As many here will know, I am really disappointed with EI choosing Airbus. The 787 would be perfect for them, but wasn't to be. The 330 has served EI well, and so will the 350.
Boeing fought hard for this order. Really hard - why - because they had an excellent chance of winning it. Boeing knows that EI is a small carrier, but punches well above its weight, with other same size (and bigger) airlines looking to Aer Lingus, and what they are doing.
Aer Lingus chose the best aircraft for their needs, and they know best. In no way is this a political order.
Quoting CV990 (Reply 13): In original thread
Fluffy is such an arrogant word in these cases- and probably sums up how boeing felt about airbus airline wins in the late 90's. I really do hope that Boeing dont feel, and act like this anymore.
PM From India, joined Feb 2005, 6717 posts, RR: 65 Reply 2, posted (7 years 4 months 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 8288 times:
Quoting BestWestern (Reply 2): I am really disappointed with EI choosing Airbus. The 787 would be perfect for them, but wasn't to be.
These A330s are a stop-gap. They aren't being ordered instead of 787s. The report suggests that a decision has not been made between the 787 and A350. (Though I agree that Airbus must have an advantage at present.)
Kaitak From Ireland, joined Aug 1999, 11956 posts, RR: 37 Reply 6, posted (7 years 4 months 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 8110 times:
Well, it's a movement in the right direction anyway. Aer Lingus will be ordering four new A330s (model not specified) for delivery beginning later this year and into '07. The airline will be benefiting from the change's to Ireland's bilateral with the US (part of the overall EU/US package) and this will result in two major changes from November:
- EI will be able to add three new cities in the US, and
- The ratio of flights between DUB:SNN will be increased from the current 1:1 to 3:1 in Dublin's favour. This means that if EI operates 13 flights a week from SNN (with two acft based there), it could have 39 nonstops from DUB - five nonstops plus four extras, so it gives them plenty of leeway to add new flights.
EI doesn't necessarily have to add the three new destinations from day one; Winter isn't necessarily the best time to add new routes (although a route to Florida could be launched).
As I mentioned, it's not clear what models the new planes will be; they could well be -300Xs, which would have sufficient range to reach SFO from DUB. We'll see quite shortly, I'm sure.
Another plus will be that the new aircraft can have factory fitted IFE, which means that the new aircraft will have PTVs from day one and I'm sure EI will be reviewing its business class service, which hasn't seen investment in years. The airline has an imminent need, also, to update its IFE in the remaining two A330-200s (only of of the three has PTVs) and this needs to be done before the new Dubai route opens.
The other problem the airline faces (and for which more than the four ordered aircraft might be required) is that the current four A330-300s need to be replaced. These are very early models and barely have the legs for anything west of Chicago; fit these with PTVs and the weight constraint will be too much; of course, they could do this and then just limit the old 330s to BOS and JFK.
I thought it might be possible for them to get A340s, like AY are doing, but they have problems with DUB's runway. Still, it might be possible to get some as a stopgap; it all depends on what's available.
As for the A350 order, EI will be discussing options with the various leasing agencies and Airbus itself, to get the best possible deal. We'll know pretty soon, I would say.
Oh well, 787/777s would have been nice, but the 330s and 350s will serve the airline well. That's Aer Lingus's fleet for the next 20 years, in one form or another. When it next decides to change its fleet, there'll be flying wings and secondhand A380s ...
FCKC From France, joined Nov 2004, 2347 posts, RR: 4 Reply 7, posted (7 years 4 months 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 8064 times:
This is interesting to see that airlines wishing A350 have found a solution to wait for the delivery of this highly efficient plane , and do not drop on the 787 train.
After interim solutions found by TAP (A330) , Finnair (A340) , now Aer Lingus (A330).Who's next ? Viva Macau ? Bangkok Aw ?
Probably the very high resale value of A330 and of course great Airbus deal are strong key in these decisions.
Boeing can't do the same , as the 767 is outdated , and the A330 is far more efficient plane.The sole solution they have , is to buy.........A330s themselves and lease them to airlines !!!!!
Sabenapilot From Belgium, joined Feb 2000, 2697 posts, RR: 49 Reply 8, posted (7 years 4 months 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 8017 times:
Quoting FCKC (Reply 7): Boeing can't do the same, as the 767 is outdated and the A330 is far more efficient plane. The sole solution they have, is to buy.........A330s themselves and lease them to airlines !!!!!
Nah, they prefer to buy A340-300 which they subsequently have to park for years!
More seriously, the A330 is such a good plane, there aren't any up for sale on the second hand market and only 3/5 (depending on the count) are available for lease! Which is why all these stop-gap deals include new-builts members of the A330/A340 family! Seeing the high demand for this plane (the A330 just had its second best year ever last year, despite the 787 and A350), there shouldn't be a problem finding second hand users for these planes early next decade.
Shamrock350 From Ireland, joined Mar 2005, 6106 posts, RR: 15 Reply 9, posted (7 years 4 months 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 8005 times:
This is good news! New A330s for Aer Lingus is a big step for them and their expansion hopes.
I hope we can look foward to an A350 order very soon. New IFE would be great and an updated business class would be even better. I am very happy that EI have gone with Airbus although Boeing would have been great, I just tend to like Airbus a bit more.
AeroTycoon From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 101 posts, RR: 0 Reply 12, posted (7 years 4 months 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 7918 times:
Very simple. In the longhaul markets they want to exand what they are doing well currently, mostly long haul to the states. A330s do the job well for them for now and more A330s means less money spent on training and maintenance.
A longer range aircraft such as the A350 or 787 will very likely be added to their fleet.
Kangar From Ireland, joined Feb 2000, 395 posts, RR: 0 Reply 13, posted (7 years 4 months 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 7872 times:
There could definitely be an argument made at this point that the A330's real world advantage in the market at present is helping to enable A350 sales, i.e. Airbus seem to have a slightly stronger bridging strategy to get airlines through to the forthcoming 787/A350 era.
Kaitak From Ireland, joined Aug 1999, 11956 posts, RR: 37 Reply 14, posted (7 years 4 months 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 7721 times:
Although you're quite correct that EI flew 747s - and for many years, the ability to fly nonstop only came about in 1993-4, shortly before the aircraft left the EI fleet. It's incredible to think that it's already a full decade since the much loved old 747 left the Aer Lingus fleet.
However, for most of the 747's career, it had to fly via SNN and that was quite an experience, because the aircraft was very light indeed - takeoffs were accomplished in about 15-20 seconds!
When the 747s did, finally, fly nonstop, they only flew 747s to New York and while it required full power, they had just enough length to do this. It was frustrating for EI and I'm sure that they must have been appalled when the runway was made so short, but this is never mentioned now; although times have changed a lot, EI never question the govt in question - or govt aviation policy generally.
Btriple7 From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 1139 posts, RR: 9 Reply 15, posted (7 years 4 months 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 7676 times:
Copyright issues?! Well, I learned a new A.net rule today. Only post part of a copyrighted material. Oh well, no worries.
Quoting Kaitak (Reply 6): The ratio of flights between DUB:SNN will be increased from the current 1:1 to 3:1 in Dublin's favour.
That would be nice. It would also bring down the fares.
Quoting Kaitak (Reply 6): EI doesn't necessarily have to add the three new destinations from day one; Winter isn't necessarily the best time to add new routes (although a route to Florida could be launched).
I wouldn't expect EI to start any new routes till the spring of '07. I'm thinking that EI will use the new A330s to replace the other A330s while they a being retrofitted with new interiors. That way EI can get some much needed upgrading done without cancelling any flights.
I expect SFO to be the first new EI longhaul. It has been talked about for almost two years now. Florida doesn't seem to offer a year-round route for EI, whereas SFO will give EI a destination that will sell in summer and winter.
Quoting BestWestern (Reply 10):
This was promised by the new CEO. He will deliver. However, he comes from Emirates, who dont believe in providing the best of the best in terms of business class and IFE.
I think Dermot Mannion already has his name tied to a new EI longhaul product. He will provide a good business class with a modern IFE whether he likes it or not. He has already promised that to EI.
Quoting Cricket (Reply 11): But I thought EI operated the classic 747, that must have used more r/w than a new A340?
I don't think those 747s were fully loaded. I believe they were filled with just enough fuel to make it to New York. An A340 would have to be filled up with a fairly large tank of petrol to make it to SFO. Until DUB extends their runways, A340s are simply too heavy.
This is all great news for Aer Lingus and Airbus. I'm glad EI is getting some new aircraft. I'm looking forward to seeing the new birds.
Shamrock350 From Ireland, joined Mar 2005, 6106 posts, RR: 15 Reply 16, posted (7 years 4 months 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 7624 times:
Quoting Btriple7 (Reply 15): This is all great news for Aer Lingus and Airbus. I'm glad EI is getting some new aircraft. I'm looking forward to seeing the new birds.
Me too! The new A320s that we have seen over the past year look great and I'm sure new A330s we look even better.
I suppose we will hear what model the new A330s will be very soon? I think we are talking -300Xs?
Kangar From Ireland, joined Feb 2000, 395 posts, RR: 0 Reply 17, posted (7 years 4 months 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 7373 times:
I gotta admit, I would've loved to see a 777 in EI's colours, although the A330s definitely look the part. Would be nice to see an overhaul of the long distance economy entertainment and business class product though.
One question, does anyone know what the plans are to finance this purchase?
Egmcman From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2005, 898 posts, RR: 9 Reply 19, posted (7 years 4 months 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 7254 times:
Quoting Btriple7 (Reply 15): I'm thinking that EI will use the new A330s to replace the other A330s while they a being retrofitted with new interiors. That way EI can get some much needed upgrading done without canceling any flights.
I heard on another list that some of the older 330's IFE can't be upgraded anyone know why?
Are these new 330's GE going to be powered?
Shamrock350 From Ireland, joined Mar 2005, 6106 posts, RR: 15 Reply 21, posted (7 years 4 months 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 6529 times:
Quoting Kangar (Reply 17): I gotta admit, I would've loved to see a 777 in EI's colours
777s would look very nice and and would sort of remind me of the KLM 777s. All my 777 flights have been very good. It is one of the most comfortable aircraft ever and Aer Lingus must have thought very hard about them but I am very happy with the idea of flying a brand new A330 with Aer Lingus.
Just looked and the front page of airliers.net and noticed both this topic and the Ryanair one are next to each other, for some reason it made me smile thinking that they will soon go into a fierce battle at DUB.
Btriple7 From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 1139 posts, RR: 9 Reply 22, posted (7 years 4 months 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 6474 times:
Quoting Egmcman (Reply 19): I heard on another list that some of the older 330's IFE can't be upgraded anyone know why?
The old A333 could not be equipped with a modern IFE because of weight restrictions. Modern IFE adds quite a few pounds to the airframe. If you put a modern IFE on the old A333, they would not have the range to reach even ORD. The new A330-300Xs, however, have the range to make it to the westcoast of the US with a modern IFE. Kaitak explains it quite well here:
Quoting Kaitak (Reply 6): The other problem the airline faces (and for which more than the four ordered aircraft might be required) is that the current four A330-300s need to be replaced. These are very early models and barely have the legs for anything west of Chicago; fit these with PTVs and the weight constraint will be too much; of course, they could do this and then just limit the old 330s to BOS and JFK.
WhiteHatter From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 23, posted (7 years 4 months 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 6399 times:
Quoting Btriple7 (Reply 22): Presumably yes. I doubt EI would change engine manufactures now. GE gets the job done well.
longstanding arrangement, GE powers the EI fleet. It's also an indicator of Willie Walsh and the way he thinks, which is GE powered Airbus aircraft are first choice to him for longhaul. That was attributed to him when he was shadowing Rod Eddington at BA.
BA could stay with RR but GE could be welcomed back into the fold at British Airways, especially now the engine contract has been renegotiated and signed. But to get back on topic, EI policy is GE for large engines and CFM for shorthaulers.
Quoting PM (Reply 2):
These A330s are a stop-gap. They aren't being ordered instead of 787s. The report suggests that a decision has not been made between the 787 and A350. (Though I agree that Airbus must have an advantage at present.)
It would indicate that Airbus can't take the order as a given. If they want the next fleet tranche then they have to fight for it. Which is as it should be considering that both aircraft offer a GE option, which is EI fleet policy. Although preference for Airbus will count for a lot.
Smokeyrosco From Ireland, joined Dec 2005, 2112 posts, RR: 14 Reply 24, posted (7 years 4 months 3 days ago) and read 6038 times:
Quoting WhiteHatter (Reply 23): It would indicate that Airbus can't take the order as a given. If they want the next fleet tranche then they have to fight for it. Which is as it should be considering that both aircraft offer a GE option, which is EI fleet policy. Although preference for Airbus will count for a lot.
I am still 99.9999999% sure that that they will go 350, in my opinion this statement is to keep Airbus on their toes, if the deal is not signed but airbus thinks they have it, they could jack up the price, thats business. If you think it's still possible you won't get it you'll keep your prices lower.
25 Aerokiwi: I think it is telling that EI did not place an order or announce any intention to purchase the A350 with this order, as TAP did with their A330 purcha
26 Kaitak: Aerokiwi, I think it's more a matter of dollars and cents; Aer Lingus needs a fleet of about 16 widebody aircraft by the middle of the next decade and
27 EI101: So the consensus is that all of these will be 330-300Xs, and not a mix of -300 and -200, or even just -200 series? I agree with Kaitak - Im sure that
28 Btriple7: Three years?! I think EI will have choosen between the A350/787 (must likely A350) by the end of '06 (if not then early '07). The order is no more th
29 Babybus: I really don't understand why EI doesn't go the whole hog and get a couple of A340's too. They have plans to expand their long hauls and so a mix of A
30 EI101: Btriple7, Don't get me wrong, I think its possible that a 350/787 order will be made in the next year, and really, Id be delighted if it was! That ord
31 Smokeyrosco: Simply put they are too big for DUB even with the new planned runway taken into account. EDIT: Is there any other link to this story?[Edited 2006-01-
32 Legacyins: As stated above, Dublin's runways cannot handel the A340.
33 KL808: With A340's they can also operate to South Africa and maybe even Asia. But my hunch is that the 4 extra aircrafts might be split in two. 2 -200's and
34 Elagabal: Dear God, I thought it'd never happen. To say nothing of my crowing, three cheers for the EU! See below for further light reading - Kaitak, you proba
35 Planemanofnz: Great news for Aer Lingus. I can't wait to see them finally launch new routes into Asia (not middle east.) I am hoping for either Singapore or Hong-Ko
36 ChiGB1973: I think, oh, maybe 10% ($40 million) should be used to increase employee moral and better service. The worst flight I ever participated was on EI, SNN
37 Btriple7: That might be true, but let's remember it is only January of 2006. If politics doesn't stand in the way, EI should (hopefully) be privatized by the e
38 Jacobin777: more like GE-powered Boeing...especially given that the 777-300ER and 747-8I are exclusively GE-powered aircraft....not to mention, Eddington has alr
39 Btriple7: Thanks for the link!!! That's rather optimistic for this order. Maybe later on this could happen. Oh, it would like heaven if EI had AVOD. I think th
40 EI101: Premium economy? AVODs? This from the airline who brought (and still brings you) the worst cup of coffee in Europe, my, times they are a-changing. Ser
41 Aerokiwi: Was there any indication by EI that they are interested specifically in the A350 over the 787? If there is please post a link becasue I haven't heard
42 Btriple7: That's the debate right now. I think it can be assumed that EI is more interested in the A350. Since EI has just ordered four A330s, it would lead on
43 Aerlinguscargo: Why do you think the 200 is better than the 300, from a cargo and passenger standpoint the 300 is stronger. The 200's only advantage over the 300 is
44 Planemanofnz: I disagree. EI do not need heaps of seats on all of it's services - only to JFK and sometimes BOS. The added range of the 332 will allow not only ext
45 Aerlinguscargo: The equipment on two of the daily JFK flights is currently 200 series. The range is not needed on the JFK flights and by using the 200 EI looses carg
46 Planemanofnz: If EI is currently using the 200 series on the route it probably will only be because MCO has been dropped, DXB doesn't launch untill march and LAX i
47 Shamrock350: Aer Lingus flights have been very full recently on this route and I doubt that Aer Lingus would fly the A33-200 to JFK anytime soon. As Kaitak said a
48 WhiteHatter: One: Willie Walsh made the statements. Cheerleading can't rewrite what he said. Two: Rod Eddington can like Tupolevs for all the difference it makes.
49 Elagabal: LOL - but figure in proportion with the culture: ever tried AY? Service with a smile, but for a nation of famous coffee drinkers, ye gods what dreadf
50 ClassicLover: I really hope they do upgrade the J class and the IFE. I am flying to Los Angeles on Saturday on a J class around the world ticket. It would make sen
51 Trex8: so the actual price airlines pay for A330s has risen to US$100 million each now! a 20% increase in over 3-4 years compared to the prices NW and CI pai
52 Shenzhen: I actually think that EI not ordering the A350 in conjunction with the A330 order is bad news for the A350. If they were going to purchase, then they
53 Kangar: Not necessarily, EI don't exactly have the cash to commit to a bunch of A350s right now, I reckon that is the only real roadblock right now. Once fin
54 Shenzhen: If it is in their long term business plan, then why not commit. Its not like they need any financing the next few years for any A350 order. Cheers
55 Smokeyrosco: EI needs to privatized before it can make any major move on from where it is now really, as Kaitak has said numerous times the biggest problem is the
56 Shamrock350: It's going to be long time before we see these features on Aer Lingus A330s but maybe when they start longer flights to far east Asia and Africa. I h
57 Kaitak: I hear today that Comrade Minister was in Singapore recently, along with the CEO of Dublin Airport, to talk to SQ and TG. Can't see either of them fly
58 EIRules: Cant somehow see eith SQ or TG coming to DUB anytime soon, if I had to put money on an Asian airline to DUB I'd maybe say CX or one of the Chinese car
59 Gigneil: That's ridiculous. If 747s and 777s can take off and land at Dublin, so can any model of A340 ever made. N
60 Legacyins: It has nothing to do with the size of the aircraft. The A 340 needs a longer runway to depart than a 747 or 777. So, not so ridiculous.
61 Planemanofnz: Eh, no. You do know that both aircraft are very different.
62 Kaitak: Gigneil, the A340 is notorious in the industry as having awful takeoff and climb performance; not quite on a par with the original KC-135s, but pretty
63 Smokeyrosco: Kaitak, I have a question for you, where do you stand on the proposed new runway? I've looked over the information on the DAA's website and I have to
64 Kaitak: Well, once it's operational, I'd prefer not to be standing on any part of it! Joking apart (sorry, I just couldn't resist it!), my big concern with th
65 Pilot21: Kaitak Having just looked over the new runway plans on the DAA website, I'd be pretty shocked if the new runway couldn't handle fully laden jets on 13
66 Trex8: not true, a 773 needs more ! its a function of weight and take off thrust FAA TO field length - from 2006 AWST Source Book A343 10450ft 744ER 10900ft
67 Kaitak: It looks like it may not be over yet ... According to a post on PPRUNE, Boeing is still not giving up on this. It's reported that the order may now be
68 Penpusher: "Incidentally, it appears that the 332s are, finally, being refitted; one is apparently "in the shop" at the moment." Sorry to disapoint but the 332's