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First A350 Order Of 2006  
User currently offlinePanAm_DC10 From Australia, joined Aug 2000, 4189 posts, RR: 89
Posted (8 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 8653 times:
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This is from the subscription only newswire service of Dow Jones, fair use excerpt follows;

In an interview with Dow Jones Mr Leahy confirmed on Tuesday that they had closed a deal to sell an un-named Leasing Co 4 A350s in the previous week.

If anyone subscribes to the newswire the interview can be found here;

http://www.djnewswires.com/

It is not in the WSJ section as many may associate.

This got lost in all the talk generated by their Sales announcement that day and as they were talking 2005 orders, it was not included in the commitment numbers that they spoke of for the model.

Be interesting to see which Leasing Co it is when they update their January spreadsheet.

Regards, PanAm_DC10

[EDIT - For link]

[Edited 2006-01-19 13:16:37]


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38 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineAtmx2000 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 4576 posts, RR: 37
Reply 1, posted (8 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 8606 times:

That's 43 leasing company orders if I am counting correctly, about a quarter of commitments and orders. Are there any indications on potential operators for these aircraft?


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User currently offlineManni From South Korea, joined Nov 2001, 4221 posts, RR: 23
Reply 2, posted (8 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 8402 times:

Quoting PanAm_DC10 (Thread starter):
Mr Leahy confirmed on Tuesday that they had closed a deal to sell an un-named Leasing Co 4 A350s in the previous week.

Leahy also mentioned this at the press conference 2 days ago. Together with the 172 previous announced orders and commitments and the 10 recently revealed orders for an unidentified customer, totals will reach 186. Any more news on these 10 unedentified orders? Has a time frame been given when these 10 and the other 4 will be identified?



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User currently offlineKl808 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 1584 posts, RR: 2
Reply 3, posted (8 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 8342 times:

Im speculating that the 10 UFO A350's are for SU.

Drew



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User currently offlineAtmx2000 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 4576 posts, RR: 37
Reply 4, posted (8 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 8299 times:

Quoting Kl808 (Reply 3):
Im speculating that the 10 UFO A350's are for SU.

SU said any deal wouldn't be signed til March I thought. And I thought they were placing a larger order.



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User currently offlineManni From South Korea, joined Nov 2001, 4221 posts, RR: 23
Reply 5, posted (8 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 8227 times:

Quoting Kl808 (Reply 3):
Im speculating that the 10 UFO A350's are for SU.

I think they wanted up to 28 planes. I'll give it a shot and say they're for Egyptair , to be announced together with the 7 A330's they plan to order.



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User currently offlinePM From Germany, joined Feb 2005, 6941 posts, RR: 63
Reply 6, posted (8 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 8169 times:

Quoting Manni (Reply 5):
I think they wanted up to 28 planes. I'll give it a shot and say they're for Egyptair , to be announced together with the 7 A330's they plan to order.

Maybe, but Aer Lingus seems more likely to me. Then again, who saw Bangkok Airways coming? And aren't Royal Jordanian looking at a 787/A350 order soon? Could be for anyone. (Well, not "anyone"; I think we can rule out Air Canada and Air India...!) But isn't that what makes this so enjoyable?!


User currently offlineManni From South Korea, joined Nov 2001, 4221 posts, RR: 23
Reply 7, posted (8 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 8120 times:

Quoting PM (Reply 6):
And aren't Royal Jordanian looking at a 787/A350 order soon? Could be for anyone. (Well, not "anyone"; I think we can rule out Air Canada and Air India...!) But isn't that what makes this so enjoyable?!

An order from royal Jordanian is expected since a long time, also an order for Viva Macau has been in the air for a while, altough I can't remember how many aircraft would be involved. I believe Aer Lingus wanted more than 10 aircraft.



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User currently offlinePM From Germany, joined Feb 2005, 6941 posts, RR: 63
Reply 8, posted (8 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 7998 times:

Quoting Manni (Reply 7):
I believe Aer Lingus wanted more than 10 aircraft.

Really? To replace 7 A330s? Even allowing for growth, an initial order for 10 sounds about right.


User currently offlineManni From South Korea, joined Nov 2001, 4221 posts, RR: 23
Reply 9, posted (8 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 7900 times:

Quoting PM (Reply 8):
Really? To replace 7 A330s? Even allowing for growth, an initial order for 10 sounds about right.

Yes, I do not have a credible source for this, but IIRC I've read it in one of the many posts discussing the upcoming A330 order. Then again, 10 does indeed sounds right if their current fleet counts only 7.



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User currently offlineShamrock350 From Ireland, joined Mar 2005, 6348 posts, RR: 14
Reply 10, posted (8 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 7621 times:

Aer Lingus are looking for over 10 aircraft I think it was somthing like 11-15.

User currently offlineFCKC From France, joined Nov 2004, 2348 posts, RR: 4
Reply 11, posted (8 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 7400 times:

I will put my money for the 10 ordered on Viva Macau.
They want around 12 frames , and said they will disclose their choice between A350 and 787 in January.


User currently offlineWhiteHatter From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (8 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 6660 times:

Could be any one of a number of lessors. There are many second-line lease outfits who aren't as publicly known as GECAS or ILFC.

Major bank occasionally dip into the market via specially set up lease operating syndicates.


User currently offlinePanAm_DC10 From Australia, joined Aug 2000, 4189 posts, RR: 89
Reply 13, posted (8 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 4044 times:
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Quoting Manni (Reply 2):
Quoting PanAm_DC10 (Thread starter):
Mr Leahy confirmed on Tuesday that they had closed a deal to sell an un-named Leasing Co 4 A350s in the previous week.


Leahy also mentioned this at the press conference 2 days ago. Together with the 172 previous announced orders and commitments and the 10 recently revealed orders for an unidentified customer, totals will reach 186. Any more news on these 10 unedentified orders? Has a time frame been given when these 10 and the other 4 will be identified?

Hi Manni

Indeed he did mention it though no-one seemed to have picked up on the fact that this is their first order for the year.

As for the 10 undisclosed, they are either for GECAS or Air Europa, one of which has "firmed" their order. Mr Leahy has confirmed that total orders and commitments are 176. If the 10 undisclosed increased that number to 186 then Mr Leahy and Mr Humbert would have said so, but they both maintain the 172 or 176 total which, to me, means the 10 undisclosed is as I previously stated, an announced commitment which has been firmed.

Regards, PanAm_DC10



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User currently offlineLeelaw From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (8 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 3917 times:

I have to give Leahy/Airbus a lot of credit, they've got virtually everyone repeating their new contrived jargon: "orders and commitments." Formerly, everyone spoke of "orders and options." At least an option is a binding contract with defined terms and consideration exchanged. What exactly qualifies as a commitment in the order intake context; a press release, a LOI, a MOU (all preliminary to a contract, none of which are legally binding)? BTW, how long does a commitment last before it expires?

[Edited 2006-01-20 11:43:19]

User currently offlinePanAm_DC10 From Australia, joined Aug 2000, 4189 posts, RR: 89
Reply 15, posted (8 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 3748 times:
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Quoting Leelaw (Reply 15):
BTW, how long does a commitment last before it expires?

You posted this in another thread to which I responded though I missed the last part of your question.

How long does a commitment last before it expires? Well, if you look at Virgin America, they first announced their LoI or MoU in 2004 so it lasted over a year. Air Europa first announced their LoI for the A350 in December 2004 and they may well be the undisclosed order a year later, though we're not sure yet.

It all depends on the clauses and wording of the initial LoI or MoU in which there can be many variables. Then again, I guess one to follow as a good example is Primaris, or even better, the GECAS LoI for 8 x 772LR signed in 2000. I highly doubt that one still exists in it's initial form.

Regards, PanAm_DC10



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User currently offlineLeelaw From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (8 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 3627 times:

Quoting PanAm_DC10 (Reply 16):
You posted this in another thread to which I responded though I missed the last part of your question.

That's because I modified my "mini-rant" slightly when I repeated it in this thread as it seemed relevant to the topic.

Thanx for caring. Order nerds of the world, unite!  Smile


User currently offlineScbriml From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2003, 12673 posts, RR: 46
Reply 17, posted (8 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 3541 times:
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Quoting Leelaw (Reply 15):
I have to give Leahy/Airbus a lot of credit, they've got virtually everyone repeating their new contrived jargon: "orders and commitments." Formerly, everyone spoke of "orders and options."

As far as I'm aware, Boeing has been talking about "orders and commitments" ever since the 787 was launched. Whenever Baseler talks about 787 sales, does he talk about the lower firm order number, or the higher "orders and commitments" number?

Here the first example I could find from his very own blog (talking about the QF order)

Quote:
The Qantas order takes the total now to 26 customers who have ordered and committed to the 787 program. A total of 354 orders and commitments for airplanes so far.

So Baseler does exactly the same as Leahy - what do you expect, they're both salesman "bigging-up" their company's products. Not a big surprise really. I don't know who started it first, but both companies do it.

In my book, the only thing that counts is firm orders in the book at the end of the year. twocents 



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User currently offlineGlideslope From United States of America, joined May 2004, 1621 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (8 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 3498 times:

Interesting. Another leasing company. When will operators become interested in the 350?


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User currently offlineScbriml From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2003, 12673 posts, RR: 46
Reply 19, posted (8 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 3462 times:
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Quoting Glideslope (Reply 19):
Interesting. Another leasing company. When will operators become interested in the 350?

Do you think the leasing companies are buying planes without customers?  

ILFC and GECAS alone have ordered over 800 planes (from Airbus), so I suspect Airbus are quite happy for the leasing companies to buy their planes.  

[edited for clarification]

[Edited 2006-01-20 13:03:44]


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User currently offlineManni From South Korea, joined Nov 2001, 4221 posts, RR: 23
Reply 20, posted (8 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 3405 times:

Quoting Glideslope (Reply 19):
Interesting. Another leasing company. When will operators become interested in the 350?

Here's a bit of homework for you. Go, look up how many A330 are owned by leasing companys. Afterwards try to find out how many have been placed by customers and wich customers. Do the same again for the 777 or A340. This should give you a good idea, why leasing companys buy aircraft.



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User currently offlineLeelaw From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (8 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 3316 times:

Steve,

I stand corrected, and will now credit Baseler (architect)/Leahy (chief enabler) with foisting the "orders and commitments" contrivance upon the order intake purists.  Smile

End of Rant.


User currently offlineSabenapilot From Belgium, joined Feb 2000, 2723 posts, RR: 46
Reply 22, posted (8 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 3285 times:

Quoting Glideslope (Reply 19):
Interesting. Another leasing company. When will operators become interested in the A350?

Indeed, yet another company who's daily business it is to carefully analyze, forecast and anticipate the global needs of a wide spread of airlines with very diverse needs, based on many financial, technical and operational studies and open discussions with small and medium sized airlines all over the world.

Its clear the idea living amongst leasing companies is that the A350 is going to be a very good and economical plane, which will be in high demand by many airlines in a few years, or they would not risk their money on it so massively!

Seeing AIRLINES select a specific plane might be very ego-boosting, but in the end it is just the result of an evaluation process by ONE airline, based on ONE set of needs, integrated in ONE existing fleet and for use on ONE network. Leasing companies have to look much wider than that and select a plane suitable for as many as possible, rather than ideal for one!

It is striking to see leasing companies have been extremely reluctant to sign for the 787 and in fact still are.
In fact, I think the 787 is Boeing's slowest selling jet with leasing companies ever!

Blue chips customers may be very interesting to have from a promotional point of view, but having the leasing companies on board is more reassuring from an operating point of view.

[Edited 2006-01-20 13:30:36]

User currently offlineScbriml From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2003, 12673 posts, RR: 46
Reply 23, posted (8 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 3278 times:
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Quoting Leelaw (Reply 22):
Steve,

I stand corrected, and will now credit Baseler (architect)/Leahy (chief enabler) with foisting the "orders and commitments" contrivance upon the order intake purists.

No problem - I couldn't let Airbus take all the credit! smile 



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User currently offlinePanAm_DC10 From Australia, joined Aug 2000, 4189 posts, RR: 89
Reply 24, posted (8 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 3100 times:
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Quoting Sabenapilot (Reply 23):
It is striking to see leasing companies have been extremely reluctant to sign for the 787 and in fact still are.
In fact, I think the 787 is Boeing's slowest selling jet with leasing companies ever!

Sabenapilot

Respectfully, I shall disagree a little with that part of your statement. The A350 has 43 commitments from Leasing Companies whilst the B787 has 38, included in that is 4 options for ILFC. So in total there is only about a 5 frame difference at this point. Now I cannot provide a link but I have information that Boeing with-held from placing early delivery 787s with Leasing Co's in favour of direct sales to Airlines.

Also, in the case of both aircraft, the largest Leasing Companies were reluctant to sign up initially because the design of certain models was not, at that point, sufficient to meet their criteria. That's why ILFCs first deliveries of the 787 are not until 2010.

That said, I do not refute that the A350 has more Leasing Companies which have commited to or ordered it at this point over the 787. But one order from GECAS and maybe AWAS could change that.

Quoting Sabenapilot (Reply 23):
Blue chips customers may be very interesting to have from a marketing point of view, but having the leasing companies on board is more reassuring from an operating point of view.

What if you get both at the same time? I've no doubt that given the financing solutions which Airbus and Boeing include in their tenders to RFPs that on occassion the two shall meet. For example;

Qantas will fund the new aircraft from cash flows. However the company did not specify how many of the new planes would be leased and how many would be purchased, saying that too was commercially sensitive information

Source: QF CEO Geoff Dixon SMH 15 December 2005

So the order may well be direct from the manufacturer however the airline maybe using a Leasing Co to finance the aquisition. Over time this should bring on board more Leasing Co's to both the 787 and A350.

The flip side of course is that with delivery in some cases quite some time away, that some Leasing Co's may not place their ordered frames and convert to different models. Such as instances in the past with CIT and the 753 which they never took delivery of in addition to ILFC and the 764 IIRC.

Regards, PanAm_DC10



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25 Sabenapilot : Indeed, in absolute numbers there is only a small difference, but relative to the total number of sales of both planes, the 787 clearly has gained le
26 Leelaw : Interesting. How did you come to that conclusion? Based on your other observations, you must find it equally striking that the after more than five y
27 PanAm_DC10 : As to the technological risks, Mr Udvar-Hazy from ILFC specifically stated this was one of the reasons why his company was not ready to order the 787
28 Sabenapilot : I think they do more than that actually! Obviously, lessors often order on behalf of a specific airline and thus simply pre-finance the order as such
29 Leelaw : Yes. 772 1st Order: UAL 15-October-90 (16) 1st Order from a Leasing Company: ILFC 15-December-92 (4) 2nd Order from a Leasing Company: SAL 22-Decembe
30 Atmx2000 : The 777 is a plane that was considered by airlines to be expensive to buy and own directly, so taking planes from leasing companies was considered a
31 Sabenapilot : Of course, you conveniently take only the 777-200 whereas you pick the entire 787 range.... Can you add the numbers for the different 777-300 product
32 N79969 : It is hard to understand what is supposedly "stunning" and the point of these remarks. My understanding that is preferable to sell directly to operat
33 Atmx2000 : He did that because the 772A and ER models were the only ones offered early in the programs life. The 777-300A wasn't launched until 1995 and the -20
34 Leelaw : Sabenapilot may find it "striking" how many 787 operators will be able to easily arrange sale/leaseback transactions under competitive terms, immedia
35 Leelaw : Anyone want to venture a guess on how many of those aircraft were "whitetails" ordered by the leasing companies on spec. as suggested earlier by our
36 Atmx2000 : The GECAS order was probably related to the GEAE investment in the 777LR engine program. Also, Emirates initial 773ER acquisition in 2004 involved ta
37 Dalecary : Boeing had so much demand from airlines for the 787 that they didn't need the leasing companies. I would take it that the fast selling WB of all time
38 Post contains images Stitch : "Don't need" is probably too strong a word, but indeed one can interpret this a number of ways, positive and negative. If you wanted a negative view
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