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LA To Back Perks To Discourage Use Of LAX  
User currently offlineLaxintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 24327 posts, RR: 47
Posted (8 years 3 months 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 8058 times:

The county Board of Supervisors officially recommended Tuesday that the city of Los Angeles and its airport agency create incentives to encourage air carriers to fly out of airports other than LAX.

The motion by Supervisor Mike Antonovich aims to reduce congestion at Los Angeles International Airport and on neighboring freeways while also encouraging Los Angeles World Airports to take advantage of the region's other, underused airports, Antonovich said.

Last week the county joined the cities of El Segundo, Inglewood and Culver City, and other plaintiffs in agreeing to settle a lawsuit that opposed the city of Los Angeles' planned $11 billion modernization of LAX. Tuesday's motion is an effort to start over fresh, said Lori Glasgow, Antonovich's airport deputy.

Antonovich's motion recommends incentives that have been used at other airports across the country, Glasgow explained. For instance, LAWA could reduce the taxes and fees paid by airlines for gas, parking, rent and landing fees at Ontario, Van Nuys and Palmdale airports, she said.

Offering a guaranteed number of flights out of outlying airports, and subsidizing the cost of the flights if there were not enough passengers, could also give air carriers the needed stability to move into a different airport, she said.

Still other incentives could include a free shuttle from the Van Nuys park-and-ride to the Palmdale Airport, or subsidizing the cost of security officers to operate metal detectors at airports other than LAX, the motion suggested. Helping to pay for security or cargo improvements at outlying airports could also help, the motion said.


The entire article can be viewed at;
http://www.dailybreeze.com/news/articles/2216822.html


From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
65 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineKRIC777 From United States of America, joined Jun 2002, 277 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (8 years 3 months 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 8035 times:
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Well, I was on business in the LA area over the weekend and flew out of ONT yesterday....the joint was an absolute ghost town at midday...no crowds, no traffic Much more convenient than battling the 405 or 105 traffic getting into LAX...especially if your in the eastern half of the LA basin.

User currently offlineSFORunner From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 324 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (8 years 3 months 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 8000 times:

Quoting Laxintl (Thread starter):
The county Board of Supervisors officially recommended Tuesday that the city of Los Angeles and its airport agency create incentives to encourage air carriers to fly out of airports other than LAX.

The cheapest incentive is to leave TBIT and the rest of the facilities as-is and let them deteriorate.

What's the traffic split between international pax (connecting, terminating, or originating) vs domestic pax at LAX?

If this is a large number, it's an overly simplistic view to force flights to other airports in order to reduce net traffic.


User currently offlineCommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11132 posts, RR: 62
Reply 3, posted (8 years 3 months 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 7998 times:

Typical politican's response: rather than fixing capacity problems and encouraging growth in the free market and trying to respond proactively to what consumers want, let's artificially tinker with the market and hurt one of our biggest economic assets in the process. Stunning, simply stunning.

User currently offlineJacobin777 From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 14968 posts, RR: 60
Reply 4, posted (8 years 3 months 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 7958 times:

ok..a little bit far-fetched...maybe somone knows better...but why couldn't LAX expand outwards........? its been done to a certain extent in Japan and China (HKG)............

$11 billion does get lots of gravel and dredging equipment.....



"Up the Irons!"
User currently offlineLaxintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 24327 posts, RR: 47
Reply 5, posted (8 years 3 months 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 7895 times:

Quoting Commavia (Reply 3):
Typical politican's response: rather than fixing capacity problems and encouraging growth in the free market and trying to respond proactively to what consumers want, let's artificially tinker with the market and hurt one of our biggest economic assets in the process. Stunning, simply stunning.

I am a true capitalist, however am pragmatic at the same time. Accordingly, I feel the proposal is a rather good one.

As part of the modest expansion of LAX which was approved last month, the city and county must do something to encourage usage of other regional airports. LAX simply cannot continue to absorb unchecked future demand even with the approved growth plans.
As such economic incentive could go a long way in helping shift travel patterns to other airports in the region. I also suspect LAWA will ensure LAX sees significant upward movement of its fee structure to further provide a disincentives to airlines and ultimately the consumer to shift away.

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 4):
ok..a little bit far-fetched...maybe somone knows better...but why couldn't LAX expand outwards........? its been done to a certain extent in Japan and China (HKG)............

Will never be done. There are a myriad of environmental issues which would never be overcome. As is, even slight modifications within the airfield property line on the Westside of the airport has had to contend with issues such as protecting endangered blue butterflies that make parts of the airport a home!



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineFA4UA From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 812 posts, RR: 20
Reply 6, posted (8 years 3 months 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 7895 times:

This is just a manifestation of a larger infrastructure problem in SoCal... The LA area is decades late in creating a viable train/subway network which would take the burden off the freeways and lighten traffic in the surrounding areas. The current light rail and train network is a joke. For me (who lives in North Hollywood) to drive to LAX takes nearly an hour to go 17 miles. To take the Red Line which is not too far from my house to light rail down to LAX takes nearly double that and encompases two transfers!

What a mess... but the weather is great!
FA4UA



The debate continues... Starwood or Hyatt... which is better
User currently offlineSkyHarborsHome From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 273 posts, RR: 2
Reply 7, posted (8 years 3 months 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 7877 times:

Flew from ONT yesterday and heading to LAX tomorrow. While getting in and out of Ontario is a breeze, I still love seeing all the big birds parked at LAX.


Fly CHD!
User currently offlineAeroman62 From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 158 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (8 years 3 months 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 7791 times:

ONT is a gem, LAX is a crowded dump - it is inevitable that traffic will move to ONT, what's stopping a JetBlue or Air Tran from grabbing the under utilized gates now at ONT and adding service where it makes sense.

On the other hand I flew two flights into ONT this week, from LAS and to OAK, the first was 90% full, the second was 2/3rds empty, so maybe demand isn't there.


User currently offlineLaxintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 24327 posts, RR: 47
Reply 9, posted (8 years 3 months 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 7720 times:

The modern new facilities at Ontario are indeed dying to see more use.

Overtime the airport will naturaly become more and more popular considering the Inland Empire (Riverside-San Bernardino Counties) is the fastest growing region of California.
Ontario is also is quite convenient for many of those whom reside on the Eastern parts of LA County also.

The airport currently handles about 7 million passengers whiles its design capacity was for 12million. LAWA also has a masterplan design which could bring the airport capacity comfortably to 20million. The current top airline at Ontario is Southwest carrying near 50% of the airports passengers.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineCentrair From Japan, joined Jan 2005, 3598 posts, RR: 21
Reply 10, posted (8 years 3 months 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 7664 times:

Maybe they need to make it so that all those airports are connected by a rapid transit system.

Cut the amount of traffic going in and out of LAX by allowing people to park at another airport, and ride to LAX. Maybe even allow a person to make a transfer between airports.

But in the end the idea has merit. LA is, I believe, the second largest city in the U.S., yet it only really has 1 airport that can do the job. ORD has two, NYC has 3, and Frisco has two. Hell Dallas and Houston have two each. And all get good use. LA needs something. Was at LAX a few years back...man I know barns that more modern and clean.



Yes...I am not a KIX fan. Let's Japanese Aviation!
User currently offlineEchster From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 399 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (8 years 3 months 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 7629 times:

I believe in a free market but if this is about suggestions, why not start with the international flights. Say, for instance, any international flights going east and north fly from ONT, while west and south fly from LAX. I live near ONT and think it is a very nice - if not under used - airport.

User currently offlinePanAm747 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 4242 posts, RR: 9
Reply 12, posted (8 years 3 months 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 7617 times:

Oh dear...another chapter in the Cuckoo's nest that is southern California airport politics.

SNA can never grow. BUR has it written in the city charter that no new construction of any type can ever be done. LGB is slot controlled. ONT is a great facility but too far out for most people. El Toro was offered for free and turned down.

Now LAX's neighbors want it to downsize. Exactly where are people supposed to go for flights? BUR? LGB? SNA? San Diego? Bakersfield? Las Vegas? Santa Barbara?

I always pray our grandchildren will forgive us when our airports are slot-controlled and fares are exorbitant. "Why couldn't they make any hard choices back then?" they will ask. Wish I had an answer.



Pan Am:The World's Most Experienced Airline - P(oor) S(ailor's) A(irline): San Diego's Hometown Airline-Catch Our Smile!
User currently offlineWilax From United States of America, joined Jun 2002, 465 posts, RR: 3
Reply 13, posted (8 years 3 months 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 7571 times:

Quoting PanAm747 (Reply 12):
I always pray our grandchildren will forgive us when our airports are slot-controlled and fares are exorbitant. "Why couldn't they make any hard choices back then?" they will ask. Wish I had an answer.

AMEN!!!

This kind of narrow self interest infuriates me. It is just plain prejudice. People think all airports are a huge imposition until they need to fly somewhere. Most planes today are so quiet that they are rarely noticed. It is the definition of hypocracy to oppose something simply because it may inconvenience you rather than the objective right-or-wrong of the issue itself.


User currently offlineLGBFltTrainer From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 100 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (8 years 3 months 4 days ago) and read 7513 times:

While ONT is a really nice facility, it will never take hold as a legitimate option, simply because getting there is way too difficult. Both the I-10 & Hwy 60 are miserable freeways on a good day (which is rarely).

BUR could be a nice alternative for domestic traffic, but the terminal is antiquated and unsafe by FAA standards. Plus, the city of Burbank will not be building a new terminal there for at least 10 years, due to NIMBY-itis.

LGB...as previously mentioned is slot controlled and that number (41) will never be raised, simply because the residents of Long Beach are extremely vocal about it...similar to BUR.

SNA has been given approval to expand, but they have limited space to do so...meaning that the growth there will be slight.

VNY...will never be commercial, because it's already swamped with GA traffic.

PMD...another fantasy that will not become reality. The distance is way to far to accomodate LA...the travel in good traffic. From LAX, it's approximately 75 miles (which in SoCal could mean up to 3 hours). Not a fun proposal.



Overt enthusiast...like that's a BAD thing?
User currently offlineElal106 From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 975 posts, RR: 4
Reply 15, posted (8 years 3 months 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 7441 times:

LGBFLTTrainer is absolutely correct. Especially with ONT. For someone living outside of LA then yes ONT may be an excellent option. However, someone like me living in LA it sounds quite far fetched to drive at least an hour away to fly out of ONT. Without traffic on the 405 it takes 45 minutes just to get down to LGB. LAX is still the most convenient option for me.

User currently offline2travel2know From Panama, joined Apr 2005, 3580 posts, RR: 4
Reply 16, posted (8 years 3 months 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 7317 times:

Quoting Aeroman62 (Reply 8):
ONT is a gem, LAX is a crowded dump - it is inevitable that traffic will move to ONT, what's stopping a JetBlue or Air Tran from grabbing the under utilized gates now at ONT and adding service where it makes sense.

ONT needs to do something about their International Arrivals Terminal openning hours. Mexican airlines can't fly there because when they plan to land, there's nobody there to attend them.



I don't work for COPA Airlines!
User currently offlineAirlineAddict From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 419 posts, RR: 1
Reply 17, posted (8 years 3 months 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 7269 times:
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ONT needs to do some PR work with folks in the L.A. basin. The last time I was at ONT was pre-new terminal. No jetways, semi-outdoor baggage claim, etc. If the population knew there was a modern terminal there, that might help shift traffic.

On the other hand, I finally flew on JetBlue from LGB. Talk about a dump, and yet it was packed. Low fares and great service always brings the traffic.


User currently offlineD950 From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 493 posts, RR: 2
Reply 18, posted (8 years 3 months 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 7210 times:

Quoting LGBFltTrainer (Reply 14):
While ONT is a really nice facility, it will never take hold as a legitimate option, simply because getting there is way too difficult. Both the I-10 & Hwy 60 are miserable freeways on a good day (which is rarely).

Spot on, plus the car rental companies instituted some nonsense surcharge to the tune of $20 a day, so ONT suddenly is no longer an alternative unless you have business in the inland empire.



Resting on your laurels is a synonym for flirting with disaster
User currently offlineLTBEWR From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 12884 posts, RR: 12
Reply 19, posted (8 years 3 months 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 7159 times:

Perhaps LAX should become more like JFK and mainly become an international and long haul domestic O&D airport, shifting most domestic to other airports. ONT could be get some international charter traffic and expand domestic service to/from cities in the western USA flights. LAX is still going to be the main origination and connection airport for many to Asia, Europe and long haul domestic and international services in the Americas for the anticipated future and should be narrowed to that.

User currently offlineN62NA From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 4256 posts, RR: 6
Reply 20, posted (8 years 3 months 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 7119 times:

Quoting FA4UA (Reply 6):
The LA area is decades late in creating a viable train/subway network which would take the burden off the freeways and lighten traffic in the surrounding areas. The current light rail and train network is a joke.

How true!

The entire LA area had a fantastic network of streetcars (the "light rail" of the first half of the 20th century) from the 1900s through the 1950s. Of course, as the auto became more popular, usage of the streetcars dwindled and I believe it was General Motors that convinced LA County to tear up all the rails by the 1950s and switch to buses.

I have several old US Geological Survey maps of the LA basin - one is from 1923, one from 1954 and another from the 1960s and it is just fascinating to see the expansion of the rail network up until 1954, followed by their disappearance starting in the 1960s.

To this day, the city is still in the process of removing the remnants of the old streetcar lines (drive on Santa Monica Blvd near Century city and you'll see), when what they should be doing is rebuilding them.


User currently offlinePgtravel From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 446 posts, RR: 3
Reply 21, posted (8 years 3 months 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 7064 times:

Quoting Aeroman62 (Reply 8):
ONT is a gem, LAX is a crowded dump - it is inevitable that traffic will move to ONT, what's stopping a JetBlue or Air Tran from grabbing the under utilized gates now at ONT and adding service where it makes sense.

One thing that's stopping them is the rather high landing fees at ONT. They have a new terminal out there that needs to be paid for, so it is not cheap. Remember, B6 went into ONT before LGB, but when they couldn't get a better deal on landing fees, they focused growth on LGB instead.


User currently offlineSRT75 From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 257 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (8 years 3 months 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 7035 times:

Classic LA politics. The ONLY viable option for LA is LAX. This has been proven over an over again. ONT makes no sense for business travellers or connecting pax. Palmdale did have limited commercial service a while ago, and that never went anywhere. Burbank can be weight restricted in the summer, and the termainal is antiquated. Long Beach is a joke. Santa Ana is good for Disneyland and Orange County, but the strict pax limits preclude any meaningful expansion.

To ease some congestion at LAX I would propose developing Palmdale as a cargo airport. Subsidize or use incentives to get FedEx, UPS, PolarAir Cargo, NW Cargo, and other cargo-only operations to move from LAX to Palmdale. The only problem is compensating these companies for the extra fuel prices involved with trucking the freight from Palmdale to a rail depot or the final destination instead of from LAX (I would suspect most of FedEx's cargo ends up in Los Angeles proper).

Quoting AirlineAddict (Reply 17):
ONT needs to do some PR work with folks in the L.A. basin

There has been an ongoing radio ad camplaing boasting the convenience of "LAO - Los Angeles Ontario airport."


User currently offlineB777A340Fan From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 753 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (8 years 3 months 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 6760 times:

Quoting PanAm747 (Reply 12):
SNA can never grow. BUR has it written in the city charter that no new construction of any type can ever be done. LGB is slot controlled. ONT is a great facility but too far out for most people. El Toro was offered for free and turned down.

That was exactly my thought! Although there is merit to the idea in general, I don't know whether politicians have made a thorough plan. Expanding those airports would not only require a generous budget to actually build the structure, but also to maintain it if you include added security, personnel, etc... Furthermore, as many have pointed out, a lot of those airports have little room to grow. SNA, for example, is bound by the freeway on one side and housing complexes on the other. It's not as easy as it sounds. It's going to require time, money, years of patience (can you imagine California rush hour w/ added construction?  banghead  ), and I'm sure there will be strong opposition, as always.

Quoting FA4UA (Reply 6):
The LA area is decades late in creating a viable train/subway network which would take the burden off the freeways and lighten traffic in the surrounding areas. The current light rail and train network is a joke.

Again, it is always easy to say and harder to do. In order to build a "viable" train/subway network, you have to have space. In the current Los Angeles area, there is little of that. So an underground network seems like a good choice, but you have to remember that California is plagued with the possibility of earthquakes and the likes, making it even harder to do.

I travel in/out of LAX quite often and I don't believe it's that bad, not any worst than JFK, ORD, LHR or the likes. Stress is unfortunately an inherent aspect of today's travel, but I don't mind, just bring along a stress ball  Big grin .
Just my thoughts....Happy Flying!


User currently offlineAcjflyer From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 426 posts, RR: 6
Reply 24, posted (8 years 3 months 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 6759 times:
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I'm new at this so forgive me being a bit naive, but is it not at all cost effective to build a new airport just outside of L.A.? It seems that there aren't many other options out there, but it doesn't sound like anyone is willing to put the money into creating another option either.

25 Longhaulheavy : ONT is great! When ever I'm there, I always have this feeling like I'm doing my part to help develop the American west. It also played a role in "24"
26 N62NA : The reality is, they do have the space. Streetcar tracks used to run down Santa Monica Blvd (they had their own right of way in the median). Same wit
27 N1120A : Dockweiler State Beach is a protected area. You are not talking about a deep water bay here, but a coastline that we need to protect from erosion as
28 Echster : Or they could join DHL on surplus military property at RIV!
29 LTBEWR : Now THAT is a good idea! Much of the bulk air freight, that which isn't 'overnight' FedEx, UPS, DHL, etc., would be better served by ONT or Palmdale.
30 Post contains images NADC10Fan : NiMBYs ... I have really come to despise them. So, exactly why was was a "free" El Toro "turned down" again? I knew it was there, but I've never seen
31 EI A330-200 : The issue that arises when talking about light rail in the LA area is viability. Firstly, you don't have the public transportation culture in LA. Eve
32 BigGSFO : Agreed. I grew up in LA-metro. Even if a subway system as complex as NYC or London were to sprout up overnight, there would still be jammed freeways.
33 LGBFltTrainer : LGB is about to approve a new, modern terminal. However, because of constraints surrounding the current terminal (it is listed as an historical landma
34 AussieItaliano : I disagree. If the government were to become really committed to public transport, or assist private enterprises in that aspect, they could build an
35 RiddlePilot215 : Just a question.... Even though the idea of having service added to most of the surrounding LA airports is quite a good one... Don't most of them suff
36 N1120A : Orange County and Ventura County wouldn't have that sort of thing. You would take over the rights of way on the heavy rail and run more frequent Metr
37 N62NA : That's true, at least for people 21 and over, but it's the younger (future) citizens that would really benefit the most from this and would probably
38 SuseJ772 : That is a GREAT idea. I never thought of that. I think LA will never be able to have a real public transit system (although I think it could work, th
39 JFK998 : A city like LA should have 2 airports. Just like NYC has JFK and LaGuardia. However, there isn't much room to expand and the only thing I could think
40 Aaway : Quite indicative of the political climate in the LA Basin. The LAX expansion debacle was doomed from the start with the appeasement tact used to garn
41 Laxintl : Actually FIS hours not parse are the airports fault. Its much more a simple supply and demand equation with the Federal Government. Unless if an airl
42 Klkla : The L.A. area already has four major airports (LAX, SNA, BUR, ONT). Five if you include Long Beach. But like the other cities you mention only one of
43 Pgtravel : I agree with this, but there is already a good "Rapid" bus system that makes public transit in these areas much easier. I live in Beverly Hills, and
44 Apodino : I was taking a look at the airport arrival demand chart for LAX today. it seems to me they have some room to grow at LAX. According to the FAA chart,
45 Ikramerica : One important aspect of a transit system is the ability for riders to reach it. If you have to walk a mile to get to it, what value is that? If you ha
46 MDW22L31C : What ONT needs is more flights to the Midwest and the East Coast. With only 1 SWA flight to BNA and JB stopped its midday flight to JFK. We need nonst
47 Abrelosojos : = It has 3 I thought? -A.
48 Hawaiian717 : What size of aircraft does that 85/hour arrival rate assume? LAX gets a substantial number of heavy aircraft, which mean a greater separation between
49 Ikramerica : CO has 3 IAH flights a day. From ONT, they have an overnight, a morning and a late afternoon. To ONT, they have a morning, afternoon and evening. They
50 Sllevin : The communities near LAX should have some rights, too! The communities of Burbank/Glendale, Long Beach, and Santa Ana have already pushed through limi
51 N1120A : Actually, El Toro was a nimby problem more than anything BUR, LGB and SNA all had people living in the area before they were built. LAX didn't. That
52 AirlineAddict : You must have missed the second part of my reply. === NYC has two major international airports, EWR and JFK. == El Toro was such a wasted gem. Not al
53 Ikramerica : Yes, I heard this ground delay thing too, and as someone who doesn't work at LAX but does fly from there a LOT, I don't experience it as a pax. Leavi
54 LAX2IADandORD : As an LA native, I am the first to say that i'd like nothing more than to see a new airport. LAX is dated and dumpy (though United and Delta's termin
55 Aloha717200 : I think what the city needs to do, though it will never happen, is actually get some balls and expand a facility to meet demand, and completely ignore
56 2travel2know : I read here a lot about Palmdale but there's almost nothing about Riverside. Whichone of those 2 would be "the less worse choice" to move some LAX (ca
57 Hawaiian717 : I agree that without the slot restrictions, LGB makes the best location for an LAX alternative. Especially as Boeing slowly winds things down (717 wil
58 AussieItaliano : After reading all of these replies, one thing becomes abundantly clear. No solution is going to make everyone happy. If you add capacity to any of the
59 N1120A : Two of the best master plan alternatives actually does include a 5th runway, one has it on the North side and would be a pain and the other on the So
60 AS739X : Hawaiian717: You will not get locals to get over the slot control at LGB. Aussieitaliano: Actually can you say that the idea of building a train to th
61 Post contains links Laxintl : One can forget about any meaningfull expansion at LGB. Besides the very minimal terminal expansion plans (basically build permanent facility to replac
62 Post contains links Boeing7E7 : LAX and ONT create more capacity for the market than do EWR, LGA and JFK combined due to airspace considerations. LAX has no room if they don't make
63 AADC10 : This is a fine thing for the County of Los Angeles to say. The county does not control any aiports, the cities do. If the Los Angeles City Council sai
64 Post contains images Hawaiian717 : Yes, I'm quite aware that the flight cap isn't going away anytime soon until someone forces the city's hand... opposing airport flight slots is likely
65 Jpj777 : I was a 35 year resident of LA (West Covina) and a big aviation and rail transit fan and I have seen and heard all the political BS though the years,
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