Sponsor Message:
Civil Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
Alitalia Strikes, What's Going On?  
User currently offlineLospaziale From Italy, joined Sep 2005, 37 posts, RR: 0
Posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 4 hours ago) and read 2907 times:

It's quite normal for us italians hear that Alitalia staff in on strike, but in these days the thing is getting more and more important:
the news said that because of a ground and maintenance staff strike that could go on until Tuesday, the ENTIRE ALITALIA FLEET COULD BE GROUNDED because of the lack of pre departure maintenance checks!

Alitalia, what's going on?? You're almost to fail and this could be the step towards hell....


lo spaziale
31 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineBeaucaire From Syria, joined Sep 2003, 5252 posts, RR: 25
Reply 1, posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 4 hours ago) and read 2891 times:

It seems they want to demonstrate to Volare -staff the way they intend to run Volare in the future....
If you consider they did bid nearly 30 M € for an airline without money and now go on strike....poor Italy !
As much as I like Italians and Italy,as much I hate the unions that run AZ into the wall ! Stron....



Please respect animals - don't eat them...
User currently offlineBicoastal From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 4 hours ago) and read 2879 times:

What's going on? Professional suicide.

In a globally competitive business, the Alitalia union members seem to have their heads in the sand. How does one say "Sabena" in Italian?


User currently offlineLumberton From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 4708 posts, RR: 20
Reply 3, posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 4 hours ago) and read 2846 times:

Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 1):
It seems they want to demonstrate to Volare -staff the way they intend to run Volare in the future....

Pardon my ignorance on this issue, but what is the connection between Alitalia and Volare?



"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
User currently offlineBeaucaire From Syria, joined Sep 2003, 5252 posts, RR: 25
Reply 4, posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 3 hours ago) and read 2837 times:

Alitalia have decided to buy Volare and made an offer that is currently in the process of being approved by a regional court...!!!!!!
Air One ,who have made a competing offer ,have placed a complaint reasoning that a company that is basically broke can't buy any other airline. But then we are in Italy and everything is possible there....

http://www.agi.it/english/news.pl?do...page=0&id=agionline-eng.bnessitaly

[Edited 2006-01-21 16:02:27]


Please respect animals - don't eat them...
User currently offlinePiercey From Sweden, joined Nov 2005, 2233 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 3 hours ago) and read 2815 times:

Quoting Bicoastal (Reply 2):
How does one say "Sabena" in Italian?

Alitalia  Wink

Seriously, household name to grave in less then two years.



Well I believe it all is coming to an end. Oh well, I guess we are gonna pretend.
User currently offlineContinentalEWR From United States of America, joined May 2000, 3762 posts, RR: 13
Reply 6, posted (8 years 8 months 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 2719 times:

Alitalia on Strike? How unusual....

Alitalia will very soon join the likes of Sabena, Eastern, Independence Air, and all the other failed carriers.

Italy's next flag airline? Air One or Air France.


User currently offlineRst033 From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 37 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (8 years 8 months 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 2712 times:

what do you expect? just like most airline employees they have no idea that they're just a few steps away from no job.

love to see alitalia succeed but it appears the employees want to kill their jobs.


User currently offlineScotron11 From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2004, 1178 posts, RR: 3
Reply 8, posted (8 years 8 months 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 2681 times:

Government ministers have basically said that there will be no more assistance for AZ in the future, no matter what happens. Their fate is in the hands of the markets. So now it is sink or swim for them.

User currently offlineSevenforeseven From France, joined Nov 2005, 164 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (8 years 8 months 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 2665 times:

Sad very sad, but dinosaurs also came to a end.

User currently offlineElagabal From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2005, 201 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (8 years 8 months 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 2618 times:

Quoting Bicoastal (Reply 2):
What's going on? Professional suicide.

No, just business as usual   

Quoting Scotron11 (Reply 8):
Government ministers have basically said that there will be no more assistance for AZ in the future, no matter what happens. Their fate is in the hands of the markets. So now it is sink or swim for them.

I wish I could agree with you. It seems that the Italian cabinet has mastered the art of speaking with many voices - compare the labour and finance ministers' comments on the issue in the past... Sorry not to've dug up the articles, but you can trawl them from the FT.

I'm sure they'll keep throwing good money after bad. Just wait: AZ will go kaput, Berlusconi & krewe will suddenly change their minds and offer another "very last rescue ever," the European Commission will have another diva fit - which ultimately will be ignored - and we'll be back to square 1.

[Edited 2006-01-22 03:44:52]

User currently offlineScotron11 From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2004, 1178 posts, RR: 3
Reply 11, posted (8 years 8 months 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 2582 times:

Quoting Elagabal (Reply 10):

Just wait: AZ will go kaput, Berlusconi & krewe will suddenly change their minds and offer another "very last rescue ever," the European Commission will have another diva fit - which ultimately will be ignored - and we'll be back to square 1.

You are probably right. That is why Berlusconi would love AF/KLM to take AZ over, then he could claim credit for "saving" them!


User currently offlineBAW716 From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 2028 posts, RR: 27
Reply 12, posted (8 years 8 months 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 2514 times:

This is bad. The airline that I worked for and for whom I built (with my team) a franchise in the Bay Area only to see it evaporate when they pulled the aircraft seems to be headed in the wrong direction...again.

The problem is simple. The unions have too much power. The only way that AZ will survive is to bust the unions. This said, that is pretty much putting the gun to the head of the airline, since so the union goes, so does the airline.

Buying Volare is a political move, nothing more. There is absolutely no benefit to AZ whatsoever in that purchase. It is the Italian government making sure they get reelected.

The ONLY way AZ will survive if a) it privatizes and b) gets someone other than an Italian to run it. As much as I love my ex colleagues at AZ, the situation there is becoming ridiculous, and even harder for me to continue to defend.

However, for AZ to survive, it also must stand on its own. If AF/KL purchases AZ, the EU will have a cow, it is uncertain if the AZ brand will remain and a lot of Italians will be put out of work in favor of the Dutch and the French. A bad idea all around.

Is there a savior with EUR 1 billion to save this airline?

baw716



David L. Lamb, fmr Area Mgr Alitalia SFO 1998-2002, fmr Regional Analyst SFO-UAL 1992-1998
User currently offlineRst033 From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 37 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (8 years 8 months 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 2463 times:

BAW

that will never ever happen.

Tremonti was right a few years ago when he said let AZ go belly up. lets stop throwing good money at a bad problem. the only reason why they saved AZ the last time was because of politics only.

and buying Volare what a joke! the unions are playing with fire because the Italian public is fed up with the Alitalia. AZ employees have it made and their attitude is me first let the gov't flip the bill-that ain't gonna fly!


User currently offlineTripple7 From Netherlands, joined Aug 1999, 539 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (8 years 8 months 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 2446 times:

I start to better understand AZ's unions every single day.

Many are screaming, the unions are the ones that are killing AZ. I think they are wrong. The unions are the catalyst in letting AZ die. Italian politics and poor AZ management are the ones to blame. Politics and management of Italian companies are to interrelated in "traditional" Italian firms. Politicians and AZ managers are the ones that ignited the financial problems for AZ. The unions are just opposing in a way that does not contribute to the situation. Tradition has probably learned the unions, that the financial impact of their strikes would probably be solved by others (read government).

Look at the recent acquisition of Antoveneta (did I write this correct?) by ABN-AMRO and the role the Italian national bank played in this. If not, do a read up on this recent case and one will get a better understanding in Corportate/Political Italy.

Summing this up. Italian firms are there for handig top management functions to political buddies. No one has any real interest in being a competitive force. They keep bailing each other out when one comes in trouble.

Best thing to happen to AZ (however very sad for AZ employees) is to let it go belly up and start-up a privatized new Italian flag carrier from the ashes. Sad but true. The current situation of AZ has no long term viability.


User currently offlineRst033 From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 37 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (8 years 8 months 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 2407 times:

Triple7

I know people who have worked at AZ. You know what they do?? They go on compensation (get hurt to miss work) for a few months (say 3-4 months) then go on vacation for a few months. Then in Italy August is vacation month so they have to have off that month too. In a nut shell they never work! Most AZ employees have it made. They are well compensated (compared to others in the same industry) and federally subsidized by the Italian Government. Why worry? Get paid too be on vacation, travel when you want and when its time to flip the bill the Italian public picks up the tab!

Alitalia had an opportunity to be a very stable airline but the employees want to suck it dry. No manager or politician can fix that problem!

Alitalia is done!


User currently offlineSwisswings From Switzerland, joined Feb 2005, 60 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (8 years 8 months 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 2383 times:

As Sarah Brightman sings:"Time to say goodbye"...to AZ. This airline has been around for too long!! Despite of poor financial performance, low levels of service and no sense of customer orientation. As many things in Italy, it is about politics and unions. Politics constantly try to save AZ with the help of Brussels (EU not being very consequent, indeed) while unions constantly jeopardize salvation plans with strikes and a non-cooperative behavior. Europe has seen airlines that had better records disappear, so I am sure we will survive the disappearance of AZ. There are others that finally will do a better job, as long as they keep politicians out and have unions under control (...this seems almost impossible in Italy). And contrary to some other statements, I am sure that there are a few excellent Italian managers absolutely able to run an airline successfully in a difficult environment. They don't need foreigners to do that. Ciao Alitalia, this time for good - hopefully.

User currently offlineTripple7 From Netherlands, joined Aug 1999, 539 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (8 years 8 months 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 2375 times:

Quoting Rst033 (Reply 15):
I know people who have worked at AZ. You know what they do?? They go on compensation (get hurt to miss work) for a few months (say 3-4 months) then go on vacation for a few months. Then in Italy August is vacation month so they have to have off that month too. In a nut shell they never work! Most AZ employees have it made. They are well compensated (compared to others in the same industry) and federally subsidized by the Italian Government. Why worry? Get paid too be on vacation, travel when you want and when its time to flip the bill the Italian public picks up the tab!

Rst033,
With all respect, I think your example illustrates only a few rotten apples from the bunch. I cannot believe someone gets hurt voluntarily to miss work. I think it is a disgrace the way you portrait AZ employees. I hope I misunderstood you and I made a generalization error. The majority of AZ employees is not lazy and the Italian employment ethos is certainly not to suck a company dry.

I understand your worries about the behaviour of the AZ employees as you describe. But someway, your example is common practice in Europe as determined by social laws.

When you get hurt in an accident and are not able to work for a couple of months because of the injuries, this is not substracted from the vacation days of an employee. I do not know what the average number of vacation days is at AZ, but I guess it is about 40 days a year. In Europe you are by law entitled to a number of vacation days. Even Ryanair has to obbey these laws and give employees the minimum amount of vacation days, which is about 20-25 on average in Europe.

In total an employee who cannot work for 3 months because of an accident with 40 vacation days will not be available for 5 months for the company. This is certainly a long time.

Please take in consideration, that the time the employee missed work because of the accident, this is compensated by insurance meassures by the government. The company receives partial compensation. This is one of the reasons taxes in European countries are relatively high.

Every company in Italy and Europe has to deal with these issues. Still, many, many European companies are very successful. It's not the injury compensation or the vacation days, which are killing AZ. It is politics and AZ management.


User currently offlineLJ From Netherlands, joined Nov 1999, 4430 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (8 years 8 months 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 2349 times:

Quoting BAW716 (Reply 12):
However, for AZ to survive, it also must stand on its own. If AF/KL purchases AZ, the EU will have a cow, it is uncertain if the AZ brand will remain and a lot of Italians will be put out of work in favor of the Dutch and the French. A bad idea all around.

Is there anyone who thinks AF/KL will envest a euro into AZ? Come on, KL knows what it's like to have an investment in AZ and surely won't be putting a single euro into the airline.

Quoting Tripple7 (Reply 14):
Summing this up. Italian firms are there for handig top management functions to political buddies. No one has any real interest in being a competitive force. They keep bailing each other out when one comes in trouble.

I agree, recent takeover bids by foreign companies of Italian firms show this and fortunately the EU and some Italians aren't accepting this.


User currently offlinePHKLM From Northern Mariana Islands, joined Dec 2005, 1198 posts, RR: 2
Reply 19, posted (8 years 8 months 6 days ago) and read 2319 times:

Quoting LJ (Reply 18):
Is there anyone who thinks AF/KL will envest a euro into AZ? Come on, KL knows what it's like to have an investment in AZ and surely won't be putting a single euro into the airline.

Ehh, how do you explain their 2% stake in the company then?
Even after the stock issue in December AF/KL bought new shares in order to keep the 2% investment in AZ. 2% amounts to €31.600.000 with the share price of Friday JAN/20.
It's sad to see AZ goes down the drain, hope they survive another 3 weeks, as I will be flying them to the Olympic Games in Torino in February  Smile


User currently offlineNycfly75 From Italy, joined Aug 2005, 759 posts, RR: 9
Reply 20, posted (8 years 8 months 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 2258 times:

This may seem radical, but if I were Berlusconi, I would fire every employee of Alitalia like Reagan did to the air traffic controlllers in the US and rehire non union employees who actually want a job.

User currently offlineAlitalia744 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 4750 posts, RR: 45
Reply 21, posted (8 years 8 months 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 2249 times:

Quoting Nycfly75 (Reply 20):
This may seem radical, but if I were Berlusconi, I would fire every employee of Alitalia like Reagan did to the air traffic controlllers in the US and rehire non union employees who actually want a job.

That's why you're not in charge of Alitalia.  Wink



Some see lines, others see between the lines.
User currently offlineBAW716 From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 2028 posts, RR: 27
Reply 22, posted (8 years 8 months 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 2240 times:

Rst033,
I was an Alitalia manager. I got hurt on the job, and I wasn't even near an aircraft when that happened. I eventually lost my job when the west coast was closed and when I went on disability; I had to fight tooth and nail with the insurance company to get any compensation at all. Alitalia treated me very fairly when I was separated from the company, so I do not blame them for my issues with their insurance company (which they replaced just after my accident).

After four years, I still am unable to work and in all likelihood, may not be able to return to work ever. I have not received one DIME in compensation aside from the settlement I was able to reach with the insurance company (I can't say how much, but it wasn't much...and after three years of fighting them). I am trying to file for SSDI, but who knows if that will work.

And you say AZ employees have it good? Clearly, there is a lot you do not know.

I agree with the premise that some employees in Italy who are unionized have become exceptionally lazy. But you know what? The same problem occurs here in the USA with the under 40 year old crowd. Its all about them; they don't give a rat's ass about pride in their craft. On the other hand, I personally know Alitalia employees in Italy (all over 40...I'm 45) who kill themselves to provide good customer service; to those people I say bravo and they deserve their pay and benefits. Overgeneralizing the situation like you have just inflames the situation and adds nothing positive to the discussion.

The general assessment that AZ continually falters because the government and management don't know how to run an airline is a valid premise. However, I would place the blame more on the government and the unions; between the two of them, they have run more good managers out of AZ than I can count...and there have been some really good managers at AZ, contrary to popular belief.

As I have stated: For AZ to survive, it must privatize, dump the unions and get people who are willing to roll up their sleeves and work hard, if for no other reason than simple Italian pride. There are many good things about AZ; all it needs is some people who care about really building a quality company and getting the government out of the way. Unfortunately, the reality is that nothing will change; the Italian government will never let AZ fail. As long as that situation exists, nothing will ever change.

baw716



David L. Lamb, fmr Area Mgr Alitalia SFO 1998-2002, fmr Regional Analyst SFO-UAL 1992-1998
User currently offlineElagabal From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2005, 201 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (8 years 8 months 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 2229 times:

Tripple7: a very thoughtful initial reply. I agree with you about the bank deals too - yes, it is a question of corporate culture.

Quoting Tripple7 (Reply 14):
Best thing to happen to AZ (however very sad for AZ employees) is to let it go belly up and start-up a privatized new Italian flag carrier from the ashes. Sad but true. The current situation of AZ has no long term viability.

'Nuff said.


User currently offlinePHKLM From Northern Mariana Islands, joined Dec 2005, 1198 posts, RR: 2
Reply 24, posted (8 years 8 months 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 2126 times:

@ baw716: Well said.

Today was even weirder than yesterday: a staggering of 173 flights got cancelled, tomorrow they expect another 250 flights being cancelled. Hope some Italians here can tell me what happened, my Italian is bad, but I understood Berlusconi said something for Radio24, some ministers argued a little and the unions are destroying the company in a very effective way.
The stock dropped more than 8%; the should make the wage of the employees dependent on the stock price  Smile


25 Cityjet : so how well paid are these strikers compared to the likes of KL AF or indeed any other carrier - in % for a flight attendent, baggage handler and a co
26 ETStar : Strikes are nothing new in Italy, and if you happen to travel through Rome frequently, you will have noticed that if it's not the mechanics one day, i
27 PHKLM : But this is getting out of hand, even according to Italian news sites. I've been in Italy many times and I know there's always at least ONE "sciopero"
28 StarGoldLHR : OK, Ive decieded to consult the oracle... that great Pratt and Whitney crystal ball and it says... RIP AZ. Long live Ryan Air, the new king of Italian
29 Rst033 : baw716 I'm sure you where a good manager and I'm not commenting on US employees. The facts are AZ is one of the best paying airlines in Europe. They d
30 GVWOW : It is really very sad and unfortunate that this is happening to AZ. The striking really isn't helping. I do know that striking does happen in Italy an
31 BA757 : I believe there is also a two day strike on the trains here in Italy this week also? Anyway, this is certainly not good for AZ, but a lot of things th
Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
What's Going On Alitalia? Fined Twice By Caac posted Tue Aug 15 2006 21:43:09 by Carnoc
What's Going On With Alitalia? posted Sun Aug 28 2005 11:47:16 by Scotron11
What's Going On At IND? posted Sat Nov 18 2006 23:02:43 by Ward86IND
What's Going On In ATL Right Now? posted Mon Sep 25 2006 01:58:55 by DLX737200
What's Going On With Trump's VP-BDJ? posted Thu Sep 14 2006 01:30:17 by United_Fan
What's Going On With The 2 New AS 738s? posted Fri Sep 1 2006 07:03:45 by RobK
What's Going On With The TW 757's? posted Tue Aug 22 2006 17:11:27 by DeltaGuy767
What's Going On With TAM's Fidelidade Program? posted Tue Jul 11 2006 20:17:24 by Donzilasse
What's Going On With Config. On Delta 763ERs? posted Tue Jul 11 2006 19:41:27 by Airplanetire
Acvila, Romania - What's Going On? posted Sun May 21 2006 19:40:45 by Md80forum