Sponsor Message:
Civil Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
DHL, JAL Near Miss (or Near Hit) @ LHR  
User currently offlineA319114 From Netherlands, joined Aug 2004, 541 posts, RR: 3
Posted (8 years 7 months 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 39307 times:

Did a quick search, but nothing came up.

I just stumbled across this photo on a flight sim forum. When did this incident occur, and how close where the two planes?

http://www.ccygnus.nl/images/nearmiss.jpg


Destruction leads to a very rough road but it also breeds creation
69 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineKiwiandrew From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 8551 posts, RR: 13
Reply 1, posted (8 years 7 months 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 39276 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Great photo , but it might not have even qualified as an incident .... it is very difficult in shots like these to tell what FL each plane is at .. they could have had 1000' vertical separation for all we know , the foreshortening affect has a way of making shots like this look more dramatic than they actually are ( I hope)


Moderation in all things ... including moderation ;-)
User currently offline1MillionFlyer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (8 years 7 months 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 39258 times:

Camara angles can be deceiving, these planes could have been 300M (1000Ft) apart vertically at least in this picture.

[Edited 2006-01-29 20:08:16]

User currently offlineA319114 From Netherlands, joined Aug 2004, 541 posts, RR: 3
Reply 3, posted (8 years 7 months 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 39258 times:

I figured the same, but based on the dimensions of both the A300 and the 77W, it looks like they might be very close to each other.


Destruction leads to a very rough road but it also breeds creation
User currently offlineD L X From United States of America, joined May 1999, 11269 posts, RR: 52
Reply 4, posted (8 years 7 months 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 39081 times:

It is interesting though that SkyNews was reporting it as a close call. Sensationalisation or truth?


Send me a PM at http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/sendmessage.main?from_username=NULL
User currently offlineConcordeBoy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (8 years 7 months 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 39071 times:

Quoting WhiteHatter (Reply 5):
I'm curious why you think that way....? Any particular reason?

In just 2005 alone, JL's employed a safety regime that even China Airlines could criticize:
  • multiple counts of unauthorized takeoffs at CTS, ICN, and HND
  • aircraft equipment falling apart midflight only days/weeks apart
  • utilizing other aircraft parts on a 747
  • tires disengaging (not blowing out) upon touchdown
  • media reports of scheduled maintenance being found undone-but-checked-off
  • top officials turning in their resignation over admitted safety violations
  • ...and the grandmomma of them all--- a press release stating that safety wasn't their top priority, and that they're sorry for that and will try to do better!!!!

  • User currently offlinePoitin From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
    Reply 6, posted (8 years 7 months 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 39071 times:

    Quoting A319114 (Reply 3):
    I figured the same, but based on the dimensions of both the A300 and the 77W, it looks like they might be very close to each other.

    The A300 is way lower than it looks. I took the image into Photoshop and measured the fusilage lenghts. The JAL plane is 6.4 inchs. The DHL plane is 4.9 inches long.

    If you assume the JAL is a 773 then it is 243 feet, if a 772, then 209 feet.

    If the assume that DHL is a A300 600F, then it is 133 feet long

    That means the ratios of the two aircraft lenghts is either

    133/243 or .54 or

    133/209 or .63

    Since 777 is 6.4 inches, the A300 would have to be either

    6.4 * .54 or 3.4 inches or
    6.4 * .63 or 4.0 inches.

    Since it is 4.9 inches, it must either be a larger airplane than a A300-600F or it is lower.

    Disclaimer! I am no expert on aircraft types, so if I have the wrong models please correct me gently  Big grin


    User currently offlineNijltje From Belgium, joined Aug 2005, 241 posts, RR: 0
    Reply 7, posted (8 years 7 months 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 39071 times:

    that's the fun when you are landing at LHR, you can almost see somtetimes the peole in the other plane.  Smile

    User currently offlineGAWZU From United Kingdom, joined May 2002, 235 posts, RR: 1
    Reply 8, posted (8 years 7 months 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 38964 times:

    Quoting Poitin (Reply 6):
    I took the image into Photoshop and measured the fusilage lenghts

    I like it!

    Quoting Poitin (Reply 6):
    If you assume the JAL is a 773 then it is 243 feet, if a 772, then 209 feet.

    It's a 773...


    User currently offlineHorus From Egypt, joined Feb 2004, 5230 posts, RR: 59
    Reply 9, posted (8 years 7 months 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 38899 times:

    Quoting GAWZU (Reply 8):
    Quoting Poitin (Reply 6):
    If you assume the JAL is a 773 then it is 243 feet, if a 772, then 209 feet.

    It's a 773...

    I'd say its a B773ER. Look at he raked wingtips.


    View Large View Medium
    Click here for bigger photo!

    Photo © Ian Kirby



    Horus



    EGYPT: A 7,000 Year Old Civilisation
    User currently offlineConcordeBoy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
    Reply 10, posted (8 years 7 months 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 38899 times:

    Quoting GAWZU (Reply 8):
    It's a 773...

    ...correct, seeing as the aircraft has raked winglets, and JL doesn't operate the 764ER nor anyone the 772LR.


    User currently offlineB742 From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2005, 3767 posts, RR: 19
    Reply 11, posted (8 years 7 months 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 38879 times:

    Quoting GAWZU (Reply 8):
    It's a 773...

    It's a 77W (777-300ER), JAL operates it on one of their 2 daily flights from NRT to LHR and back to NRT  Smile

    Rob!  wave 


    User currently offlineJbmitt From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 547 posts, RR: 2
    Reply 12, posted (8 years 7 months 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 38850 times:

    Does DHL even operate into LHR? I would think the cargo companies aside from the subsidaries of passenger carries would go to other London airports. Why would the DHL flight be that close to LHR landing or arrival paths anyways?

    I have my doubts of the story.

    jbmitt


    User currently offlineBA0284 From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2005, 299 posts, RR: 1
    Reply 13, posted (8 years 7 months 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 38816 times:

    Quoting Jbmitt (Reply 12):
    Does DHL even operate into LHR?

    Yeah they do, they have about 3 flights a day on a Saturday I think. I think that it isnt quite DHL, but it runs under European Air Transport. Planes are in DHL colours

    BA0284  Smile


    User currently offlineSQNo1 From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2004, 687 posts, RR: 1
    Reply 14, posted (8 years 7 months 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 38774 times:

    Quoting GAWZU (Reply 8):
    I like it!

    However, I certinaly no longer like the git who sold this picture to the News Of The World, caused uneccecary concern about air safety and worst of all, he/she has probably got a lot of money for this pic!

    With Regards,
    Alex.B


    User currently offlineRatypus From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2004, 176 posts, RR: 0
    Reply 15, posted (8 years 7 months 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 38760 times:

    Are we sure the DHL plane is an A300 - looks like it could be a 737 but I don't know what DHL have in their fleet so this is just a suggestion!

    To me looks like the two planes are a fair distance apart vertically! The 777 would dwarf the other plane totally if it were a near miss...


    User currently offlineBA0284 From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2005, 299 posts, RR: 1
    Reply 16, posted (8 years 7 months 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 38738 times:

    Theres just a short article on the BBC website about it. Basically confirming what we've all been saying!!

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4660644.stm

    Quoting Ratypus (Reply 15):
    Are we sure the DHL plane is an A300 - looks like it could be a 737

    Yeah definately an A300, DHL dont have any 737's and the A300 flies to LHR

    BA0284

    [Edited 2006-01-29 21:58:03]

    User currently offlineSean377 From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2001, 1225 posts, RR: 40
    Reply 17, posted (8 years 7 months 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 38709 times:

    Only the News of the World would think there was a story in this. Why anyone buys that paper (among others) is beyond me.

    While we're on the subject, would the picture have made it on A.Net had it been submitted?



    Flying is the second greatest thrill known to man... Landing is the first!
    User currently offlineGoAround From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2003, 616 posts, RR: 0
    Reply 18, posted (8 years 7 months 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 38675 times:

    Quoting Sean377 (Reply 17):
    Only the News of the World would think there was a story in this. Why anyone buys that paper (among others) is beyond me.

    *cough* http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4660644.stm *cough*

    Interesting story. Though probably not much in it. Good pic though!



    GoAround
    User currently offlineMKEdude From South Korea, joined May 2005, 1011 posts, RR: 1
    Reply 19, posted (8 years 7 months 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 38659 times:

    As Concordeboy brought up 2005 was not a good year safety-wise for JAL. It is my understanding that their image in Japan was severely tarnished, and due to fewer bookings JAL had to trim back some international flights.

    Even though this was not an incident, and according to reports the planes were always a safe distance from each other...a picture is worth a thousand words, and this will cause further problems for JAL.



    "You can't be a real country unless you have a beer and an airline." Frank Zappa
    User currently offlineConcordeBoy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
    Reply 20, posted (8 years 7 months 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 38630 times:

    Quoting MKEdude (Reply 19):
    As Concordeboy brought up 2005 was not a good year safety-wise for JAL

    well, it wasn't a cautious one... but I'd say it was a damn "good" year for them, since they very well could've killed a few hundred people in any one of those incidents. Fortune was strongly on their side.


    User currently offlineSQNo1 From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2004, 687 posts, RR: 1
    Reply 21, posted (8 years 7 months 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 38555 times:

    To clarify, it was infact the Sunday Mirror that the photograph was sold to, apologies.

    With Regards,
    Alex.B


    User currently offlineGritzngravee From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 128 posts, RR: 0
    Reply 22, posted (8 years 7 months 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 37951 times:

    Photographs are two dimensional, if this photo was taken and sold to a media outlet there is no one to blame but the media outlet. Bu tlike many of you have stated the media loves to make something out of nothing.

    Pilot error does occur and in a city like London (LHR, GTW, STD, LNC, LUT) I'm sure there are close calls everyday just like in the NYC area(JFK, LGA, EWR, ISP and Westchester).

    I noticed when looking at most apporach photos at SFO every shot looks like a close call but that's because there is no depth perception. Just like the London photo, you cannot tell how far or close you are to something when the background is the atmosphere, there are no shadows to measure or any clouds showing a refelction therefore zooming in makes it look like an extremely close call.

    Just do a photo search of SFO and you will see almost all of the parallel approaches look like possible collisions.


    User currently offlineGritzngravee From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 128 posts, RR: 0
    Reply 23, posted (8 years 7 months 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 37817 times:

    I also forgot to mention the major issue concerning near misses of planes departing and approaching TEB and EWR. I live in North Jersey and all traffic departing LGA heading West, South or Northwest intersects JFK approaches from the west. At the same time if EWR are landing the 22's that means TEB traffic is also landing heading South. My window in my room looks directly South so I see TEB and EWR traffic converging and it always looks like close calls. But the human eye cannot zoom in and out like birds therefore we see things equally so to speak. But there have been numerous stories published in area papers about TEB traffic completely ignoring EWR approaching traffic, even ignoring commands to climb at a certain rate per minute(fines have been handed down to many private planes at TEB). Also many ATC's have complained about lack of man power at peak departure and arrivals at the NYC airports and it will probably take a collision to right the problem I hope that doersn't happen. There was a close call of about 300 feet or less when a plane was cleared to land the crosswind runway at EWR and a plane departing TEB was completely left in the blind (ATC too busy to see the potential danger, guiding other planes). Not to say this is what happened in London but you never know.

    User currently offlineCentrair From Japan, joined Jan 2005, 3598 posts, RR: 20
    Reply 24, posted (8 years 7 months 2 days ago) and read 37481 times:

    You know...if JL was involved, I would not be surprised if it were actually true.

    They just got a 2nd strike against them from the Ministry of Transportation for an incident on a 747 on NRT-TPE where a FA did not arm a door because "she didn't know how it worked". They have had multiple safety issues in the past couple months that are just based on stupidity and undereducated staff.

    If this actually happened, the Japanese government will count it as strike 3 and they will be forced to suspend operations till they sort out their safety issues.



    Yes...I am not a KIX fan. Let's Japanese Aviation!
    25 Post contains images Drakey : This is total media sensationalism. The two aircraft were both in the Lambourne hold for Heathrow and were vertically separated by 1000 feet. No pilot
    26 Pogo : As BA0284 said yes they do, they also fly B757's in to LHR. They have a designated cargo shed and as well as dealing with the loads of there own airc
    27 Echster : Just my 2 cents, but I find it unlikely aircraft equipped with TCAS would both order a left hand turn.
    28 Jetlagged : TCAS only provides vertical resolutions, so can't order a turn in either direction. Certainly each aircraft would be on the other's TCAS display as p
    29 727forever : The EAT airbus in this photo is in fact an A300-b4-200. 727forever
    30 AirTranTUS : If the DHL plane is an A300B4, its length is 175ft. An A300-600 would be even longer. Some quick math yields: 175/243 or .72 6.4 * .72 = 4.6 inches 4
    31 AirCanada014 : It is A300-600F but the length is 177ft not 133ft
    32 727forever : Of all possible DHL vendors, the following is true of their A300 fleets: 1. EAT has only A300b4-203Fs 2. Swift Air has only A300b4-200Fs 3. Astar has
    33 LTU932 : If the plane was really that close to the JL 77W, you can rest assured that TCAS would have alerted them in advance. However, if the TCAS wouldn't wor
    34 Leigh pilgrim : I wondered how long it would be before this was on the net. Just read it in the daily mail, apparently a football fan took the picture near West Ham,
    35 Henny : This is nonsense, shame on Sky - those two planes are simply in left end of the LAM hold at LHR, 1000ft apart - it's only because it's a clear day and
    36 UAL777UK : Well said!
    37 Candid76 : According to the BBC article the JAL aircraft was an A330. That's a massive breakthrough for Airbus!
    38 Post contains links and images Carledwards : The JAL 777-300 in question is JA733J, pictured below: View Large View MediumPhoto © Tamon Takeoka I dont know what the DHL A300 is as of yet.
    39 Post contains images EddieGunsmoke : From Swedish newspaper Aftonbladet: "The DHL plane was an A300 which is a small freighter aircraft, and the passanger plane was a JAL A330, a much big
    40 Post contains images GBOAB : This is the DHL aircraft which I photographed on Saturday the registration is OO-DLU Airbus A300B4 and no it wasn't me that submitted the photo Cheers
    41 Bennett123 : This picture was on P1 of the Daily Mail today. However if you read P3, they suggest that the aircraft are not as close as they look. For my money the
    42 KJFK31L : "While the lower plane was a A300, a smaller freight plane, the one behind was a JAL A330 - a larger, passenger plane." Not a A330 and obviously not "
    43 Vr-hkg : Ah, Photoshop - you have to love it for its stupidity. Digital photographs don't have dimensions in "inches" unless you assume (as Photoshop does) th
    44 Post contains links and images Leigh pilgrim : Thats where I saw the report, the smaller pic looks worse, the bigger pic actually if looked at closely, does give the impression of 'Not close at al
    45 HAWK21M : The Pic in post #1 can give a wrong Impression to the Public. Photoshopped I would think. What happened to TCAS.Did it warn them. regds MEL
    46 KJFK31L : Photoshop may assume an arbitray size for pixels in a given image, but this size is rendered constant in a given image. Thus measuring the size of on
    47 Post contains images Lurch : If those two machines had been that close together on the same flight level their TCAS system would have been going APE as it is fitted to both of tho
    48 Luisca : No wonder Airbus sold more than Boeing in 2005. As if subsidies were not enough, now they are stealing planes from Boeing.
    49 Corey07850 : If EWR is using the 22's, TEB will be using the VOR/DME A to runway 19 or 24 (19 if ILS is needed)... Therefore as aircraft passover the TEB VOR for
    50 Treeny : According to Sky this has officially been declared a near miss which suggests that the photo hasnt been 'tamperd' with at all. Note that for a near mi
    51 Tom12 : " target=_blank>http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4660644.stm Just me or does the BBC article claim that it is a JAL A330? Tom
    52 Post contains links and images B777A340Fan : I'm 99.999999% sure that it was the camera angle that gives the visual effect that the planes are close to one another. It's hard to tell exactly wher
    53 727forever : The photo of the LH744 and the UA772 is of the ILS PRM 28L/28R at SFO. While they are not touching, yes they are extremely close. The close proximity
    54 727forever : oops, before I get flamed now, I realize that the UA bird is a 752. 727forever
    55 Post contains links Gritzngravee : Never heard any of this... TEB traffic has no reason to pay attention to EWR approaching traffic. Why would TEB traffic need to climb to avoid traffi
    56 Post contains links and images Poitin : OPPS! You are right! I took the CABIN lenght! http://www.airbus.com/en/aircraftfam...a310/a300-600f/specifications.html Your number is what I get now
    57 Post contains links Gritzngravee : Corey07850 I'm sure you've heard about this as well: http://www.northjersey.com/page.php?...kyJmZnYmVsN2Y3dnFlZUVFeXk2NzU0MTUw
    58 Poitin : I assume you know little about Photoshop, for it is clearly the finest digital photographic tool. What I did was to put the monitor in 100% size (or
    59 Post contains images ChrisNH : Dude...you KNOW you've 'made it' when this story gets top-billing on The Drudge Report . Chris in NH
    60 Vincewy : LOL, looks like those 2 planes are glued together, when did Boeing come up with such high capacity aircraft to combat A380?
    61 Post contains images Poitin : I friend of mine claims that it is all simple math (right -- sure) but you can calculate the height of both aircraft if you know their actual lenght,
    62 Timz : The A300 fuselage isn't perpendicular to our line of sight, so the 4.9 inches in reply 6 should be adjusted to 5.2 inches or maybe a bit more. The 773
    63 Poitin : Ah, let me explain -- the aircraft were measured from nose to tail. That clearly makes them "perpendicular to our line". In the case of the 773, I ex
    64 Timz : If you photograph two A300s that are the same distance from the camera, one pointed perpendicular to your line of sight and the other pointed directl
    65 Poitin : However, the two aircraft are more or less side-on to the photographer. The A330 could be fore shortened slightly, but not that much. It that were th
    66 G-CIVP : Indeed correct. This has been confirmed via one of the LHR mailing lists via a former Air Traffic Controller.
    67 Timz : I made a couple errors, so let me back up and start over. Contrary to what I said, the height estimation in Reply 61 above is legit, if we accept the
    68 Post contains images Noelg : Presumably you mean LHR, LGW, STN, LCY and LTN?
    69 KJFK31L : Technically, that is correct- I agree. Newark is nevertheless positioned in such a way that close calls do occur on turns from a runway 22L departure
    Top Of Page
    Forum Index

    This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

    Printer friendly format

    Similar topics:More similar topics...
    I Experienced A Near Miss With Snba To LHR posted Tue Aug 20 2002 13:26:58 by Dragonrapide
    JAL Near Miss Over Japan posted Wed Jan 31 2001 17:00:22 by Singapore_Air
    Seattle Near Miss (Near Hit) posted Tue Jan 23 2001 21:49:50 by Philly phlyer
    Near Miss Near MAN A Week Ago posted Tue Jun 25 2002 16:35:27 by David_itl
    Lightening Strike Or Bird Hit posted Mon Jan 24 2005 07:56:49 by HAWK21M
    JAL For Skyteam Or Oneworld? posted Thu Dec 23 2004 00:36:12 by Gkpetery
    LAX-YYC-LHR Or LAX-YUL-LHR? YYC Or YUL For Spottin posted Tue Sep 30 2003 12:01:18 by Pe@rson
    Which To Choose NZ744 Or UA777 LAX-LHR posted Sat Jan 11 2003 19:00:29 by Jox
    SQ Or CX From LHR – Syd? posted Wed Jan 9 2002 18:05:30 by Cabinboy
    Concorde: LAX-LHR Or LAX-JFK-LHR posted Fri Nov 9 2001 01:03:34 by PanAm747
    LAX-YYC-LHR Or LAX-YUL-LHR? YYC Or YUL For Spottin posted Tue Sep 30 2003 12:01:18 by Pe@rson
    Which To Choose NZ744 Or UA777 LAX-LHR posted Sat Jan 11 2003 19:00:29 by Jox
    SQ Or CX From LHR – Syd? posted Wed Jan 9 2002 18:05:30 by Cabinboy