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AC Fined By Brazilian Authority Due To Delays  
User currently offlineMaiYYZ From Canada, joined Jul 2001, 35 posts, RR: 0
Posted (8 years 6 months 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 5802 times:

Reading today's Brazilian newspaper "Folha de S. Paulo", I learn that Air Canada was fined for a undisclosed amount (which could be anything between R$212, up to R$3.200.000,00, or C$100 up to C$1.500.000,00 ...). The text inform that also other airlines both from Brazil and overseas where fined. The reason for the fine is that the the PROCON, who oversees the consumers rights in Brazil, received many complaints from passengers about flight delays in GRU. Air Canada, however, is cited twice in the text. Last December 13th, more than 200 passengers enroute from GRU to TYO via YYZ had they flight cancelled by AC. Again yesterday, January 26th, the GRU-YYZ flight was delayed for more than 12 hours.

The link for the text: (sorry, in Portuguese...)

http://www1.folha.uol.com.br/folha/cotidiano/ult95u117692.shtml


CU IL62M, CP 763, QN A310, QN B757, AC 763, CU A320, SP A310, AC A340, AC B773, AA B772, AA B738, AA CRJ600
25 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offline777ER From New Zealand, joined Dec 2003, 12082 posts, RR: 18
Reply 1, posted (8 years 6 months 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 5729 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

Who should the airlines be fined? If the delay or a flight being cancelled is not the airlines fault

User currently offlineOHLHD From Finland, joined Dec 2004, 3962 posts, RR: 25
Reply 2, posted (8 years 6 months 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 5723 times:

Quoting 777ER (Reply 1):
If the delay or a flight being cancelled is not the airlines fault

Who´s fault is it then?


User currently offlineCrownvic From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 1864 posts, RR: 5
Reply 3, posted (8 years 6 months 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 5713 times:

Regardless of who's fault it is, I would think that AC has some pretty good clout to get out of this fine considering the business they are giving to EMB! Afterall, they did snub their homegrown Bombardier!!! Smile

User currently offlineSebring From Canada, joined Jul 2004, 1663 posts, RR: 14
Reply 4, posted (8 years 6 months 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 5701 times:

The problem with fining airlines for delays or cancellations should be obvious: since all airlines have mechanical problems, fining airlines for such delays will put pressure on crews to cut safety margins. Ultimately, there will be a terrible tragedy because an airline didn't want to get fined.

User currently offlineFly2YYZ From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 1038 posts, RR: 2
Reply 5, posted (8 years 6 months 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 5694 times:

I would think AC would have made arrangements for those 200 passengers to travel the next day or what not. I know those GRU flights are constantly full -- but there was a good reason most lilkely for the cancellation no?!

User currently offlineCloudyapple From Hong Kong, joined Jul 2005, 2454 posts, RR: 10
Reply 6, posted (8 years 6 months 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 5676 times:

Where's that money going to though? It should be asked to pay hefty compensation to the inconvenienced passengers, and not fining and then pocketing the money by the authority.

Also what has been the nature of the delay? If it's tech then it's AC's fault, if it' weather it's nobody's. I've been on a flight where it was clearly delayed by a go around but it was attributed to ATC. How do you make sure any delay racked up is attributed to the correct source honestly?



A310/A319/20/21/A332/3/A343/6/A388/B732/5/7/8/B742/S/4/B752/B763/B772/3/W/E145/J41/MD11/83/90
User currently offline777ER From New Zealand, joined Dec 2003, 12082 posts, RR: 18
Reply 7, posted (8 years 6 months 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 5660 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

Quoting OHLHD (Reply 2):
Quoting 777ER (Reply 1):
If the delay or a flight being cancelled is not the airlines fault

Who´s fault is it then?

Ever considered the departing airport or arrival airport, storms, medical diversions etc? I could go on about who else could cause delays


User currently offlineOHLHD From Finland, joined Dec 2004, 3962 posts, RR: 25
Reply 8, posted (8 years 6 months 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 5631 times:

Quoting 777ER (Reply 7):
Ever considered the departing airport or arrival airport, storms, medical diversions etc? I could go on about who else could cause delays

Sure you are right, but think about it relating to the article.

The airline is always responsible, in the passengers eyes, regardless what is happening. Maybe I should have wrote earlier.  Smile

But regardless of all those reason why a flight is canx or delayed, the airlines should seek protection against such " institutions" as

Quoting MaiYYZ (Thread starter):
PROCON, who oversees the consumers rights in Brazil

because as you said, the reason is not always with the airline. The airlines in general should claim the money, if it wasn´t their fault from e.g. from the airport or who ever is responsible for the delay/canx.
However I rather think that my idea is wishful thinking.


User currently offlineCslusarc From Canada, joined May 2005, 838 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (8 years 6 months 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 5577 times:

I don't understand Portugese. Please could someone translate the article into English.


--cslusarc from YWG
User currently offlineLongHauler From Canada, joined Mar 2004, 4913 posts, RR: 43
Reply 10, posted (8 years 6 months 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 5381 times:

I just looked at the records, and a very bad ice and snow storm rolled through Toronto in that period. December 11/12/13. I would imagine the flight was cancelled as the southbound aircraft was not able to depart Toronto.

One of the reasons Air Canada, and its predecessor Canadian Airlines were continually named among the safest on the earth, is that even when working in very harsh weather conditions, safety always comes before schedule.

Or ... do they think major airlines cancel flights just for the sport of it?



Never gonna grow up, never gonna slow down .... Barefoot Blue Jean Night
User currently offlineCayMan From Canada, joined Aug 2003, 905 posts, RR: 9
Reply 11, posted (8 years 6 months 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 5361 times:

I think we can reconcile 2 points of view here: (1) the key importance of safety which mos definitely should trump all other factors, in my view there should be no doubt about this however (2) where delays occur, the airlines should be very sensitive to customer service issues--especially in a very long haul situation like Brazil to Japan via YYZ. Too often the airlines (I am in no way singling out AC but speaking generally) shift the inconvenience occasioned by these delays to customer.

I realize there is a balance and they cannot accomodate every request but at the same time surely some of the rigid rules that often translate into "sorry you cannot do that" could be more flexible.

My bottom line is this: as a traveler if a respected airline has a delay for mechanical or other safety reasons I have no problem with that provided that they do their utmost to keep me informed and to provide me reaosnable options by way of alternatives.


User currently offlineFly2YYZ From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 1038 posts, RR: 2
Reply 12, posted (8 years 6 months 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 5303 times:

At my previous airline we were given the heads up if there were problems with weather and such, so we were given ample warning to tell pax who were travelling that it was cancelled. Its common sense to tell passengers. I'm sure AC would have told these passengers or give them advanced warning.

Quoting LongHauler (Reply 10):

Or ... do they think major airlines cancel flights just for the sport of it?

And of course they do it just for the sport, I mean just because they are airlines does not mean they really wnat to carry passengers. And from an F/A standpoint, forget layovers in some exotic destination! *sarcasm*


User currently offlineYu138086 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (8 years 6 months 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 5254 times:

It's about time a foreign authority did something about this!!

This is not the first time that AC strands/ delays its passengers abroad. From my experience and from learning about others' similar experiences, AC has commonly stranded/delayed PAX in Argentina, Chile, Brazil, and India always citing mechanical delays. To mention this once is fine but when it becomes an obvious trend it makes one think about other possible motives. This time it bit them in the butt!

Congrats Brazil! *hands clapping*


User currently offlineFLYACYYZ From Canada, joined Jan 2004, 1914 posts, RR: 12
Reply 14, posted (8 years 6 months 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 5098 times:

Quoting Yu138086 (Reply 13):
This is not the first time that AC strands/ delays its passengers abroad. From my experience and from learning about others' similar experiences, AC has commonly stranded/delayed PAX in Argentina, Chile, Brazil, and India always citing mechanical delays.

Your contribution is misleading and an idiotic generalization. "Commonly"??
To what advantage would it serve for any airline to "strand/delay" customers abroad if not for mechanical reasons? Are you remotely aware of the expense involved in delays resulting in involuntary reroutings, hotel and lodging expenses, etc. These situations happen to the very best of the best, and it all comes down to how professionally it is handled. Is it always perfect?? Of course not. Granted there are other considerations such as weather, crew legality issues, etc. but sorry I feel confident working for a company who isn't willing to cut corners or comprimise maintenance.

Knowing how busy Latin American and Asia flights are in terms of load factors, do you think there just happened to be 200 vacant seats on alternate carriers between GRU & NRT?? It was an isolated an unfortunate situation.

[Edited 2006-01-28 23:29:44]

Also for the record, AC has a Customer Solutions department which provides a letter to each customer at the time of re-boarding provisioning a choice of frequent flier mileage or a $$$ voucher for irregular/mechanical situations resulting in delays of as little as 3/4 hours. I know of few others which provide this.

[Edited 2006-01-28 23:37:49]


Above and Beyond
User currently offline9252fly From Canada, joined Sep 2005, 1390 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (8 years 6 months 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 3997 times:

Quoting Yu138086 (Reply 13):
Congrats Brazil! *hands clapping*

I'm having a hard time biting my tongue! With your logic,how about complimenting airlines for crashing their aircraft and killing those onboard because it was better to depart than delay or cancel a flight because it was unsafe. Great,your airline has 100% on-time performance,yet they consider your life expendable.


User currently offlineCampbelldok From Brazil, joined Dec 2005, 34 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (8 years 6 months 23 hours ago) and read 3690 times:

Quoting Cslusarc (Reply 9):
I don't understand Portuguese. Please could someone translate the article into English.

Here you go:
27/01/2006 - 09h09
Procon fines 7 airlines for delayed flights.
Reporter: Lucas Neves
Source: Folha de São Paulo

  • Moçambique student Azevedo Júnior, 23, was concerned about the departure time of his SAA flight to Johannesburg, which was re-scheduled from 18:30 yesterday to 5:00 today. This 11h delay would make him loose his connection for home (Maputo).
  • To evaluate what is the incidence of late arrivals and departures among the 30 airlines which operate in GRU, the Procon (local consumer rights instance) spent 3 hours in the airport, yesterday morning. In this period, they detected 31 delays in arrivals and departures (both domestic and international). There were 14 international departures within these 3 hours. The number of domestic flights was not informed. One of the delayed flights should have departed for Toronto 12 hours earlier.
  • In the end, Procon issued 10 airlines. Seven were fined (fines can reach BRL 3.2 million) for departures delayed longer than 2 hours.
  • Fined airlines were: Air Canada, Varig, Lufthansa, BRA, TAM, Gol, and Aerolineas Argentinas. Values range from BRL 212 to BRL 3.192.300.
  • TAM, Lufthansa, Varig, and Aerolineas Argentines were also notified, along with Iberia, Passaredo, and LanChile, for delays between 30 minutes and two hours.
  • The Procon manager in Guarulhos (GRU), Leonardo Freire, said yesterdays` raid was motivated by complaints received in the end of 2005, regarding BRA and Air Canada flights. The BRA flight he informed, had left the northeastern town of Petrolina with 24 h + delay. The company claimed it was a charter flight (what gives it 18h tolerance according to Brazilian law).
  • The Canadian airline was notified on December 13th to explain a delay in a flight to Tokyo. According to the Procon, some of the passengers were soccer fans, heading for Yokohama for the world soccer club championship finals (São Paulo X Liverpool).
  • During such raids, each airline can be fined and notified only once, even if there were other irregular departures on the same day.
  • Yesterday, the late departure ranking champion was Varig (10). Right after was TAM (9). Others were: Lufthansa (4), Gol (2), AR, Air Canada, LanChile, BRA, Passaredo, and Iberia (1)
  • According to Procon, the notified airlines have two days to explain the delays. If the explanation is considered not convincing, they may be issued a fine. The fined airlines have 15 days to present a formal explanation, or pay the fine. The value of the fine varies according to the airline´s profit and number of delays.
  • Not only Procon watches airline puctuality. The DAC (Civilian Aviation Department) also issues fines upon verification of passengers´ complaints.
  • When it receives a complaint, the DAC opens an administrative process, listens to both parties, and judges it. Fines range from BRL 1.500 to BRL 6000 for each complaint.
  • Yesterday, South African pilot Craig Chaepell, 31, didn´t seem inclined to complain about his flight back to South Africa, delayed 11h. "I wasn´t told the reasons for the delay, but they will take me to a hotel and pay for meals". His wife, Margaux, was in a good mood as well "I heard the hotel is much better than the one we were in"

Another newsline from the same source says Varig and Lufthansa claim delays were due to snow in Frankfurt. Air Canada said it hadn´t been formally notified and would wait an official notification before saying anything about the delays.

Hope it helps. My personal oppinion: Soccer fans (São Paulo - SPFC fans) might have gone mad if they lost the World Championship finals (You might know a trip from GRU to NRT does not easily fit in everyone´s budget). They may have lost connections in Canada, and complained for every possible instance when back to Brazil.


User currently offlineFLYACYYZ From Canada, joined Jan 2004, 1914 posts, RR: 12
Reply 17, posted (8 years 6 months 19 hours ago) and read 3563 times:

Quoting Campbelldok (Reply 16):
The Canadian airline was notified on December 13th to explain a delay in a flight to Tokyo. According to the Procon, some of the passengers were soccer fans, heading for Yokohama for the world soccer club championship finals (São Paulo X Liverpool).

Picture it...200 soccer fans missing a world championship game in Japan! Perhaps the Brazilian authorities should be as focused on fining/charging the animalistic behaviour of some of the fans who apparently attacked the AC staff.

Wonder if fines are reciprocally retroactive. I can remember years ago at least 3 occasions when a VASP MD-11 was marooned at the AC hanger for days because of mechanical situations.



Above and Beyond
User currently offlineHALFA From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 1353 posts, RR: 15
Reply 18, posted (8 years 6 months 15 hours ago) and read 3502 times:

Quoting Sebring (Reply 4):
fining airlines for such delays will put pressure on crews to cut safety margins. Ultimately, there will be a terrible tragedy because an airline didn't want to get fined.

What a stupid comment. Do you honestly think flight crews of any airline will put their own lives in danger to avoid a fine? Think about it! Flight crew members want to live as long as the rest of you.

HALFA



Don't mess with Texas....We just may do that!
User currently offlineFMAL From Brazil, joined Jan 2004, 486 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (8 years 6 months 10 hours ago) and read 3456 times:

Quoting FLYACYYZ (Reply 17):
Picture it...200 soccer fans missing a world championship game in Japan! Perhaps the Brazilian authorities should be as focused on fining/charging the animalistic behaviour of some of the fans who apparently attacked the AC staff.

Do you have a source on this "attack"?


User currently offlineBrasuca From Brazil, joined Mar 2004, 717 posts, RR: 11
Reply 20, posted (8 years 6 months 10 hours ago) and read 3437 times:

Hey...
Calm down you all
AC will only be fined if they can't prove the delays were not their fault.
It requires a relatively long process at Brazilian justice.
AC is not defenseless.
These guys love to have a subject to fight at.

Bah...

[Edited 2006-01-30 14:28:23]


Varig, Varig, Varig
User currently offlineErikwilliam From Brazil, joined Mar 2004, 2152 posts, RR: 12
Reply 21, posted (8 years 6 months 10 hours ago) and read 3431 times:

Quoting Yu138086 (Reply 13):
This is not the first time that AC strands/ delays its passengers abroad.

not only them got fined, JJ and RG got it too.



Dida, Cafu, Lucio, Roque Junior, Roberto Carlo, Emerson, Ze Roberto, Ronaldinho, Kaka, Adriano, Robinho, Ronaldo
User currently offlineFMAL From Brazil, joined Jan 2004, 486 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (8 years 6 months 9 hours ago) and read 3386 times:

Quoting Brasuca (Reply 20):
It requires a relatively long process at Brazilian justice.

I'd say a VERY long time!

Come to think of it, what are the odds any of these airlines will actually be fined?


User currently offlineHardiwv From Brazil, joined Oct 2004, 8780 posts, RR: 50
Reply 23, posted (8 years 6 months 8 hours ago) and read 3355 times:

Quoting FMAL (Reply 22):
Come to think of it, what are the odds any of these airlines will actually be fined?

Zero chance!

Rgs,


User currently offlineFLYACYYZ From Canada, joined Jan 2004, 1914 posts, RR: 12
Reply 24, posted (8 years 6 months 8 hours ago) and read 3304 times:

Quoting FMAL (Reply 19):
Do you have a source on this "attack"?

Trust me on this one. Not at liberty to expand upon the details, but I'll say it again....

Picture it:
200 Brazilian revved up soccer fans, delayed, and going to miss a World Cup Championship game. Needless to say, a very unanticipated, and unfortunate situation.

It wasn't pretty.



Above and Beyond
User currently offlineFMAL From Brazil, joined Jan 2004, 486 posts, RR: 1
Reply 25, posted (8 years 6 months 2 hours ago) and read 3186 times:

I'll take your word on it FLYACYYZ! hehehe

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 23):
Zero chance!

Rgs,

My thoughts exactly......


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