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Does Lufthansa Make Money On The BBJ A319?  
User currently offlineOyKIE From Norway, joined Jan 2006, 2673 posts, RR: 4
Posted (8 years 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 9086 times:

In today's ATWOnline an article says the BBJ and A319 has gotten new lie-flat seats giving a seat load of 44 (BBJ) and 48 (A319)

http://www.atwonline.com/news/other.html?issueDate=1/23/2006

My question is. Does Lufthansa make money on these routes? Then why is the 737 or A319 not more popular on intercontinental routes?


Dream no small dream; it lacks magic. Dream large, then go make that dream real - Donald Douglas
28 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineTriStar500 From Germany, joined Nov 1999, 4692 posts, RR: 44
Reply 1, posted (8 years 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 9074 times:

Considering the airline has just spent a considerable amount of money on the refurbishment and that the service has been extended from thhe initial one to three (?) almost daily services now, the question re: profitability answers itself.  Smile

We are starting to see more of the C-class only flights with narrowbody equipment - besides LH, also KL and LX are now offering such flights, so IMO the potential of this niche product is just beginning to unfold.



Homer: Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true!
User currently offlineAPFPilot1985 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (8 years 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 9072 times:

Quoting OyKIE (Thread starter):
My question is. Does Lufthansa make money on these routes?

I don't think they would be flying it if they didn't... right?

Quoting OyKIE (Thread starter):
Then why is the 737 or A319 not more popular on intercontinental routes?

Because the amount of available seats either meets/or exceeds the amount needed in the market of high class narrow body transatlantic flights.


User currently offlineAPFPilot1985 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (8 years 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 9059 times:

Quoting TriStar500 (Reply 1):

We are starting to see more of the C-class only flights with narrowbody equipment - besides LH, also KL and LX are now offering such flights, so IMO the potential of this niche product is just beginning to unfold.

Also don't forget the AF Dedicate A319's


User currently offlineCarpethead From Japan, joined Aug 2004, 2908 posts, RR: 3
Reply 4, posted (8 years 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 9035 times:

If the flight is being run by say on average 30 paying pax each $4,000 or so it will make money. The same route could be operated by a 763 or 332 but there isn't much cargo and the back of the plane is either empty or full of low-bucket fare pax that paid say $250. Then it makes more economical sense to switch to an all-business class BBJ or 319CJ.

User currently offlineOyKIE From Norway, joined Jan 2006, 2673 posts, RR: 4
Reply 5, posted (8 years 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 8967 times:

Thanks for great answers! What destinations does LX, KL and AF fly to?

Quoting Carpethead (Reply 4):
If the flight is being run by say on average 30 paying pax each $4,000 or so it will make money.

Does anybody have the loadfactor for LH's routes?



Dream no small dream; it lacks magic. Dream large, then go make that dream real - Donald Douglas
User currently offlineDLKAPA From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (8 years 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 8929 times:

This could potentially be a good way to open up smaller business markets to international business travel, for example places like ABQ, DEN, AUS, STL, IND, RDU, MEM, TUS, and TUL could all benefit from this type of low capacity business class service.

User currently offlineOyKIE From Norway, joined Jan 2006, 2673 posts, RR: 4
Reply 7, posted (8 years 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 8902 times:

Quoting DLKAPA (Reply 6):
This could potentially be a good way to open up smaller business markets to international business travel, for example places like ABQ, DEN, AUS, STL, IND, RDU, MEM, TUS, and TUL could all benefit from this type of low capacity business class service.

I agree with this one. I believe that this segment will escalate from now and really take of when the 737NG and A320 replacements are available.



Dream no small dream; it lacks magic. Dream large, then go make that dream real - Donald Douglas
User currently offlineHailstone From Germany, joined Nov 2000, 408 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (8 years 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 8826 times:

EUR3060.00 round trip DUS EWR DUS. as far as i gather these flights are pretty well booked - work with 40 sold seats (90% load factor), eg EUR120K in revenues per round trip.
how much does it cost to operate an a319 or 737BBJ for 14 hours of flight, 2 crews, etc ??


User currently offlineColumba From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 7025 posts, RR: 4
Reply 9, posted (8 years 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 8767 times:

Quoting TriStar500 (Reply 1):
We are starting to see more of the C-class only flights with narrowbody equipment - besides LH, also KL and LX are now offering such flights, so IMO the potential of this niche product is just beginning to unfold.

Qatar is also flying to TXL using a A319LR, its maybe not C-class only but it is also a long range flight using narrowbody equipment.

http://www.berlin-airport.de/PubDeut...ldarchiv/aktuelles/TXLQatar03.html



It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
User currently offlineLTBEWR From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 12877 posts, RR: 12
Reply 10, posted (8 years 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 8745 times:

Some of these flights originate out of EWR. There are a number of the USA headquarters of German and Swiss based companies, including phamacutical, cars, industrial machinery, chemicals businesses in the NY City - Northern New Jersey region. That means a stedy demand to move around a number of business executives and managers between the above notes areas whom are normally use Biz/1st transportation. Also, EWR has excellent connections from other cities throughout the USA, including a major hub of CO.

User currently offlineOyKIE From Norway, joined Jan 2006, 2673 posts, RR: 4
Reply 11, posted (8 years 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 8717 times:

Quoting Hailstone (Reply 8):
EUR3060.00 round trip DUS EWR DUS. as far as i gather these flights are pretty well booked - work with 40 sold seats (90% load factor), eg EUR120K in revenues per round trip.
how much does it cost to operate an a319 or 737BBJ for 14 hours of flight, 2 crews, etc ??

Wow. That is a high load factor. Maybe I should try to connect thru Dusseldorf the next time I am headed to the US. Anyone know if Stand-by passengers are allowed on these flights?

Also. With the 737 cruise speed of 0.785 Mach. How much more time would you need from DUS-EWR, than in a 787 going 0.85 Mach?



Dream no small dream; it lacks magic. Dream large, then go make that dream real - Donald Douglas
User currently offlineVfw614 From Germany, joined Dec 2001, 3901 posts, RR: 5
Reply 12, posted (8 years 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 8691 times:

Air France Dedicate is not a C-Class only product. It is just a smaller narrowbody used for medium-to-longhaul destinations.

User currently offlineOyKIE From Norway, joined Jan 2006, 2673 posts, RR: 4
Reply 13, posted (8 years 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 8628 times:

Quoting Vfw614 (Reply 12):
It is just a smaller narrowbody used for medium-to-longhaul destinations.

Is Qatar and Air France the only national carriers to have bought new A319LR for commercial use?



Dream no small dream; it lacks magic. Dream large, then go make that dream real - Donald Douglas
User currently offlineWhiteHatter From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (8 years 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 8600 times:

What you have to consider too is that these flights are working routes which the operators have iron-clad contracts with customers for. The client will frequently pay to have a block booking of seats available as something akin to a corporate shuttle.

It saves them money over the cost of chartering in aircraft, or lost time due to seats not being available at the desired timings. I believe AA has a similar arrangement to provide some block booked seats on the RDU-LGW service.

These contracts are highly confidential due to the numbers involved but they do exist, and are acknowledged as existing by the airlines. LH makes regular and good money on the services that way. It's worth it to the companies as they will always have seats available at short notice on the flight they want, and that improves productivity.


User currently offlineOyKIE From Norway, joined Jan 2006, 2673 posts, RR: 4
Reply 15, posted (8 years 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 8377 times:

Quoting WhiteHatter (Reply 14):
It saves them money over the cost of chartering in aircraft, or lost time due to seats not being available at the desired timings. I believe AA has a similar arrangement to provide some block booked seats on the RDU-LGW service.

What kind of Airplane are used on this route?



Dream no small dream; it lacks magic. Dream large, then go make that dream real - Donald Douglas
User currently offlineEgmcman From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2005, 898 posts, RR: 8
Reply 16, posted (8 years 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 8351 times:

Quoting OyKIE (Reply 15):
What kind of Airplane are used on this route?

777


User currently offlineLHUSA From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 560 posts, RR: 2
Reply 17, posted (8 years 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 8229 times:

Quoting OyKIE (Reply 11):
Anyone know if Stand-by passengers are allowed on these flights?

You sure can. Just make sure that you buy C-class stand-by/ID ticket. Very rarely is the ORD-DUS fight fully booked, so you almost always get on. Typically about 4-5 stand-by pax get on every flight. Make sure that you list at least 24 hours in advance, because with such a small number of total pax, they only order enough food for those listed. But, if you list early enough, they always make sure to order meals for the space-available pax, too.


User currently offlineLHUSA From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 560 posts, RR: 2
Reply 18, posted (8 years 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 8196 times:

I just read the article and it's not entirely correct. The new seats are only in the BBJ and are not currently on the A319 equipment. Not a huge error since the A319s will be re-fitted shortly, but just thought I would point that out.

User currently offlineQantas744ER From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 1280 posts, RR: 4
Reply 19, posted (8 years 2 months 3 weeks 3 days ago) and read 6980 times:

I did MUC-EWR-MUC 4 times this year with my dad, in 2005. He always uses this service with the BBJ instead of the LH JFK service. My dad works a lot and likes to have his privacy, personally i like flying on the bigger planes, the BBJ is nice but nothing compared to a A330-300 Big grin. I think the seats in the Private Air BBJ`s installed now, are nothing compared to LH`s C class seats. When will the refurbishment be complete?


Cheers Leo



Happiness is V1 in Lagos
User currently offlineFLY777UAL From United States of America, joined May 1999, 4512 posts, RR: 3
Reply 20, posted (8 years 2 months 3 weeks 3 days ago) and read 6980 times:

Quoting LHUSA (Reply 17):
Just make sure that you buy C-class stand-by/ID ticket

I was pretty sure I bought a full Y ID-90 when I flew DUS-EWR on the BBJ (LH had full Y fares on there at the time, not sure if they offer them now).

Are the new seats the same as are installed in the BBJ2 they operate for Swiss?

F L Y 7 7 7 U A L


User currently offlineLHUSA From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 560 posts, RR: 2
Reply 21, posted (8 years 2 months 3 weeks 3 days ago) and read 6980 times:

Quoting Qantas744ER (Reply 19):
I think the seats in the Private Air BBJ`s installed now, are nothing compared to LH`s C class seats. When will the refurbishment be complete?

The BBJ flying EWR-MUC has already been retrofitted with an improved business class seat, but not the model that is in the A333. The new seats that are in the A333 are too heavy for the BBJ, so unfortunately those will never be on the executive jet services. I'm not sure whent the A319 are due for the re-fit, but it should be within the next couple of months.


User currently offlineLHUSA From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 560 posts, RR: 2
Reply 22, posted (8 years 2 months 3 weeks 3 days ago) and read 6972 times:

Quoting FLY777UAL (Reply 20):
I was pretty sure I bought a full Y ID-90 when I flew DUS-EWR on the BBJ (LH had full Y fares on there at the time, not sure if they offer them now).

Hi there.
The Y-fares were eliminated on all of the EJ services. It used to be possible to purchase a Y fare for these flights, but now it's strictly a Business Class fare structure (C,D,Z,I,R). Nevertheless, it's always possible that they would allow you to fly now on a full Y ID ticket, but it depends on the agent's mood at the time. I just alwasy buy the full C fare, since I don't want to be left behind (especially in DUS.)

Quoting FLY777UAL (Reply 20):
Are the new seats the same as are installed in the BBJ2 they operate for Swiss?

I'm actually not too familiar with Swiss's BBJ product right now. I'm sure this will be changing in the next couple of months though  Wink.


User currently offlineFLY777UAL From United States of America, joined May 1999, 4512 posts, RR: 3
Reply 23, posted (8 years 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 5577 times:

Thanks, LHUSA! I'll have to remember that next time I hop over to DUS!

F L Y 7 7 7 U A L


User currently offlineOyKIE From Norway, joined Jan 2006, 2673 posts, RR: 4
Reply 24, posted (8 years 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 4184 times:

Quoting LHUSA (Reply 17):
You sure can. Just make sure that you buy C-class stand-by/ID ticket. Very rarely is the ORD-DUS fight fully booked, so you almost always get on. Typically about 4-5 stand-by pax get on every flight. Make sure that you list at least 24 hours in advance, because with such a small number of total pax, they only order enough food for those listed. But, if you list early enough, they always make sure to order meals for the space-available pax, too.

Thank you very much LHUSA! I will try my best to fly this service next time I am crossing the pond  Smile

Do you know how much more time the BBJ use to New York, than say a A340 / 747?



Dream no small dream; it lacks magic. Dream large, then go make that dream real - Donald Douglas
25 Squirrel83 : I would like to know as well . .
26 LHUSA : Not too much longer. Here's a breakdown of flights' durations. EWR-MUC BBJ 8:05 JFK-MUC A343 7:50 EWR-DUS A319 7:25 EWR-FRA A343 7:35 JFK-FRA 747 7:1
27 Gigneil : It isn't, but it is heavily C. Half the floor space. N
28 OyKIE : Thank you for your figures. I found them very interesting.
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