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Kai Tak Takeoffs  
User currently offlineApollo13 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (8 years 3 months 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 6335 times:

Okay so we all know about the famous IGS 13 approaches with the Checkerboard turn, no i was wondering about takeoffs, where the lanes takeoff towards the mountains, do they have to make the same turn in the same direction going left over the city, or did they just fly right over the hills and mountains?

27 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineCentrair From Japan, joined Jan 2005, 3598 posts, RR: 21
Reply 1, posted (8 years 3 months 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 6300 times:

When I flew out of Kai Tak, we left over the harbour.

But when I flew in on NW, we came in over the harbour. But that was because it was at night.

Then again I was like 17 years old.



Yes...I am not a KIX fan. Let's Japanese Aviation!
User currently offlineCoronado990 From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 1593 posts, RR: 2
Reply 2, posted (8 years 3 months 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 6279 times:

Yes, they made the turn. Saw a UA 744 do it.


Uncle SAN at your service!
User currently offlineTR From UK - England, joined May 2001, 953 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (8 years 3 months 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 6205 times:

Quoting Apollo13 (Thread starter):
make the same turn in the same direction going left over the city, or did they just fly right over the hills and mountains

I have experienced these takeoffs with Cathay, Lufthansa, SAS & Swissair. They all made the turn. However I didn't find the takeoffs as spectacular as the landings. Maybe because you often experience course changes immediately after takeoff at many big airports.

BTW I doubt that any (large) aircraft could make it over the hills/mountains. I'd say you'd have a crash. But maybe someone with cockpit experience at Kai Tak can add to this.


User currently offlineTrex8 From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 4494 posts, RR: 14
Reply 4, posted (8 years 3 months 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 6049 times:
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you could probably make it over the "mountains" - they are actually more like hills where Lion Rock is, but the problem going straight north was that you would then be in Chinese airspace very quickly.

User currently offlineSwissy From Switzerland, joined Jan 2005, 1734 posts, RR: 4
Reply 5, posted (8 years 3 months 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 5994 times:

I was flying in the early to mid 90's with CX on a regular basis to HKG and we
always came in over the city (wowwwwwwww) and take off torwards the bay with a right turn.

Cheers,


User currently offlineCloudyapple From Hong Kong, joined Jul 2005, 2453 posts, RR: 9
Reply 6, posted (8 years 3 months 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 5930 times:

Quoting Trex8 (Reply 4):
you could probably make it over the "mountains" - they are actually more like hills where Lion Rock is, but the problem going straight north was that you would then be in Chinese airspace very quickly.

No you cant. Lion rock s 1600' and ~2Nm from the upwind threshold. Calculate yourself the climb gradient required to clear the hill top + a 1500' MOCA.



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User currently offlineTristarsteve From Sweden, joined Nov 2005, 3930 posts, RR: 34
Reply 7, posted (8 years 3 months 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 5862 times:

Flying the GF Tristar simulator back in 1985, we made it over the hills!
Gave me a fright, I wasn't ready for it and they look awfully close.


User currently offlineDABTH From Germany, joined Aug 2005, 66 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (8 years 3 months 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 5835 times:

Once saw an Alitalia MD 11 which climbed straight out over the mountains.
I own an old video with Kai Tak approaches and departures. As far as I know most flights departed via Rw13 straight over the bay and only a very few used it the other way around because of the prevailing winds in the area.

rgds


User currently offlineAirbus_A340 From Hong Kong, joined Mar 2000, 1560 posts, RR: 19
Reply 9, posted (8 years 3 months 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 5760 times:

"Once saw an Alitalia MD 11 which climbed straight out over the mountains."

In my 13 years of living on Beacon Hill, with perfect views of approaches and take-offs, as many screw ups I have seen- I have never ever heard anything remotely as bizzare as that. I've spoken to other people who have heard the same thing too with other airlines and aircraft....bizzare!! It's unbelieveable that it can happen!!!!

[Edited 2006-01-20 16:19:16]


People. They make an airline. www.cathaypacific.com
User currently offlineCloudyapple From Hong Kong, joined Jul 2005, 2453 posts, RR: 9
Reply 10, posted (8 years 3 months 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 5720 times:

Please find the following archived SID plate for RWY31 VHXX. The SID makes a 60deg left turn immediately on climb thru the upwind end of the runway. There is absolutely no way anything flying straight on - see obstacle height indications on the plate.
http://www.swiremariners.com/31depart.html

Also this is the RWY31 STAR plate. The miss appraoch procedure is a 30deg left turn over the harbour DCT SC. Again no chance scraping the lion rocks.
http://www.swiremariners.com/31laimun.html



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User currently offlineConcordeBoy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (8 years 3 months 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 5693 times:


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Samuel Lo



User currently offlineCloudyapple From Hong Kong, joined Jul 2005, 2453 posts, RR: 9
Reply 12, posted (8 years 3 months 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 5609 times:

Not sure what you are trying to show but the cathay is doing the 60deg turn. Re:SID plates - you can basically join up the 1523' and the 1975' peaks - that forms a range like a wall which departures never hop over. The picture is taken from the south west towards the north east close to the upwind end. The mountain in the back is close to the 1975' peak.


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User currently offlineBoeing747_600 From United States of America, joined Oct 1999, 1290 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (8 years 3 months 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 5590 times:

seems like a pretty straightforward approach if your aircraft can handle the turn radius which shouldnt be a problem Under 200 knots for even the heaviest of the heavies. Now I'd would've liked to have seen the An 225 do that  Smile

User currently offlineMarshalN From Hong Kong, joined Sep 2005, 1521 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (8 years 3 months 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 5552 times:

Yes, in all my years going to school under the flight path I have never seen a plane that goes over the hills. They always turn left (that's the only open way to avoid the hills) and go over Kowloon Tong in various angles. The noisiest were always the Dragonair 732s...

User currently offlineKaitak From Ireland, joined Aug 1999, 12324 posts, RR: 35
Reply 15, posted (8 years 3 months 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 5400 times:

I've seen more than a few crazy AZ landings at HKG (how they managed to avoid losing an '11 at HKG is a miracle ... I can just see the cockpit checklist: QNH, set and cross checked, gear - down, rosaries - third sorrowful mysteries ...)

Anyway, moving swiftly along, the one thing I always regret is that I never got the chance to experience an MTOW t/o from 31. Most airlines, when the winds required a 31 departure, had to cut down on weight considerably, but CX was allowed to do so at MTOW; I remember seeing a CX -400 taking off from 31 in 1993; was that ever an experience!


User currently offlineMarshalN From Hong Kong, joined Sep 2005, 1521 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (8 years 3 months 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 5280 times:

Quoting Kaitak (Reply 15):
Most airlines, when the winds required a 31 departure, had to cut down on weight considerably, but CX was allowed to do so at MTOW;

Really? Didn't know that. I guess they presume the pilots know what to do, although doesn't this give CX a competetive advantage, however slim?

I have probably been in one or two of these flights as I remember back then those YVR flights were ALWAYS full


User currently offlineTrex8 From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 4494 posts, RR: 14
Reply 17, posted (8 years 3 months 1 day ago) and read 3625 times:
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Quoting Cloudyapple (Reply 6):
No you cant. Lion rock s 1600' and ~2Nm from the upwind threshold. Calculate yourself the climb gradient required to clear the hill top + a 1500' MOCA.

the reason I said I think (a commercial aircraft) could be able to make it is because I have personally witnessed a RAF Canberra do it! And it was quite a sight!


User currently offlineN754PR From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (8 years 3 months 23 hours ago) and read 3196 times:

I can't speak for the AZ MD11 and have to say its rather odd but I myself did see a CA 744 in POOR weather depart straight out and over lion rock. The tower kept telling him to turn left, after giving up with that they asked for his height and when they knew he was OVER Lion Rock they just sent him North and into China.

In my 1000's of hours at Kai Tak that was the ONLY time I saw that happen.


User currently offlineMarshalN From Hong Kong, joined Sep 2005, 1521 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (8 years 3 months 22 hours ago) and read 3068 times:

Quoting N754PR (Reply 18):
I can't speak for the AZ MD11 and have to say its rather odd but I myself did see a CA 744 in POOR weather depart straight out and over lion rock. The tower kept telling him to turn left, after giving up with that they asked for his height and when they knew he was OVER Lion Rock they just sent him North and into China.

Now imagine if he didn't clear it...

That'll be horrible.


User currently offlineBeechNut From Canada, joined exactly 10 years ago today! , 720 posts, RR: 10
Reply 20, posted (8 years 3 months 22 hours ago) and read 3067 times:

Quoting Trex8 (Reply 17):
the reason I said I think (a commercial aircraft) could be able to make it is because I have personally witnessed a RAF Canberra do it! And it was quite a sight!

It would never happen on a pax flight. Even if the aircraft could clear the hills, the procedures have to take into account the usual "what if" as in "what if an engine quit before we cleared the hills"?

Hence the turn out to the left. And the weight restrictions even with that.

Beech


User currently offlineConcordeBoy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (8 years 3 months 22 hours ago) and read 3022 times:

Quoting Kaitak (Reply 15):
Most airlines, when the winds required a 31 departure, had to cut down on weight considerably, but CX was allowed to do so at MTOW

Never heard this before... what about CX allowed them to have that exemption?

Also, have a source to back it up? Just curious.


User currently offlineKlyk1980 From Canada, joined Jan 2004, 153 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (8 years 3 months 21 hours ago) and read 2739 times:

As a resident of Hong Kong for long long time.....I can tell you, thats impossible for the flight to take off and fly over Lion Rocks!!!

User currently offlineCloudyapple From Hong Kong, joined Jul 2005, 2453 posts, RR: 9
Reply 23, posted (8 years 3 months 21 hours ago) and read 2582 times:

Quoting Klyk1980 (Reply 22):
As a resident of Hong Kong for long long time.....I can tell you, thats impossible for the flight to take off and fly over Lion Rocks!!!

Absolutely, that requires a 15% climb gradient - compared to a standard 3-5% and MTOW ISA on a B772 is ~4%. You have to be mad or empty to do that.

Non-RPTs are exceptions but would still have needed ATC clearance to do that (traffic) and a gurantee that the pilots were aware of the obstacle and the aircraft had the performance to do it.

More "recent" Kaitak charts:
http://www.geocities.com/teedeez/kaitakcharts.html

Quoting N754PR (Reply 18):
when they knew he was OVER Lion Rock they just sent him North and into China.

I doubt they could reach the required hand off altitude into China. I'm sure the chinese would have rejected it and HK vectored it around to gain alt. Imagine the chaos it would have caused.



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User currently offlineCX flyboy From Hong Kong, joined Dec 1999, 6533 posts, RR: 55
Reply 24, posted (8 years 3 months 18 hours ago) and read 1927 times:

It has happened. I have spoken to HK ATC about it. The pilots of the Air China had very bad english and despite ATC telling them to turn, they did not understand and continued to climb, straight over the top of the hills. When ATC saw on radar that they were going to clear the hills, they let him continue, but there was a lot of paperwork afterwards.

I know it is hard to believe, but it is indeed true and did happen. Just because procedures say to turn, that does not preclude a crew from ignoring it. There have been many incidents in aviation where you think "No way...how on earth could that happen?!" Well, it happens.


25 Je89_w : Wow, pretty amazing for that CA pilot to pull such a stunt! The misunderstanding in the ATC didn't help either, but good thing they cleared the hills.
26 Abba : Wonder how you managed to have a take off towards the mountains with SAS! They were at the time infamous for loading their 767s to the brim and conse
27 N754PR : When I saw that CA 744 I must have been dreaming, not to mention the frantic calls from the tower, on my scanner!!...... good dream. As for SAS, I thi
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