlineSonOfACaptain From United States of America, joined May 2004, 1747 posts, RR: 6
Reply 13, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 9337 times:

Quoting OPNLguy (Reply 11):
If you had a business, and you had a choice of an "overhead" cost of $1x at location-A versus $3x or $4x at location-B, which would you choose?

You realize that that is the sole reason WN doesn't want to move to DFW. Nevermind the other excuses WN puts out, WN only wants the lower costs of DAL. That is what I have been trying to say for the past year.

-SOAC



Non Illegitimi Carborundum
User currently offlineIncitatus From Brazil, joined Feb 2005, 4008 posts, RR: 13
Reply 14, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 9336 times:

Quoting NateDAL (Reply 3):
I would suggest HOU.

I agree and would suggest Houston too.

Quoting Atrude777 (Reply 10):
SWA really DOES care about their passengers, why did they keep the pillows, and blankets and food on board? If they REALLY wanted to, they could do away those services and claim, high fuel prices, and weight and such caused it. But they did not because they care about their passengers.

Come on. If Southwest cared about passengers, they'd have assigned seating instead of stampede boarding. They would have not let out their intention of scrapping service to New Orleans. Did you drink orange koolaid for b-fast?

Quoting TxAgKuwait (Reply 6):
I think you would see a MHT - DAL nonstop, maybe not at first but before too long.

Are you part of the same crowd that says repealing the W.A. will result in just a small increase in number of flights at Love? Your statement is an indication of what will happen to DAL if the cookie jar is left unattended.


User currently offlineAtrude777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 5692 posts, RR: 52
Reply 15, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 9332 times:

Quoting SonOfACaptain (Reply 12):
1.) Lot's of airlines still have pillows and blankets. I was just on an US A321 where every seat had a pillow and blanket on it.

Sure, I used AA as an example since they are number one at STL with SWA number 2, I switched to SWA after flying AA quite a few times, so at STL service wise SWA is better.

Food- CO yes has food but not on flights out of STL because we have NO Mainline, all RJ, and all flights are under 1 hr and 30 minutes, which does not require food like you guys get. Again WN gives more food on STL Flights then we will ever get on AA out of STL unless its a buy on board meal, where we have to pay, WN we don't.

Quoting SonOfACaptain (Reply 12):
I remember when AA, US, ect. did.

WHEN, see my point? they USED to care, and they cared QUITE a bit, I remember TWA doing that and AA's think of your F/A as your Mother in flight. They did care back then, and so did SWA. What makes them different, today SWA STILL cares, AA doesn't, if they did they would keep the service.

Quoting SonOfACaptain (Reply 12):
I am not trying to make WN look bad. They are on of the most passenger-caring US airline out there. But they are not a god like a lot of A.net people think they are. They are a profit-seeking corporation, period.

I agree, they are not a god, no airline is, I have had my bad default with SWA too, if anything WN is the MOST profit seeking corporation of ALL businesses, which is how they are able to be profitable while other airlines are not.

Alex



Good things come to those who wait, better things come to those who go AFTER it!
User currently offlineFlyorski From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 987 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 9326 times:

Quoting SonOfACaptain (Reply 12):
They are a profit-seeking corporation, period.

Every airline is.

AA has used bullying tactics, however so has every other airline at one time or another. To say AA is "bad" because of it is biased and makes no sense. I challenge anyone to find one large airline that has not used bullying tactics to get cheaper rates. It's all about the bottom line.



"None are more hopelessly enslaved, than those who falsly believe they are free" -Goethe
User currently offlineLightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12981 posts, RR: 100
Reply 17, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 9322 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 2):
Southwest is threatening to stop serving Dallas and move their headquarters if they don't get their way. Is that bullying too?

Its bullying too. However, I would make one comment on this: the aviation landscape is littered with the remnants of airlines that tried to compete with AA at DFW. WN going into DFW would be economic suicide. Forget the incentives, those were only for an airline willing to replace DL at DFW. WN will either serve Dallas from DAL or eventually they will have to move their headquarters.

Quoting ChrisNH (Reply 7):
Anyway, true or not, The Boyd Group believes that AA is bullying smaller airports (and by extension, politicians) into siding with them on the Wright Ammendment.

Since the Boyd ground specializes in consulting to small airports... they would have the pulse on this. However, I don't blame AA. Politics is nasty and will always be so. The reality is that AA is going to drop a bunch of small cities. Its not because of the Wright amendment, its due to declining yeilds reducing the viability of more and more markets.

Quoting SonOfACaptain (Reply 8):
Wake up to the real business world, where there are no angles.

 checkmark  Oh, some companies are better to work for than others... but no angels.

Quoting NateDAL (Reply 3):
If you were running a company, would you want to keep your headquarters in a city whose political leaders support laws that hurt your business simply to benefit a competetor?

Good point. While some companies are stuck in that situation, history says that eventually the "oppressed" company will relocate or fade from the scene.

Unfortunately, this thread is going to deteriorate into a LCC vs. Legacy bit... Personally, since I fly to Dallas a few times per year I would love to see LUV set free. Oh, I'd probably still fly AA, but it would be nice to have lower last minute air fares to Dallas. (I could visit relatives with a bit less planning.)

One question: how long until WN will be strong enough to take on AA at DFW? If WN could open up DFW to a dozen or more of their own "fortress cities," I think they could do ok. Right now, WN is strong in quite a few places, but I can't think of a dozen fortress cities.

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlineAtrude777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 5692 posts, RR: 52
Reply 18, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 9305 times:

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 14):
Come on. If Southwest cared about passengers, they'd have assigned seating instead of stampede boarding. They would have not let out their intention of scrapping service to New Orleans. Did you drink orange koolaid for b-fast?

Come on, do your research an overall majority of SWA passnegers ARE JUST fine with the no assigned seating. SWA continues to do research with its passengers, conducting surveys to see what the PASSENGERS want. Right now, they are quite content with no assigned seating.

As for new Orleans, EVERY AIRLINE did so. Others came back to win passengers, WN did it for PROFIT. WN will make money doing so. Recently WN added more flights BACK to MSY and in fact have chosen MSY as their location for the Conference meeting, so actually yes WN does care--link here...

http://phx.corporate-ir.net/phoenix....l-newsArticle&ID=803579&highlight=

please note In 2006, Southwest Airlines will support New Orleans with more than just new flights. In February, Southwest Airlines will become one of the first corporations to plan a major meeting in the city when it sends nearly 300 of its Employees to New Orleans for an annual three-day marketing conference and community outreach effort.

"Southwest Airlines recognizes that tourism and convention business has been, and will continue to be, a major stimulus for the New Orleans economy," said Barrett. "We hope that other corporations and organizations also will choose New Orleans as a destination for their conventions and conferences."


Alex



Good things come to those who wait, better things come to those who go AFTER it!
User currently offlineOPNLguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 9292 times:

Quoting SonOfACaptain (Reply 13):
You realize that that is the sole reason WN doesn't want to move to DFW. Nevermind the other excuses WN puts out, WN only wants the lower costs of DAL. That is what I have been trying to say for the past year.

I'm not an executive at SWA (and not privy to discussions on that level) so I can't attest to it being the "sole" reason any more than you can.

Suffice it to say that any business in its right mind wants to keep its overhead costs low--that's basic Business 101.


User currently offlineChrisNH From United States of America, joined Jun 1999, 4094 posts, RR: 2
Reply 20, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 9290 times:

I think profit-seeking is THE most difficult exercise for airlines. I think they all 'seek' it; but because of things that can't be managed in the short term (union contracts, fuel costs), they are unable to achieve what they seek...namely, profits. So, instead, they go after pillows, soda, blankets, and all these little things and try to bankroll a profit on them.

User currently offlineIceTitan447 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 9284 times:

Quoting Atrude777 (Reply 4):
Quoting Incitatus (Reply 2):
Southwest is threatening to stop serving Dallas and move their headquarters if they don't get their way. Is that bullying too?

Sounds like what they said to DEN in the past, they are back now. So just let them stop whining and it will all get better.


User currently offlineSonOfACaptain From United States of America, joined May 2004, 1747 posts, RR: 6
Reply 22, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 9261 times:

Quoting Atrude777 (Reply 15):
What makes them different, today SWA STILL cares, AA doesn't, if they did they would keep the service.

That is exactly my point. Airlines care about the passengers when they make money, not losing millions and billions of it.

Quoting Atrude777 (Reply 15):
if anything WN is the MOST profit seeking corporation of ALL businesses, which is how they are able to be profitable while other airlines are not.

Exactly.

Quoting Flyorski (Reply 16):
I challenge anyone to find one large airline that has not used bullying tactics to get cheaper rates. It's all about the bottom line.

I second that challenge.

Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 17):
WN going into DFW would be economic suicide.

Buddy, WN themselves have said they could operate profitably at DFW. They could operate profitably against anybody. WN is not afraid of going into DFW. AA is afraid of WN coming into DFW, they just happen to be more afraid of WN operating nationally from DAL.

Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 17):
Oh, some companies are better to work for than others... but no angels.

Exactly, although I am aiming more towards that some companies are "nicer" than others, but there is no angels.

-SOAC

[Edited 2006-01-16 17:58:31]


Non Illegitimi Carborundum
User currently offlineSonOfACaptain From United States of America, joined May 2004, 1747 posts, RR: 6
Reply 23, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 9229 times:

Quoting OPNLguy (Reply 19):
so I can't attest to it being the "sole" reason any more than you can.

When I say sole, I mean that is the only one worth fighting for. Other small reasons my stem from this "sole" reason, and other excuses that look like reasons may also stem from this "sole" reason, but non-the-less, there is only one "sole" reason WN doesn't want to move to DFW. And that is the costs.

-SOAC



Non Illegitimi Carborundum
User currently offlineOPNLguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 9166 times:

Quoting SonOfACaptain (Reply 23):
When I say sole, I mean that is the only one worth fighting for.

In any event, it's your personal opinion of "sole" since neither of us get to go to high-level meetings...

Quoting SonOfACaptain (Reply 23):
...reason WN doesn't want to move to DFW. And that is the costs.

...and this is "wrong" as a business rationale because why?


25 Post contains images 2H4 : Don't be so sure, OPNL....we saw how many expert forum members were in the cockpit of 1248. There must be dozens attending board meetings at HDQ. 2H4
26 OPNLguy : Good point...
27 Ripcordd : Come on they are both doing what the can to protect their airlines bullying or not they will do what they can do same goes for WN they do the same thi
28 Tango-Bravo : The shenanigans of AA in the case of their apparent attempts to coerce smaller airports into opposing repeal of the WA are nothing more than yet anoth
29 Tango-Bravo : Then why has Southwest been able to remain profitable for 32 consecutive years? And yes, they have as many union contracts and the same suppliers of
30 SonOfACaptain : Haha, I knew this was coming. Did I every say there was anything wrong with it? My point is why should everybody take the side of WN. AA and DFW is l
31 SonOfACaptain : Yet you still comment on things. We all do. Don't you dare finger me out. Heaven forbid somebody talk badly about WN. Come on, this is what A.net is
32 SonOfACaptain : He said difficult, not impossible. All the things he said were true, and WN has mastered them. That is why WN has been able to remain profitable for
33 2H4 : Talking and making personal judgements is one thing. Professing one's opinion as fact is quite another. The forums should be about the exchange of id
34 Socalfive : Well, WN is a tough organization and competes fiercely in the marketplace as the marketplace (especially these days) is survival of the fittest. Howe
35 CXA330300 : Whining is worse than bullying, because at least bullying you're actually reacting to a situation........ Not to go on a philosophical turn.....,
36 ScottB : What's missing from this is exactly how Southwest intends to make more money. They do it by rationalizing fare levels across the board, making it mor
37 BigB : Jet Blue? Air Tran? who esle, America West?
38 Jwb20 : I would agree that AA is being a bully, but its all for competition. AA im sure wants Southwest out of Dallas because then more business for them. The
39 BigB : They would move HDQ, but no way in hell they will move ops!
40 Cjpark : Do you actually buy your own tickets or is Mommy and Daddy paying the cheapest route to get you where you think you should go. Let us know when you s
41 Post contains images SonOfACaptain : Oh thank you for clarifying that for me. You see, I was under the impression that your posts did nothing to improve the quality of the thread. Did yo
42 BigB : Whoa there buddy! If you gonna talk his opinion down like that, you might just want to call your own opinions garbage. It doesn't matter who buys who
43 2H4 : Thanks for that. Very mature. First, what money, and second, obviously no. 2H4
44 Cjpark : In the real world money talks and the rest walk. All I am asking for is a little clarity of where the opinions are coming from.
45 BigB : Hey man, someone had to step up to ya challenge. Besides, I think they should repeal the WA. To benefit the consumers around the Dallas area.
46 Post contains images OPNLguy : What exactly is the lie? Southwest cannot fly wherever it wants to out of Love Field because of the Wright Amendment. Have your circular arguments do
47 SonOfACaptain : Like your posts are any better... First, didn't you pay to join A.net? Secondly, that is all I have seen you do. Wouldn't WN coming to DFW benefit th
48 Cjpark : But they can fly anywhere they want to from DFW just like the rest of the airlines. Again what is it that makes WN so special that they can demand di
49 BigB : Not really, because DAL is closer to some folks vs DFW. Its like the situation I'm in. I have to rely on others to get to the airport because I have
50 BigB : Not a damn thing makes WN special, however, with the repeal of the WA, other airlines would have rights to move into DAL like they aready do. It goes
51 Jetdeltamsy : I don't consider it bullying. AA is desperate to protect their DFW. If it truly does become unprofitable for AA to serve some of these second-tier cit
52 OPNLguy : You're in a loop... I'll leave you to circles...
53 Tornado82 : Horrible analogy so your point is voided by it. Your analogy would only be valid if PVD and BDL were just a handful of miles apart... or the airport
54 Tornado82 : Hell yeah it's bullying. But when Southwest does it they get supported because they can do no wrong on A.net, from most members, and most moderators.
55 BigB : Alright Mr. Tornado, You have a point. I from Houston (before I ended up in CT). IAH was a closer option for me. I have been to Dallas quite a few ti
56 Socalfive : God, it's no wonder I keep getting banned from here. 10-4 on that, and they WILL as AA already is re-establishing a presence in DAL. Not a good examp
57 BigB : It is a good example, both complete against each other in the similar area. I'm referring to AA having its ground at DFW and WN haing its ground in D
58 Tornado82 : This is NOT a Wright Thread... see the current Wright thread for a Wright battle. I think they could co-exist fine. Move over to DFW. Southwest, LONG
59 Tornado82 : Philadelphia... where airlines schedule 45 minutes (or more) of taxi time into each departure. I don't think DFW's lines are nearly as long as that..
60 MDorBust : You are right. Current ground movement time at DFW isn't on the order of 45 minutes. It's usuall about 30-35. All those runways and simultaneous appr
61 SonOfACaptain : It isn't. I fly out of DFW all the time, and the only thing that can take up time, is taxing to the other side of the airport. And waiting for planes
62 Tornado82 : I've waited 30 at Midway more than once as well... on days when the primary airport of ORD's traffic is interfering. Just like secondary DAL traffic
63 Post contains images 2H4 : Ha, you've certainly got me on that one! Last time I believe a Cirrus sales rep, by the way... Amazing how emotional people get on here. 2H4
64 MDorBust : No it doesn't. Look at the approach templates again. DFW traffic and DAL traffic do not interfere. They use seperate approach vectors and altitudes s
65 N1120A : People can't even buy a through ticket to DAL, which means they can't connect on another WN service.
66 DALNeighbor : What makes DFW so special that it is the only airport protected from a competing airport in Wright Amendment legislation? IAH isn't protected from HO
67 Post contains images 2H4 : But airports don't compete....airlines do. At least, that's what you'll hear from DFW/AA/Wright supporters. 2H4
68 Tornado82 : Funny... not what everyone from pilots to residents have said on here.
69 MDorBust : Too bad the approach templates don't agree with you.
70 OPNLguy : Unless you have some kind of tally of where every A.net member stands on this aspect of the WA issue, your use of the word "everyone" seems to be ass
71 Incitatus : What makes Denver International so special that they protected it from Denver Stapleton? What makes Austin Bergstrom so special that they protected i
72 Socalfive : Gotcha! I stand corrected. No, it doesn't. Philadelphia has the one commercial airport, it's the only game in town if one wants to serve that market,
73 BigB : Why make WN move when US govt when they can just lift restrictions off of DAL and allow both airports to operate in a similar environment such IAH/HO
74 Tornado82 : OPNL you've obviously crossed over the line now to questioning me on my education and knowledge in my degreed field here even though I've never once
75 BigB : At the time Denver decided to build the new airport, Denver Stapleton was just at overcapacity, however, this was at the time that THREE major Airlin
76 OPNLguy : That's not what I did at all... All I'm suggesting to you is to not use your knowledge of weather and the accident in the same sentence so as to infe
77 Socalfive : But then you DID anyway, but, we all have... The topic was AA tactics where Manchester is concerned but from about reply 8, WN has been taking it on
78 BigB : Yeah, its pretty bad. As a CO fan, I seriously think AA has nothing to worry when DAL lifted from the WA. Dallas would turn out to be in a similar si
79 Tornado82 : If I'm going to have my name trashed, I should at least get one paragraph to defend myself and if you notice I specifically said I had no knowledge t
80 Post contains images Stirling : For the ninth year in a row, FORTUNE magazine recognized Southwest Airlines in its annual survey of corporate reputations. Among airlines, Southwest c
81 Tornado82 : As a soon-to-be PPL student at that airport, I don't want their 35mph taxiing going on here. Hundreds or maybe even thousands of them, they're called
82 Tornado82 : PHL has ABE and ACY as close to center-city PHL as MHT/PVD are to BOS. Both airports had the infrastructure ready and waiting. But like I said, I'm g
83 Incitatus : Yes it can be. Just like Microsoft and Wal-mart can be companies from hell. Everybody does want lower costs. But Southwest doesn't want to pay for th
84 Vegasplanes : No, Tango-Bravo means years, WN has lost money in an individual quarter (the last being in 1991), but has been profitable on a full year basis for ov
85 ScottB : I dunno. If weather closes BOS, should AA be allowed to divert to PVD or MHT, even though AA hasn't paid for the infrastructure at MHT and won't be p
86 MDorBust : If the people at DFW want to stay out of jail they sure as hell will let any plane that has declared an emergency land any where it's pilot pleases.
87 SonOfACaptain : Uh, yes, and I already answered that, when I said there was nothing wrong with it. Ooookkkkkaaaaayyyy....that had nothing to do with my comment. Oooo
88 OPNLguy : Well, for one, folks can buy a ticket DCA-ABC-XYZ, i.e. to a destination beyond the perimeter. You can't do that with the Wright Amendment in place n
89 SonOfACaptain : I am sure if the W.A. doesn't get change, that will change. -SOAC
90 Post contains images Rdwelch : Keeping in mind that I'm not taking sides in this "debate", but I believe that the Wright Amendment restricts flights from DAL to other bordering sta
91 Ckfred : Rdwelch: There are limits on flights out of DCA and LGA. Basically, flights can't fly more than a certain distance, although I don't have the exact re
92 OPNLguy : Hi, The original states were NM, OK, AR and LA. In 1997, the Shelby Amendment added KS, MS, and AL. In late 2005, MO was added via a transportation a
93 Rdwelch : Ckfred and OPNLguy, thanks for the feed back, your response was greatly appreciated. This brings up another question, are the restrictions on LGA and
94 Socalfive : Huh? Are you saying that if the WA doesn't get repealed, the restrictions will? That would take forever for each 'interested' state to petition congr
95 SonOfACaptain : They apply to everybody. No, I was talking about connecting tickets. -SOAC
96 HZ747300 : Is it still true that Southwest Airlines has never laid anyone off in their history? That alone makes it a remarkable company in this day and age of '
97 DALNeighbor : Show me the Federal legislation that protects DEN and AUS from any other airport? Neither of those airports is restricted to only 9 states nor are th
98 SonOfACaptain : They are restriced, period. -SOAC
99 DALNeighbor : You asked: and: Is the answer to your question. The point of Wright Amendment restrictions is not to serve the flying public but is punitive in natur
100 Rdwelch : I guess what I'm asking is what was the basis for the restrictions, not whom they applied to. But thanks for the reply. Gus.
101 SonOfACaptain : Ah gotcha. My bad. I think what they were intended for was avoiding the heavy transcon planes that came in. (Although that is not an issue anymore) O
102 Rdwelch : SOAC, no problem. Thanks for the reply. I figured it was due to a/c size given the length and proximity of the runways for LGA and DCA. Gus
103 ScottB : Actually, the restrictions were largely meant to force some of the traffic to use the larger, newer airports that had been built further from the cit
104 SonOfACaptain : Ah, finally the person to correct me. Thanks. Ironically, this only further helps my argument. Now the W.A. and LGA/DCA restrictions are looking more
105 Rdwelch : ScottB, thanks for the info. Gus
106 ScottB : Well, except that: (1) The perimeter rules at LGA and DCA never prohibited through ticketing/one-stop flights like the Wright Amendment. (2) The peri
107 PlanesNTrains : Man, you must have really pissed them off! The issue is DFW vs DAL, not DFW vs PHL. Well, they let B6 land at LAX even though they don't fly there, s
108 BigB : Your comment right here buddy is GARBAGE. If a WN aircraft needed to land at DFW due to an emergency, its gonna land at DFW. BTW, don't bring aircraf
109 LMP737 : Did you actually use those pillows or blankets? Considering the sort of use they get I would be a bit hesitant about using them.
110 Atrude777 : CJpark- I in fact pay every damn ticket I fly on. Is my opinion now worth more?
111 Rdwelch : Does anyone have any links to the impact studies for the repeal of the Wright amendment? I'm trying to get all sides on this, and I'm getting a some g
112 DALNeighbor : I believe you can download them from the following sites: setlovefree.com keepdfwstrong.com - I think this site has both the DFW study and the AA stu
113 DALNeighbor : I believe you can download them from the following sites: setlovefree.com keepdfwstrong.com - I think this site has both the DFW study and the AA stu
114 Post contains images MattRB : Come now.. logic has no place in the WA debate
115 Rdwelch : DALNeighbor, thanks for the links, I appreciate it. Gus
116 Atrude777 : Well put, WN had to land an aircraft at ORD too.
117 Post contains images Texan : I don't really care what kind of boarding procedure is used. With the open seating I can usually find a quiet, empty row near the back of the airplan
118 Atrude777 : Best, post, ever. Yes, 32 YEARS of profitabilty and lord knows how many quarters, 132 sounds right though I found something saying 117TH quarterly Di
119 Tornado82 : Before I go insane over seeing any more people destroy simple arithmetic as we know it... which is also saying alot for their credibility in ANY post
120 Post contains links Atrude777 : straight from southwest.com Southwest Airlines Declares 117th Consecutive Quarterly Dividend DALLAS, Nov. 17 /PRNewswire-FirstCall/ -- Southwest Airl
121 Post contains images Rdwelch : Guys (gals), the latest posts were appreciated. I didn't realize the restrictions on DCA were so...well... restrictive before. When I was in the milit
122 Texan : It is now a little over 33 years. 33 x 4 = 132. Approximately 132 consecutive profitable quarters. Texan edit: They have issued a dividend for 117 co
123 PHLBOS : Slight clarifications here: 1. WN was a much smaller airline in 1979 than it is today. Most people outside of Texas, New Orleans and/or not involved/
124 Post contains images Texan : Rep. Wright was the House Majority Leader from 1979-1986 or 87, at which point he became Speaker of the House up until he resigned due to purported e
125 ScottB : Assuming they post a profit for the just-concluded quarter, as anticipated, the string of profitable quarters will actually reach 59 quarters. Southw
126 Atrude777 : Oh by the way, I did reply earlier about yes I do in fact pay for my tickets so yes my opinion should count. So if what you are saying is true, then
127 SonOfACaptain : Just like the Shelby Amendment and WN now flying to MO. What is your point? Yes I do. As long as I don't get sick or die from it, who cares? I am onl
128 Texan : Just that they are the same tactics. And every airline and every industry participates in it. AA's people like to pretend that this sort of lobbying
129 SonOfACaptain : Haha, that is exactly the same point as mine. Are we arguing over the same thing? -SOAC
130 Texan : Sounds like we might just be right here! Texan
131 CentPIT : Trust me, getting gates in PIT is no problem for WN. There are plenty of empty ones that could use some flights. There is even one more now that Flyi
132 DALNeighbor : Thanks for the clarification.
133 Tornado82 : And even at that, they could shove the US-X Beeches and Saabs back down to E if gates ever actually became an issue at PIT again. I don't think we'll
134 Boeing7E7 : There is ample Environmental Law and Federally mandated airport design and capacity threshold requirements to keep anyone from building a passenger s
135 Post contains images Lightsaber : Texan, first well written post with good facts. I agree, WN's current DAL traffic just wouldn't work at DFW due to the taxi times. Thus, any "new tra
136 Boeing7E7 : The DFW average scheduled time is 27.4 minutes, the average actual is 17.4. At DAL the scheduled is 16.3 and actual is 8.7. While significant, it dep
137 Incitatus : Given that you seem to understand airport design and also is familiar with Dallas Love, would you care to elaborate on some its design shortcomings?
138 Stirling : In the words of Comic Book Man....."Best. Statement. Ever." This single fact alone is what, to me, invalidates ANYTHING AA might have to say on the s
139 Texan : Well, gosh, Incitatus, I can't think of any incident where an airplane has hit any cars at DAL, can you? Since you seem obsessed about this topic, ho
140 MDorBust : In an odd irony, between DAL and DFW... only DFW has had an incident in which a car has been struck by an aircraft. Perhaps you should think of a new
141 SonOfACaptain : Are you talking about the L-1011 crash? If so, then that is not even relevant. -SOAC
142 MDorBust : Was it a plane hitting a car? Oh wait... you only like bad overrun comparissons. Too bad DAL has the proper overrun protection that MDW didn't have.
143 SonOfACaptain : It was a plane that when through wind shear! It had nothing to do with the airport, this it isn't relevant. I think this is a stupid argument, and I
144 Ckfred : Here are the dumb questions. First, how many commerical operations are there annually at DAL? Second, what is the maximum capacity of DAL, in terms of
145 Tornado82 : Yeah I had admitted that error in the deleted post earlier, before anyone had even corrected me, but I'll be damned if I'm apologizing again when the
146 ScottB : It has everything to do with the airport; there wouldn't have been an L1011 hitting cars on a freeway if the airport weren't there! A certain AAirlin
147 BigB : Or that time when the CO MD80 slid off the runway at LGA into a Lake awhile back. I could go on and on, but this is why I susgested ol boy earlier ab
148 Post contains images Tornado82 : By your twisted logic, ScottB, a USAir (pre -ways, actually partially the impetus for -ways) 737 randomly fell out of the sky due to a full rudder def
149 LMP737 : And who's to say that the person using it before you didn't have the flu. Or that it spent and good portion of the previous flight on the floor. You
150 Tornado82 : That's your perogative... why chastise people for something as simple as using an airline pillow/blanket. To each his or her own, so who cares?
151 LMP737 : It's not chastising people, it's a friendly bit of advice from someone who has seen how those pillows and blankets are used.
152 Cjpark : Ok if we have to explain it to you again. Each of those airports represent a different situation compared to DFW and DAL. That is none of those airpo
153 SonOfACaptain : Oh dear god, it's a pillow. -SOAC
154 BigB : Ok, I don't see this thread getting anywhere, I am officially withdrawing myself from these types of debates. For my final word, I think the WA will b
155 Texan : Believe it or not (you obviously don't), Alex provides accurate information often. He knows what he's talking about even though he is young. Maybe if
156 Post contains images Atrude777 : Shall i print out my bank statements showing all the airlines I have paid for and flown on? I have flown on SWA-7 times surprisingly, AWA-2, TWA-mill
157 Tornado82 : Yeah, but ORD is still over capacity despite MDW... DFW isn't nearly as messed up as ORD because it had room to grow and a better layout. Without MDW
158 Boeing7E7 : Come on now, you know better than that. It's what is best for Southwest and it's passengers on this issue, not how it impacts the rest of the planet.
159 Post contains images SonOfACaptain : It isn't impossible, just wouldn't be beneficial to everybody. The industry does not evolve around WN you know. -SOAC
160 Cjpark : Congress is the only body that has control since it approves approprations for the FAA and the Department of Transportation. Personally I would like
161 DALNeighbor : Ok, so it would make one facility more efficient at the expense of another facility. There is plenty of cpacity to add a plethora of additional fligh
162 Texan : I could care less which airline or airlines operate out of DAL. If it was AA who was hemmed in there, I'd still be fighting for the repeal. It isn't
163 Tornado82 : No... it would make the Metroplex' Airspace AS A WHOLE more efficient. DAL is a parasite of the arrival/departure patterns/capacities to the metrople
164 DALNeighbor : In order to create the magnificent world of optimal efficiency, you would have to destroy DAL. I'd say that is at the expense of another airport. How
165 Tornado82 : Yes, but if it makes the entire system more efficient, so be it. That was the original intention with the opening of DFW decades ago. It's not making
166 DALNeighbor : The original intent of DFW was not to shut down DAL. If there is only ONE AIRPORT for commercial aircraft then THE WHOLE SYSTEM is ONE AIRPORT.
167 Tornado82 : And your point? If it still serves MORE traffic than the current DFW+DAL arrangement, then it was a move for the better.
168 DALNeighbor : My point is: After you have buried a commercial airport, what are you left with? The same number of ops that you had before the expense of shutting d
169 Tornado82 : Wrong again... a WN forced into DFW would then go gangbusters with routes all over the country. The metroplex would probably gain 100 round trips, an
170 DALNeighbor : Contrast that statement with the following logical analysis: Cue the Kool-Aid posts and personal attacks.
171 Tornado82 : Wow... you've gone from elevating your airline from deity status to comparing it to lowly Vanguard? Whatever serves your vendettas, right? Southwest
172 DALNeighbor : Let's see if I can sum your position up. You don't like WN because they came to PIT and PHL and you percieve that as trying to eliminate air service
173 Tornado82 : And once again there's where you're wrong, as has been the theme. I'm looking for what's best for our nation's air system. DAL takes capacity away fr
174 DALNeighbor : Doesn't every airport take capacity away from the system? There is a finite amount of air out there and if any airport is using it for operations the
175 Tornado82 : You're just like that Southwest employee you buddy up with... personally attack someone then claim it wasn't one. I'll go back to wallow in my mud an
176 Cjpark : Does duplication of services and wasted taxes mean anything to you? WN should be flying from DFW. There is no need to maintain DAL for the benefit of
Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
Any AA Mainline Stations That Don't See MD-80 posted Sat Feb 25 2006 02:48:55 by 727LOVER
Routes For New AA Business Class? posted Wed Aug 23 2006 06:01:36 by SanDiegoFlyer
Heard Of More AA Employee Cuts At Ticket Counters posted Sat Jul 29 2006 03:40:17 by ASTROJET707
AA's Business Class! posted Mon Jul 24 2006 22:18:30 by Thering
New AA Business Class - First Picture Here posted Wed Jun 14 2006 20:36:48 by Fbgdavidson
New AA Business Class Launched Today? posted Thu Jun 8 2006 17:38:44 by AeroWesty
Cocktail? That Will Be $5 With A Credit Card..... posted Sun Apr 30 2006 13:32:15 by N587NK
More AA Spring Schedule Changes @ STL posted Sat Feb 25 2006 05:22:33 by STLGph
Europe Business Class: Just Don't Understand This! posted Mon Feb 13 2006 19:11:27 by RootsAir
More AA Cuts: MCI-LGA; STL-TUL S80 posted Thu Jan 19 2006 23:58:43 by MAH4546