BoomBoom From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Posted (9 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 15143 times:
Aboulafia also said Airbus needs to win several blue chip orders for its planned A350. Even though Airbus received 87 firm orders for that plane in 2005, only one customer, International Lease Finance Corp., would be considered a top-tier customer. It ordered 12 planes.
Aboulafia recalled how Boeing, in the early days of 787 sales two years ago, announced an order from Primaris. The planned Las Vegas airline still does not exist.
Airbus has too many A350 orders from airlines such as TAM Linhas Aereas, which has ordered 10, Aboulafia said.
"It's all fluff," Aboulafia said. "They need a Singapore or an Emirates."
N79969 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (9 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 15043 times:
I agree with his reasoning. His poor choice of words was too blunt for a newspaper interview though.
If Boeing counted the Chinese 737 order using the Airbus method, it seems they would have won the unit count as well as the dollar count. I am not sure why Boeing did not raise the point but I am glad they did not. It would be petty.
But I say let Airbus enjoy its moment. If they want to count that claim a win over Boeing, then so be it.
ETStar From Canada, joined Jan 2004, 2103 posts, RR: 7
Reply 5, posted (9 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 15037 times:
A report/story that is quite expected to come from the Seattle PI, Boeing's manufacturing homegrown paper, which is very pro Boeing and has a large readership of Boeing employees... At any rate, an order is an order, does not matter where it came from, as at the end of the day, both manufacturers look at the gross numbers...
Nirvarma From New Zealand, joined May 2005, 110 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (9 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 15021 times:
Interesting article. I guess those who feel Aboulafia has a bias towards airbus will have more ammunition.
I did find the following interesting though.. The Chinese government in 2005 also announced that it would buy 150 jets from Boeing. Baseler said Boeing counted 50 of those as orders in 2005 from six airlines. The remaining 100 should be booked this year once the airlines have signed contracts, he said.
BoomBoom From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (9 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 15020 times:
Quoting Gkirk (Reply 1): Every customer should surely be treated the same way and not on different tiers?
This is not about how Boeing or Airbus treats their customers. It's about whether the A350 is a viable competitor to the 787. Sure, the A350 had a good first year, but that was the "low hanging fruit." Can they get the stuff on tree tops?
No he is not. He is ultimately right. Some customers are more valued than others because by choosing your product, they raise the profile of your product. Companies such as QF and SQ are premier airlines and Airbus is (rightly) bragging that it will supply their flagship airplane.
Far from it actually. In his line of business being so quotable and frank is a plus rather than a minus. I daresay he deliberately makes such provocative statements to ensure that he gets printed. Furthermore, sticking his neck out like that is perceived as supreme confidence in his assertions helping to ensure that his clients will be willing to put up the moolah for the Teal Group's products. Nice job if you can get it, really.
Of course, if he is proven wrong more often than correct will eventually make such clients unwilling to pay up. The fact that he's been around for a while and the press seeks out his comments suggests he's batting better than the average a.nutter.
Cruiser From Canada, joined Apr 2005, 1001 posts, RR: 7
Reply 10, posted (9 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 14958 times:
Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 4):
will be interesting to see what happens if SQ, EK go Boeing...but there are others, lots of others actually....
SQ will likely go Boeing whereas EK is still in the 'could go either way' category. There are a few more blue chip customers, but many of them won't be ordering for a few more years which will allow Airbus to really get their act together.
Leahy on Per Seat Costs: "Have you seen the B-2 fly-by at almost US$1bn a copy? It has only 2 seats!"
DfwRevolution From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 1013 posts, RR: 51
Reply 11, posted (9 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 14948 times:
Firmed, booked orders are anything but fluff. The A350 is anything but fluff.
What is true is Airbus could use a strong, blue-chip customer that firmly validates the A350 is a legitimite 787 competitor.
Boeing has these major customers on-board with the 787:
- Air India
- Air Canada
- Japan Airlines
- All Nippon Airlines
- Korean Airlines
Airbus has these major customers on-board the A350:
- US Airways
Signing Aeroflot, Aer Lingus, LH, and other strong candidates and winning either/or the EK and SQ order may be what Airbus needs to accomplish this. Losing both EK and SQ would be a horrible mark of (lack of) confidence in the A350 program. It would years for Airbust to recover momentum if Boeing won both those orders.
EK and SQ are crucial strategic orders in the coming months.
Trvlr From United States of America, joined Feb 2000, 4430 posts, RR: 20
Reply 12, posted (9 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 14920 times:
I wouldn't go so far as to call orders from TAM, TAP, and Finnair "fluff". While not huge airlines, they have proven business models. Nevertheless, the A350 certainly needs "an Emirates" to inspire more confidence, not to mention make the it profitable in the first place.
As with the Primaris 787 order, I would be most worried about orders from the likes of ALAFCO, Bangkok Airways or Kingfisher. Ditto USAirways (but not for the same reasons). Banking on too many airlines/organizations which have yet to prove their worth in the A350 market is risky.
AA737-823 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 6015 posts, RR: 12
Reply 13, posted (9 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 14918 times:
I think he's right- for the A350 to be considered a valid aircraft, some blue-chip airline will have to order it.
BY THE SAME TOKEN, I seem to remember Boeing booking several no-name airlines (okay, maybe LOW-name would be better) early on. Granted, ANA launched, and they're big. A lot bigger than... Air Europa. But Blue Panorama? First Choice? Yeah, they're viable, but they're not big names like Air France or British... neither of which have placed orders for the 787 to this day.
So, yes I agree, but I think it also applied to the 787 at one point, before the big guys (CO, NW, etc) came in.
Who's ever heard of Air Europa anyways? Come to think of it, Finnair, Qatar, and US are the only respectable airlines on the A350 list. And my putting US on the list of 'respectable' is... kind of me.
Jacobin777 From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 14968 posts, RR: 59
Reply 14, posted (9 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 14873 times:
Quoting Cruiser (Reply 10): SQ will likely go Boeing whereas EK is still in the 'could go either way' category. There are a few more blue chip customers, but many of them won't be ordering for a few more years which will allow Airbus to really get their act together.
well..if Boeing does go they way of the 787-10 (which seems highly likely), I would think that EK will go with Boeing..they have been badgering Boeing since 2004 and they have been rather consistent in 2005 about Boeing building the it, and I think thats part of the reason as to why they didn't order the A350......
CX747 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 4482 posts, RR: 5
Reply 17, posted (9 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 14835 times:
Actually, this gentleman works for the TEAL group which basically looks over the aircraft manufacturing world and reports on it. Mr. Aboulafia has been around for several years and his opinion is highly respected.
[Edited 2006-01-19 02:37:25]
"History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or timid." D. Eisenhower
PlanesNTrains From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 5969 posts, RR: 28
Reply 18, posted (9 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 14822 times:
Quoting ETStar (Reply 5): A report/story that is quite expected to come from the Seattle PI, Boeing's manufacturing homegrown paper, which is very pro Boeing and has a large readership of Boeing employees...
I'll take your word for it that you've read the PI on a regular basis, but I'll just say this: Both the PI and the Times have been very willing to trash the local companies, be it Boeing, Microsoft, Alaska Airlines, etc. in the name of being "above bias". In the end, some would say that they are actually tougher on these companies than some other more distant publications.
Suffice it to say, if you think the local papers are giving Boeing a pass on anything, your IMHO mistaken. They will post the good news, but they will also post the bad.
Kaitak744 From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 2429 posts, RR: 3
Reply 19, posted (9 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 14781 times:
Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 18): Suffice it to say, if you think the local papers are giving Boeing a pass on anything, your IMHO mistaken. They will post the good news, but they will also post the bad.
Yes, I remembering them reporting the orders at the Paris airshow and how Airbus got more. It is really not a bias newspaper.
N79969 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (9 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 14685 times:
USAirways is a good name but the terms of the deal are not real sweet for Airbus. Basically Airbus lent HP/US $250 million last year with one of the conditions being a 20 aircraft order 6 years down the road. That's not quite money in the bank.
TAM, TAP, Finnair are not bad airlines...that is not what he is saying. He is not judging airlines. Rather he is assessing the quality of A350's market position relative 787 based on the size of the customers and orders. Clearly no one would dispute that Lufthansa is a far more important customer to Airbus than Finnair or Druk Air or whatever. When they buy, they buy lots and the planes are seen in most corners of the planet.
Jacobin777 From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 14968 posts, RR: 59
Reply 23, posted (9 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 14677 times:
what I found interesting was Leahy saying that Boeing had only sold 45-50 (whatever the number was) when the 787 was launched (thus no big deal with weak A350 sales)....but there are two BIG differences..
1)right now, air carriers do have the choice between two next-generation aircraft, where as when Boeing launched the 787, a carrier didnt' really have a choice of a competing product.....the A330 is a great plane, but its not a so-called "next generation" plane which touts the efficiency of better engines and composites to the extent the 787 and A450 do...
2) the BIGGEST factor here is oil....back when the 787 was introduced, oil was in the $30's/barrel, now its in the $60's/barrel...and yet sales of the A350 haven't ramped up to reflect this....
thus, I think yet once again, Leahy is off the mark with his statements........
Leelaw From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (9 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 14632 times:
Quoting CX747 (Reply 17): Mr. Aboulafia has been around for several years and his opinion is highly respected.
Wasn't Aboulafia a severe critic of Boeing during the Condit Administration? His comments, like those any other "analyst," should be taken with a grain of salt, but I don't think he brings any bias towards a particular OEM to the table.
From Seattle PI article:
"...Countered Boeing's Baseler:
"Even if the A350 goes toe to toe with the 787, what are they (Airbus) going to do for 300 seats and above ...
"The headline today is that Airbus beat Boeing again in orders. But at the end of the day, a month or two from now, everyone will have forgotten the headline and will be writing about what Airbus has to do to shore up their poor performance in widebodies."
Seems like Baseler wants to match some of Leahy's trash-talk at yesterday's Airbus press conference.
IIRC, when questioned about missing his "200 orders, ummm...I mean 200 orders and commitments [that little gaff was quite amusing]," by the end of 2005 forecast for the A350, didn't Leahy say something akin to:
We've got 172 "orders and committments" at a point when our competitor had only 64, they've got P.R., we've got backlog?
: Air Europa is a solid airline in Europe. Based in Spain. They codeshare with CO on some transatlantic routes.
: Having been a regular reader of the Seattle PI for almost twenty years, I agree with PlanesNTrains assessment. Airbus partisans who accuse the Seattl
: Abouidiot could call himself. Oh My God!! if even Randy Baseler, Boeing's vice president of marketing is less fanatic than this guy called Aboulafia.
: Or they will get the deal of a lifetime on the A350, which would not surprise me at all. As the number of big candidates for the 787/A350 dwindles in
: Biggest misconception in business. You treat big customers like gold, because they have leverage and resources to be picky. You treat small customers
: I missed this. Could you please elaborate on this? How many orders and commitments did Boeing dispose for 2006?
: I do not think anyone including Aboulafia would argue that Air Europa is a bad airline. I am sure it is great. So it Midwest Express apparently. That