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Private Jet Crashes Off Runway In Carlsbad Near SD  
User currently offlinePanAm747 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 4242 posts, RR: 9
Posted (8 years 2 months 3 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 10925 times:

http://www.kfmb.com/stories/story.35912.html

A private jet coming in for a landing at Palomar airport, a small commercial airport in northern San Diego county, came in too fast and skidded off the runway, crashed into a self-storage facility retaining wall, and burst into flames.

The helicopter shot I saw on this morning's news had a green tail visible - I was afraid at first that it was an America West RJ, but apparently that is not the case. Still a very sad incident.


Pan Am:The World's Most Experienced Airline - P(oor) S(ailor's) A(irline): San Diego's Hometown Airline-Catch Our Smile!
34 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineAerobalance From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 4674 posts, RR: 48
Reply 1, posted (8 years 2 months 3 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 10910 times:

News reports now saying there were 'multiple fatalities'. Not sure if it was passengers on the plane or people in the building that was hit. Very sad.


"Sing a song, play guitar, make it snappy..."
User currently offlineOPNLguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (8 years 2 months 3 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 10777 times:

One of the local stations said it was a Cessna 560, and based on that, Flightaware shows:

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/N86CE

Registration:

http://registry.faa.gov/aircraftinquiry/NNumSQL.asp?NNumbertxt=86CE

There is a photo of N86CE in the Anet database, but it's back from 1992 when the number was affixed to a G-II...

Weather:

KCRQ 241453Z AUTO 06006KT 10SM CLR 14/M09 A2993 RMK AO2 SLP133 T01391094 53013 $
KCRQ 241353Z AUTO 08005KT 10SM CLR 10/M08 A2991 RMK AO2 SLP128 T01001078 $

The airport:

http://www.airnav.com/airport/KCRQ

[Edited 2006-01-24 17:51:28]

User currently offlineBBJII From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2005, 850 posts, RR: 4
Reply 3, posted (8 years 2 months 3 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 10763 times:

Not another private A/C !!!!!!


The FAA keep moving the goal post for Private Operators after every incident.

My thought are with the families of those involved.  Sad

I hope the FAA will investigate and then issue policy changes, rather than issue rash changes to policy, before the facts are known.


 wave 



Remember: The Bird Hit You, You Didn't Hit The Bird.....
User currently offlineDaleaholic From UK - England, joined Oct 2005, 3204 posts, RR: 13
Reply 4, posted (8 years 2 months 3 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 10742 times:

Flightaware shows that it has arrived, does it automatically put 'Arrived'? Thought they might have some sort of Accident text.


Religion is an illusion of childhood... Outgrown under proper education.
User currently offlinePanAm747 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 4242 posts, RR: 9
Reply 5, posted (8 years 2 months 3 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 10583 times:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060124/ap_on_re_us/calif_plane_crash

Further update.

Quote:
I hope the FAA will investigate and then issue policy changes, rather than issue rash changes to policy, before the facts are known.

I certainly hope so, too - general aviation and military aviation are much different cases for NIMBY's, so I don't forsee any changes to policies here.



Pan Am:The World's Most Experienced Airline - P(oor) S(ailor's) A(irline): San Diego's Hometown Airline-Catch Our Smile!
User currently offlineBoeing7E7 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (8 years 2 months 3 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 10484 times:

Quoting PanAm747 (Reply 5):
I certainly hope so, too - general aviation and military aviation are much different cases for NIMBY's, so I don't forsee any changes to policies here.

The larger problem is convincing developers that building around airports isn't such a good idea.

In the end, the Cities themselves are the ones that approve development projects. Some cities that operate airports are stupid enough to allow incompatible development. In other cases where airports are run by Special Districts, the City overrides the recommendations by the Special District. Maybe a few hundred dead people one of these days will do the trick. It's a sick thought, yes, but it's an unfortunate reality.

The irony that this occured in San Diego County:

http://www.nctimes.com/articles/2005...ws/californian/22_23_095_20_05.txt

http://archives.californiaaviation.org/ganews/msg11431.html

http://www.nctimes.com/articles/2005...ws/top_stories/23_19_334_16_05.txt

[Edited 2006-01-24 18:58:39]

User currently offlineAv8rPHX From United States of America, joined Mar 2003, 713 posts, RR: 9
Reply 7, posted (8 years 2 months 3 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 10428 times:

Quoting PanAm747 (Thread starter):
The helicopter shot I saw on this morning's news had a green tail visible - I was afraid at first that it was an America West RJ, but apparently that is not the case. Still a very sad incident.

We dont fly a RJ into CRQ, you may have seen one of our Dash 8s though.


User currently offlineTom in NO From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 7194 posts, RR: 35
Reply 8, posted (8 years 2 months 3 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 10374 times:

My brother works off El Camino Real (which runs along the east end of Carlsbad) a mile or so north of the airport. With the accident along the west end of the airport, he says he didn't see anything when he turned from westbound Palomar Airport Road onto northbound El Camino Real around 7am:
http://maps.yahoo.com/maps_result?ad...fornia&country=us&new=1&name=&qty=
However he did say that co-workers who were in the area around 6:30am did see the smoke.

RIP those who died.

Tom at MSY



"The criminal ineptitude makes you furious"-Bruce Springsteen, after seeing firsthand the damage from Hurricane Katrina
User currently offlinePanAm747 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 4242 posts, RR: 9
Reply 9, posted (8 years 2 months 3 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 10338 times:

Quote:
We dont fly a RJ into CRQ, you may have seen one of our Dash 8s though.

Thankfully, I didn't see either!! There was a T-tail with a bit of green on it, and that's all that was visible from the overhead helicopter shot.



Pan Am:The World's Most Experienced Airline - P(oor) S(ailor's) A(irline): San Diego's Hometown Airline-Catch Our Smile!
User currently offlineAv8rPHX From United States of America, joined Mar 2003, 713 posts, RR: 9
Reply 10, posted (8 years 2 months 3 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 10293 times:

Quoting PanAm747 (Reply 9):
Thankfully, I didn't see either!! There was a T-tail with a bit of green on it, and that's all that was visible from the overhead helicopter shot.

Yeah that was probably our Dash, we have a 630 departure to PHX from CRQ. One of my friends in SAN called me and told me about it, inquiring if it was our plane, still a very sad situation.


User currently offlineAerobalance From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 4674 posts, RR: 48
Reply 11, posted (8 years 2 months 3 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 10146 times:

A witness is now stating that it came in gear up and a very high rate of speed and descent.

http://www.nbc4.tv/news/6397504/detail.html

Something must have been wrong with that aircraft, with a 4900' runway that would be plenty of time to still slow down to a reasonable speed with out brakes. As it is that plane just smashed through the ILS shack and flew down the slope into the other building. Very sad and very scary - RIP to all souls aboard.



"Sing a song, play guitar, make it snappy..."
User currently offlineOPNLguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (8 years 2 months 3 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 10087 times:

From the linked article...

"when it skidded off the end of the runway" and
"Its landing gear was up "

Good example of the conflicting information that comes out in the first few hours after an accident...


User currently offlineAirWillie6475 From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 2448 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (8 years 2 months 3 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 10068 times:

According to news the flames were caused by the plane hitting the storage units. The storage units at the end of the runway contained flammable materials or liquids according to the local news. Why would someone with a brain store flammable liquids at the end of any runway? Look what happened.

User currently offlineBoeing7E7 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (8 years 2 months 3 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 10007 times:

Quoting AirWillie6475 (Reply 13):
Why would someone with a brain store flammable liquids at the end of any runway?

Because they weren't storage units containing flamable materials???

They were localizer support platforms and a localizer.



The storage units were off airport. I think you have potential for a career in news casting.

[Edited 2006-01-24 23:12:10]

User currently offlineAirWillie6475 From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 2448 posts, RR: 1
Reply 15, posted (8 years 2 months 3 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 9453 times:

Boeing 7E7 they eventually hit the storage units.

User currently offlineMtnWest1979 From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 2390 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (8 years 2 months 3 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 9351 times:
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Quoting AirWillie6475 (Reply 13):
Why would someone with a brain store flammable liquids at the end of any runway? Look what happened.

Well, maybe they expect the air traffic to stay on the airport.



"If it ain't broke, don't fix it!"
User currently offlinePSAjet17 From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 317 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (8 years 2 months 3 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 9155 times:

The crew is identified as pilot Jack Francis and co-pilot was Andy Garrett. The plane was registered to Goship Air LLC of Ketchum, Idaho. One of the victims was identified by the Associated Press as Frank H. Jellinek Jr., 59, chairman emeritus of Fisher Scientific International, a Hampton, N.H., company that provides products and services for labs and clinics. The forth victim is the wife of Goship Air owner Ketchum City Councilman Steve Shafran.

After failing to stop on the runway, the Citation 560 plowed through a navigation structure (ILS) and then went down an enbankment where it hit a commercial storage facility located off the airport property.


User currently offlineSocalfive From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (8 years 2 months 3 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 8861 times:

I've flown in and out of Palomar several times. The runway runs dramatically uphill from east to west and literally has no runoff area at the west end, then drops off about 150' down the embankment. In other words there is no margin for error.

User currently offlinePeachAir From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 364 posts, RR: 3
Reply 19, posted (8 years 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 7208 times:

An eerie coincidence, just found this article. There was another fatal incident in 1994 (A Bell 206) with the same registration - N86CE)

http://members.aol.com/spur317e/chalet.htm

Peachair


User currently offlineBoeing7E7 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (8 years 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 6496 times:

Quoting AirWillie6475 (Reply 15):
Boeing 7E7 they eventually hit the storage units.

Hence my point above about compatible land use.


User currently offlineAv8trxx From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 657 posts, RR: 6
Reply 21, posted (8 years 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 6253 times:

Quoting Aerobalance (Reply 11):
A witness is now stating that it came in gear up and a very high rate of speed and descent.

Although it is no longer available, the Flight Aware nav log showed that the entire approach was at 190kts or greater. (All but one radar return showed speeds in excess of 200 kts) The last return was 227 kts @ 300 feet.
Pretty darn fast to be on approach to a 4800 ft strip.


User currently offline2H4 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 8955 posts, RR: 60
Reply 22, posted (8 years 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 6108 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
HEAD DATABASE EDITOR




Quoting Aerobalance (Reply 24):
Are they designed to crash? Should an airfield be designed for this 'reality'? As a pilot, I never believe in crashing the plane I fly - it sounds as if you do.

Like so many issues discussed in this forum, this is being presented as black-or-white, all-or-nothing issue

Should measures be taken to minimize injuries/fatalities in the event of a short landing or overrun? Absolutely. Planes do crash, and Boeing7E7 makes a great point, pointing out that ignoring that reality is foolish. The second we become reactive...rather than proactive...to flight safety issues, people will die unnecessarily as a result.

At the same time, we cannot realistically expect airfields be built in remote areas and covered with padding. An airport that is absolutely perfect in the technical sense is not necessarily going to work well in the commercial sense, and vice versa.

The reality is, like many aspects of aviation, compromises have to be made. It's not all-or-nothing. In this case, measures absolutely should be taken to increase the safety of the surrounding areas of an airport, but as soon as those measures produce a significantly negative impact on the useability of the airport, they've been taken too far.




2H4





Intentionally Left Blank
User currently offlineBoeing7E7 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (8 years 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 6101 times:

Quoting 2H4 (Reply 26):
Should measures be taken to minimize injuries/fatalities in the event of a short landing or overrun? Absolutely. Planes do crash, and Boeing7E7 makes a great point, pointing out that ignoring that reality is foolish. The second we become reactive...rather than proactive...to flight safety issues, people will die unnecessarily as a result.

Precisely my point, and as it be the Developers and poor City Management in San Diego County have ignored these realities.

[Edited 2006-01-26 16:44:48]

User currently offlineApodino From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 4124 posts, RR: 6
Reply 24, posted (8 years 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 6086 times:

How long before Schiavo files a lawsuit on behalf of the victims families?

25 Aerobalance : AS CRQ is a favorite destination of mine, I'm intrigued as to what happened here, was it something that the pilot could have overcame, did he have to
26 SkyHarborsHome : Except for Mesa, do any other commercials fly into CRQ?
27 PanAm747 : According to the a.net computer system, the code for Carlsbad, CA, is CLD. United Express flies into Carlsbad (to LAX), and America West flies to PHX.
28 Post contains links Boeing7E7 : Time to cut back on some of the speculation: http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/n...unty/20060126-9999-7m26cessna.html
29 Aerobalance : From the article: "thrust reversers, used to slow the aircraft, were stowed". OK, why was this? "landing gear was down" alright - so why did this pla
30 2H4 : What makes you say that? The NTSB investigator has only stated that there was a discrepancy in the aircraft's speed data, and the website quotes from
31 OPNLguy : I notice this latest article mentions it went through "barricades" at the end. Previous media reports and a photo here indicate it was the ILS stuff a
32 Post contains images 2H4 : Don't be ridiculous, OPNL. Surely, the media would never base their reporting on uneducated assumptions. After all, these are professionals we're tal
33 Post contains images OPNLguy : Good thing the debris wasn't RED-and-white; they could have come to the conclusion that the jet hit a barber shop on the way in...
34 Jumppilot : I agree 2h4. Although Flightaware is very useful. It's not entirely accurate. I've compared many of my own flights to flightaware and it's been way of
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