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UPS To Have 24 744s And Acquire More MD-11s  
User currently offlineDIA From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 3273 posts, RR: 27
Posted (8 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 11392 times:

Spoke with my neighbor just this weekend. He is a UPS 741/2 pilot (lives in Denver, but based out of the hub out east!)(Long commute Wink). I struck up a great little conversation concerning UPS's next a/c purchases and acquisitions:

After discussing the recent UPS order for about a dozen new 744s from Boeing...he told me UPS is planning on buying about twelve more existing 744s and converting them to cargo config....some of these are in the desert currently.

He also told me that UPS will be acquiring more MD-11s, although he did not supply me with a figure of how many. I did ask how UPS could do this since (as I believed) that all MD-11s are basically spoken for
(because they are a hot commodity for freight airlines)...he told me UPS could acquire more because they can pay cash for them, unlike many other companies. I think UPS is making about $3 billion a quarter, so I can believe him on that I guess.

Anyhow, he has proven himself a good source (for UPS airline/airliner info) for me in the past, in terms of reliable info...so either roll with it or be a skeptic...that's up to you...just thought I'd let you know about these interesting nuggets of info.


Ding! You are now free to keep supporting Frontier.
56 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineFlyf15 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (8 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 11330 times:

Wow, that will end up to be quite an impressive widebody fleet.

A300
A380
B747-100/200/400 (although, surely, the 100/200s will be retired)
B767-300
MD-11

With sizable number of each...


User currently offlineGhost77 From Mexico, joined Mar 2000, 5237 posts, RR: 51
Reply 2, posted (8 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 11295 times:

And as more M11's make it to the fleet sure some DC10s will be replaced by those new.

ghost77 APM



Ricardo Morales - flyAPM - ¡No es que maneje rapido, solo estoy volando lento!
User currently offlineMD90fan From Bahamas, joined Jul 2005, 2931 posts, RR: 7
Reply 3, posted (8 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 11178 times:

An ex. Air Namibia bird is being converted to freighter fro UPS at SIN right now  tombstone 


http://www.devanwells.blogspot.com/
User currently offlineAKelley728 From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 2194 posts, RR: 5
Reply 4, posted (8 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 11171 times:

Quoting Ghost77 (Reply 2):
And as more M11's make it to the fleet sure some DC10s will be replaced by those new.

Uhh, UPS does not operate DC10s. Are you thinking of UPS DC8s? If you are, those aren't going anywhere. Are you thinking of Fedex and their DC10s? If so, they aren't going anywhere either, especially since Fedex is converting a number of them to MD10s.

Douglas aircraft are built to last!


User currently offlineWjcandee From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 5366 posts, RR: 22
Reply 5, posted (8 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 11171 times:

He is correct about the MD11s, insofar as UPS bought at least 4 and possibly 5 of the MD11s that were on lease to DL, and on whose leases DL had still been paying a pretty penny even though they were parked (and of which 3 were subleased to World Airways). When DL rejected the way-above-market leases in bankruptcy court, the lessors were forced to find a market-rate purchaser or lessee. They ended up selling at least 4 to UPS. Apparently, the plan is for World to fly their 3 for some period of time, the outer limit of that period being the date that each can go in for conversion. Apparently, there are very few slots available at the places that can do the conversion, so they will be wfu and converted in an orderly manner over the next few years. That is basically the case with the 747-400BCF line (and the IAI 744SF line) as well.

A caution: air cargo is a very cyclical business. There are already some rumblings that higher oil prices (actually higher energy prices overall, as higher oil means a higher competitive market rate for coal, even if it is plentiful) and higher interest rates are having a braking effect on growth in Asia, and "anticipated" (i.e. wishful thinking as to) air cargo growth rates are probably way overstated.


User currently offlineDalb777 From United States of America, joined May 2005, 2192 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (8 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 11106 times:

Quoting AKelley728 (Reply 4):
If so, they aren't going anywhere either, especially since Fedex is converting a number of them to MD10s.

What exactly is an MD10? Is it a DC10 upgraded to MD11 characteristics?

Also, does UPS operate any other narrowbodies besides the 727, 757, and DC-8?



Geaux Tigers! Geaux Hornets! Geaux Saints! WHO DAT!!!
User currently offlineEyeLN From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 56 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (8 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 11071 times:

Quoting AKelley728 (Reply 4):
A caution: air cargo is a very cyclical business. There are already some rumblings that higher oil prices (actually higher energy prices overall, as higher oil means a higher competitive market rate for coal, even if it is plentiful) and higher interest rates are having a braking effect on growth in Asia, and "anticipated" (i.e. wishful thinking as to) air cargo growth rates are probably way overstated.

Bingo....that's what's so striking about the business plans of the big THREE and the various scenarios for how the looming struggle over global express will be settled among UPS, FX and DHL.....Who can FIRST marry reliability and cost (none of which have done so) on a global scale emerges victorious.....


User currently offlineBennett123 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2004, 7816 posts, RR: 3
Reply 8, posted (8 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 11055 times:

I understand that an MD10 is a DC10 with MD11 cockpit.

User currently offlineUnattendedBag From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 2342 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (8 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 11009 times:

Quoting DIA (Thread starter):
After discussing the recent UPS order for about a dozen new 744s from Boeing...he told me UPS is planning on buying about twelve more existing 744s and converting them to cargo config

I spoke with a UPS DC-8 pilot about a month ago and he said the same thing.



Slower traffic, keep right
User currently offlineBoeing Nut From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (8 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 10889 times:

Makes me wonder why they don't go for the 747-8F as well. Probably acquisitions costs.

User currently offlineWhiteHatter From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (8 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 10780 times:

Quoting Boeing Nut (Reply 10):
Makes me wonder why they don't go for the 747-8F as well. Probably acquisitions costs.

acquisition costs are literally everything in the freight world. You don't necessarily need the latest and fanciest aircraft to do the job, and Boeing would have cut UPS a nice deal on the 744F.

It does not preclude the 748F from the future UPS fleet though. Maybe in the future when it's proven and there are secondhand examples about or deep discounts. The A380F is somewhat different as it offers huge volume, whereas the 747 is more about capability. UPS ships much more in the way of smaller items so the A380 fits nicely into their planning for trunk operations.


User currently offlineLuisca From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (8 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 10777 times:

and what about the 777-200LRF? It would be perfect for UPS and they have pushed boeing for years to make one.

User currently offlineJeffry747 From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 963 posts, RR: 2
Reply 13, posted (8 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 10771 times:
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Quoting Dalb777 (Reply 6):
Also, does UPS operate any other narrowbodies besides the 727, 757, and DC-8?

No they do not. Nor do they have any plans on getting any.



C'mon Big B, FLY!
User currently offlineJeffry747 From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 963 posts, RR: 2
Reply 14, posted (8 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 10751 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting DIA (Thread starter):
recent UPS order for about a dozen new 744s from Boeing

Unless I missed something, the official order was for 8 744's, with the first delivery sometime next year.



C'mon Big B, FLY!
User currently offlineEyeLN From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 56 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (8 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 10564 times:

Quoting WhiteHatter (Reply 11):
...acquisition costs are literally everything in the freight world. You don't necessarily need the latest and fanciest aircraft to do the job...

that's one reason why UPS cash flow worldwide is about to take it on the chin at the hands of DHL......


User currently offlineGhost77 From Mexico, joined Mar 2000, 5237 posts, RR: 51
Reply 16, posted (8 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 10511 times:

Quoting AKelley728 (Reply 4):
Uhh, UPS does not operate DC10s.

Oh shit!   Don't know why I confuse UPS with FDX..!! Soo sorry. Well MD11s could certainly be a Dc8s replacement in the long term!!

Sure Douglas planes are built to laaaaaast forever!!! Ask NW or JR!!!

ghost77 APM

[Edited 2006-01-17 03:45:18]


Ricardo Morales - flyAPM - ¡No es que maneje rapido, solo estoy volando lento!
User currently offlineLotsamiles From United States of America, joined May 2005, 323 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (8 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 10401 times:

Quoting WhiteHatter (Reply 11):
Makes me wonder why they don't go for the 747-8F as well. Probably acquisitions costs.

UPS has plans to make the 744F and 744SF into a 34 pallet configuration, matching the 747-8F. This can be done by loading a transverse lane of pallets next to a longitudinal lane of pallets, as is being done on the FDX/UPS A380F's on the main deck. This nullifies most of the 747-8F advantage, with the exception of fuel burn, of course. Given equal pallet postions and UPS's package density, they likely don't need the additional payload offered by the 747-8F.

If UPS goes with 744SF's to supplement the 744F's when the slots become available, they will be able to acquire similar aircraft for their needs for a fraction of the cost.

Regards,
Lotsamiles


User currently offlineCandid76 From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2005, 743 posts, RR: 4
Reply 18, posted (8 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 10065 times:

Why have UPS retired their 721s? Didn't they spend significant sums putting new engines on them so they would last longer than original spec 721s (which they haven't in many cases, FedEx included)? I would have thought they could find uses for these in other parts of the world not just in the US, rather than parting them out in Roswell.

User currently offlineWjcandee From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 5366 posts, RR: 22
Reply 19, posted (8 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 10009 times:

Quoting Candid76 (Reply 18):
Why have UPS retired their 721s? Didn't they spend significant sums putting new engines on them

The 727-100QFs were flying around Christmas 2005, maybe just for the rush, but they were definitely flying. They were indeed re-engined with great pride by UPS, which touted their reduced noise footprint at the time.


User currently offlineMBJ2000 From Germany, joined Dec 2005, 426 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (8 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 9961 times:

A little bit off-topic - but I'm new to this forum - why is the MD-11 so appealing to the freight airlines?

Quoting DIA (Thread starter):
He also told me that UPS will be acquiring more MD-11s, although he did not supply me with a figure of how many. I did ask how UPS could do this since (as I believed) that all MD-11s are basically spoken for
(because they are a hot commodity for freight airlines)...he told me UPS could acquire more because they can pay cash for them, unlike many other companies. I think UPS is making about $3 billion a quarter, so I can believe him on that I guess.



Like most of life's problems, this one can be solved with bending -- Bender Unit 22
User currently offlineMauriceB From Netherlands, joined Aug 2004, 2491 posts, RR: 25
Reply 21, posted (8 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 9910 times:

Quoting Flyf15 (Reply 1):
A300
A380
B747-100/200/400 (although, surely, the 100/200s will be retired)
B767-300
MD-11

guess you forgot the A380  Smile


User currently offlineMEA-707 From Netherlands, joined Nov 1999, 4360 posts, RR: 35
Reply 22, posted (8 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 9877 times:

Quoting Wjcandee (Reply 19):
The 727-100QFs were flying around Christmas 2005, maybe just for the rush, but they were definitely flying. They were indeed re-engined with great pride by UPS, which touted their reduced noise footprint at the time.

They fly with a handful but dozens of others have been wfu in the last 4 years. I thought it would be the perfect narrowbody for them with their quieter RR Tay engines and they'd fly them til at least 2015. Probably their performance was disappointing or the costs of a 3 man cockpit, or old 727s are more maintenance hogs then the DC-8s, can anyone ask their UPS friends for an inside view on what went wrong with the 727?



nobody has ever died from hard work, but why take the risk?
User currently offlineN328KF From United States of America, joined May 2004, 6491 posts, RR: 3
Reply 23, posted (8 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 9592 times:

Quoting Lotsamiles (Reply 17):
UPS has plans to make the 744F and 744SF into a 34 pallet configuration, matching the 747-8F. This can be done by loading a transverse lane of pallets next to a longitudinal lane of pallets, as is being done on the FDX/UPS A380F's on the main deck. This nullifies most of the 747-8F advantage, with the exception of fuel burn, of course. Given equal pallet postions and UPS's package density, they likely don't need the additional payload offered by the 747-8F.

So...uh...why couldn't you do this same arrangement on a 747-8F?



When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' T.Roosevelt
User currently offlineLotsamiles From United States of America, joined May 2005, 323 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (8 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 9438 times:

Quoting N328KF (Reply 23):
So...uh...why couldn't you do this same arrangement on a 747-8F?

I suppose they could, likely UPS had this option in front of them and chose the 744F (and perhaps 744SF per accounts here). I also understand that Boeing did not want to make the change in ULD configuration and thus UPS will be doing it post-delivery using third parties.

Regards,
Lotsamiles


25 UAMAYBACH1239 : This is what puts UPS in the drivers seat, they hedge their fuel and pays cash for most if not all purchases, they move most parcels in the 48 states
26 FlyCaledonian : Think you'll find that if you look again you'll see the A380 in that list!
27 NASOCEANA : Yeap! They remove the Flight engineer to make it a two person cockpit.
28 Broke : UPS has orders for 8 747-400F's, currently operates 18 MD-11F's, has 3 MD-11's currently being modified to freighters, and has contacted for an additi
29 Aogdesk : Sounds like a DHL employee.... I'm amazed at the sheer number of DHL customers that are downright unhappy with their service. Seems as if they drop t
30 DCrawley : Like said before, FX operates the DC10, MD10, and MD11.. and they aren't gettin' rid of any DC10's. I hear they're hiring for the right seat on the D
31 EyeLN : Really? Hmmm...there were some hub integration problems, and the 11 new regional hubs (in addition to the current 12(?)) that are critical to improvi
32 Geg2rap : DHL's biggest problem is the contracting of all deliveries. For example, I live in the twin cities. Palm sent me a warranty exchange next day last Th
33 Gigneil : Massive 91t uplift and good range, or great range at parcel density. N
34 FX1816 : What attack ad did UPS run??? If anyone has to worry though it would be FX. UPS is sooooooo far ahead of the competition but FX is just around the cor
35 KC135TopBoom : They had some B-727-100QFs come through DFW this week, including at least 1 last night. Perhaps they have an offer from smaller carriers (isn't USA J
36 Gigneil : How you figure? They just firmed up the order last month. N
37 EyeLN : I can't find the streaming video but the thrust of the ad is this: UPS provides great service, but the other guy just has a new ad agency...it actual
38 DIA : I did touch on the A380 with my neighbor. He mentioned that they (UPS) were able to cancel the A300 orders directly (or mostly) due to the fact that
39 EyeLN : Without a doubt this is ABSOLUTELY true.....and it gets turned around as new facilities come online or the game is over for DHL. My bet is that they
40 Wjcandee : Well, as an actual DHL *customer*, I can say the following: (1) Never ever had a package misdelivered or delayed, ever; (2) their ground service is 1
41 DIA : What do you mean Your Mileage May Vary...?
42 Wjcandee : Call 1-800-CALL-DHL and tell them that story, with the airbill number. I guarantee that you'll have it in your hands tomorrow.
43 Wjcandee : What I mean is that almost everyone my age has a story about how some delivery company dropped the ball. I hear people say that UPS Sucks because of
44 Lotsamiles : I doubt UPS does much nose loading but it is nice to have the operational flexibility in they want to enter new markets or if the have the one or the
45 EyeLN : Your Experience (with DHL) May Be Different....
46 FX1816 : Yeah if you ever have problems with packages being delivered just call the 800 number, it will get taken care of then. I have independant contractors
47 EyeLN : Is this in some measure the price DHL pays for consolidation and letting go of its ground network in favor of Airborne's? A vitally important observa
48 WhiteHatter : Plus it's a McDonnell Douglas. Built like a tank by the boys at LGB and built to last, just like all other DC Jets.
49 Wjcandee : DHL's ground "network" couldn't compete with Airborne's in terms of potential volume, and given how hard it has been to integrate the sort, going wit
50 EyeLN : Wjcandee, as usual, an extraordinary reply...Your investment in answering my questions is much appreciated. For those of us associated with ILN/Wilmi
51 Wjcandee : That's a very savvy observation, and may explain some of the hubris on the part of the originally-DHL folks. However, given that the surviving compan
52 Jeffry747 : UPS is actually planning to use the nose door feature to load outsized shipments, not to mention the ability to load/unload the plane faster. AT SDF,
53 747Loadmaster : Only problem is a JT-9D is 115 inch high and the nose door is only 96 inch high.
54 Lotsamiles : You will be happy to know that new or newly converted 747's have much better cargo handling systems that will move an engine pallet without any peopl
55 Jeffry747 : So a JT-9D won't fit in the hold under the upper deck section of the aircraft? That is gonna royally suck!
56 747Loadmaster : Yes, it can only be loaded AFT of pos 5 and 18 (EL and ER).
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