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Il-62 Upgrades  
User currently offlineN-156F From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (14 years 1 month 2 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 1181 times:

The Il;-62 is, depending on who you are, either the most graceful machine ever to take to the air, a VC-10 copy, or just a flying murder weapon. My question is- why do airlines (namely LOT Polish, Aeroflot, others) which have Il-62s not upgrade them? Obviously Aeroflot is replacing them, butthere are still several which will be around for a while. ARIA has access to JT8D-200 series engine- why not replace the D-30s with them? Ditto that for LOT Polish. In Aeroflot's case, they could even place a pair of RB.211-535 engines on the fuslage.
Cubana certainly needs to embark on an upgrade like this, however JT8D-200 is about all they could afford. And the U.S. won't supply it. Perhaps they could get a deal on Perm PS-90s from Russia?
The Il-62 is a great plane, obviously in its twilight, but why not upgrade it so Aeroflot and other airlines which have them can meet Stage III with them?

17 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineMEA-707 From Netherlands, joined Nov 1999, 4316 posts, RR: 36
Reply 1, posted (14 years 1 month 2 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 1110 times:

I admit the Il-62 is graceful and a true classic. But the plane is extremely heavy, and probably the most expensive aircraft per seat mile which is around now. Only airlines without the cash to buy anything else still fly the Il-62. They try to fly it as little as possible, only when their more efficient equipment is busy. So even with the newest engines on it, the '62 will be an inefficient and backward aircraft. The airlines involved will rather buy or lease a single new aircraft if they can finance anything, above refurbishing 10 Il-62s, which will still remain old and uneconomical aircraft , less popular with the public than western equipment.


nobody has ever died from hard work, but why take the risk?
User currently offlineAerLingus From China, joined Mar 2000, 2371 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (14 years 1 month 2 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 1098 times:

Does LOT still fly them?


Get your patchouli stink outta my store!
User currently offlineAKelley728 From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 2191 posts, RR: 5
Reply 3, posted (14 years 1 month 2 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 1097 times:

First of, LOT does NOT have any IL-62s in service. In fact, they were the first Eastern European airline to go 'all western'. If you doubt me, check out the following link:
http://www.lot.com/about/fleet/

Second, you could'nt possible re-engine an IL-62 with a JT8D-200, there's like a 5,000-10,1000 lb thrust difference between the JT8D and the D-30. Maybe CFM56, but not JT8D. But you'll never be able to get two CFM56 engines in tandem on the back of any aircraft, they're simply too big.

I agree with MEA-707, it's cheaper to lease a newer type then to overhaul an oldie like the IL-62. Heck, you could probably pick up an older 767-200 for less then the price of overhauling an IL-62!


User currently offlineRayChuang From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 8003 posts, RR: 5
Reply 4, posted (14 years 1 month 2 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 1093 times:

In fact, the Il-62 is being quickly phased out of service everywhere in the world. Even Aeroflot has pretty much switched to modern Western airliners for their international routes or prefer to use the Il-86/96 instead.

In fact, right now if you were to fly to Moscow from JFK on Aeroflot you're more likely to fly a 772ER instead. And Air China (the Beijing-based international airline formed from the splitup of CAAC) flies mostly Boeing 744's or A343's for their long-range routes. China Eastern (the Chinese airline based in Shanghai) uses MD-11's and A343's for their long-range international flights, and China Southern (the Chinese airline based in Guangzhou [Canton]) was one of the first users of the 772ER in the world.

Sorry, but finding an Il-62 on international routes is very rare nowadays. Air Koryu (North Korea's national airline) may still use them and Aeroflot may fly them from Moscow to Hanoi, but even that may come to an end soon as Aeroflot gets more modern Western jet airliners.


User currently offlineBrissie_lions From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (14 years 1 month 2 weeks ago) and read 1084 times:

Howdy all

Did CAAC ever operate the Il-62? I don't think they did. Or was this used as an analogy on westernisation of former (and still) communist countries?

Cheers

Scotty


User currently offlineMEA-707 From Netherlands, joined Nov 1999, 4316 posts, RR: 36
Reply 6, posted (14 years 1 month 1 week 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 1082 times:

Hi Scotty!!
CAAC bought some 5 earlier versions of the Il-62 in the early seventies. Remember their relationship with the USSR was quite strained -even while they were both 'communist' - since the early sixties, that's why you saw CAAC often buying British stuff (Trident, Viscount) and mixing the fleet with US and USSR stuff). All 5 were withdrawn by 1988, so they didn't survive to see the reorganisation to Air China etc. Reasons they were withdrawn were probably their inefficiency - even compared to the 707s they still retained by then. In early 1988, CAAC also lost an Il-18 for which they blamed the cause on the airframe, probably that also didn't help relationships and support with/from Ilyushin !
Some Il-62s in China survive in parks and museum, the others were scrapped. The Il-62s were never seen much on China's international routes, the 707 in the 1970s and 747 etc from 1980 onwards were more suitable.



nobody has ever died from hard work, but why take the risk?
User currently offlineKing Diamond From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (14 years 1 month 1 week 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 1079 times:

Hi!
LOT re-sell oldest and most graceful murder weapons IL62 to Ukraine on half price. IL62 now flies to Toronto, Canada.
" ... why do airlines ... which have Il-62s not upgrade them ... " it's very simple question for small ex-soviet airlines - NO MONEY (these concerning as new aircraft's and also new engines). In fact, the Ukraine carriers have ONLY ONE own western aircraft - Boeing 737. Others aircraft's is leasing aircraft's. We don't have any Airbus, Boeing Jumbo, IL86 or native Antonov "Ruslan". After crashed Soviet Union all big aircraft's ( IL62, IL86 and IL96 ) has landing in Russia.

I read that East German Interflug until merged with Lufthansa has some IL62. Where these IL's ? Sold, re-assembled or killed ? I don't know.


... and IL62 too old to upgrade ... now time to die 


Have a nice turbulence !


User currently offlineSlawko From Canada, joined May 1999, 3799 posts, RR: 9
Reply 8, posted (14 years 1 month 1 week 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 1069 times:

I agree with King Diamond, although I love to see the Air Ukraine IL62 come into Toronto every monday and friday, ( It is a welcome change from all of the Airbus that we have here) I can not wait until they get the 767's next year to replace the old IL's....Even though the 62 gets you accross the pond faster then the 767, it's pax comfort and cargo capacity can not compare to the 767's. Every airline in the world apart from those in the still developing countries in Asia are working hard to be rid of the old gas guzzlers.....

Click for large version
Click here for full size photo!

Photo © Brian Hill


To Kingdiamond, We should not be so hard on Air Ukraine, they have overcome a lot of problems inculding the loss of two of their most imoprtant routes (new York and Chicago) because they did not have the equipment to fly the route on their own. They have overcome the eastern European economic crisis and are now finalizing a deal for 2 767's for next year, Also look at Ukraine International who never even had a Russian type and are now one of the best perfomrning airlines in the world with an all 737 fleet, maybe even they will look at getting 767's and start some longer range flights, they are already partners with Swissair Austrian, and Virgin Atlantic.......



"Clive Beddoe says he favours competition, but his actions do not support that idea." Robert Milton - CEO Air Canada
User currently offlineIlyushin96M From United States of America, joined Sep 1999, 2609 posts, RR: 12
Reply 9, posted (14 years 1 month 1 week 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 1058 times:

There was an airline in Russia called Orient-Avia which purchased IL62Ms from Aeroflot and did considerable work on upgrading them. They were fitted with new cabin interiors and special work was done on the engine nacelles to make the aircraft quieter. Orient-Avia no longer flies, so its IL62s have either been disposed of or sold back to Aeroflot or another airline.

There are no Western or Russian engines of sufficient thrust rating and size to replace the Soloviev DK30Us on the IL62M and IL62MK. The tail-mounting of the engines also poses a unique problem in terms of engine weight and size. The aircraft are so old and out-dated, and demand for them is so low, the cost of developing an alternative powerplant and re-engineing the aircraft would not be justified.

Programs have been examined to re-engine TU154s and IL86s with CFM engines. The TU154 re-engineing program would involve an extensive re-build of the tail of the aircraft to accommodate the larger CFM fan, which makes it an economically unviable alternative. There were plans to fly an IL86 to France for re-engineing at one point, but the cost of the project proved to be too high, so the idea was scrapped.


User currently offlineBen From Switzerland, joined Aug 1999, 1391 posts, RR: 50
Reply 10, posted (14 years 1 month 1 week 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 1049 times:

Hey Il96M!

It's interesting you mentioned those Orient Il62s.

As far as I heard, they were put in 'deep' storage at Vladivostok with the full preservative grease coating, engines removed and everything else done to ensure they would last for a long time...

Then a few months ago one was sold to an operator in the far-east. I think it was Sakhalinsk Aviatrassy or Mavial in Magadan - I'm not sure. The others are now with other carriers in the far-east. I can't see them being retired any time soon, those carriers can't afford anything else. Hey, the Il-62 hasn't done bad for itself!

At one point, Orient were planning a service to Hawaii!!! too ambitious if you ask me. I get the feeling they were another one of these 'dirty money' enterprises. Only created to keep a flow of money going around, no matter how much a particular comany appears to be losing. (a similar accusation has been levelled at Aerosweet!)

Slawko! Can you please tell me how much a one-way fare is from Canada to LWO/KPB (whichever is cheaper) on a 6U IL6 ?? I can only see the non-discounted 'Y' class fares from here and they're not cheap.


User currently offlineSlawko From Canada, joined May 1999, 3799 posts, RR: 9
Reply 11, posted (14 years 1 month 1 week 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 1046 times:

I'll find out for you, maybe even tonight if I get a chance...Where did you find the fares?


"Clive Beddoe says he favours competition, but his actions do not support that idea." Robert Milton - CEO Air Canada
User currently offlineUSAir767 From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 190 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (14 years 1 month 1 week 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 1045 times:

First, LOT Polish Airlines got rid of their IL-62's in the late 80's I dont know what your source is but it is wrong. Second, the IL-62 is a pice of crap upgradeing a IL-62 is the same thing a upgradeing a ford pinto why in the hell would you do that please tell me why would you upgrade a flying death trap?

User currently offlineCedarjet From United Kingdom, joined May 1999, 8092 posts, RR: 54
Reply 13, posted (14 years 1 month 1 week 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 1042 times:

I agree that the Il62 wouldn't really benefit from an upgrade but may I answer USAir 767's "Please tell me why would you upgrade a flying death trap?" with another question? Please tell me why would you upgrade a DC10 to an MD10? Surely the safety stats on the two types are comparable - except the Il62 and it's other Russian cousins have earned their hours in far more difficult conditions at less equipped fields?


fly Saha Air 707s daily from Tehran's downtown Mehrabad to Mashhad, Kish Island and Ahwaz
User currently offlineSlawko From Canada, joined May 1999, 3799 posts, RR: 9
Reply 14, posted (14 years 1 month 1 week 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 1038 times:

First of all no one is desputing the fact that LOT got rid of them, my post was pointing out that when lot had then they upgraded their inflight entertainment, and those planes are now flying with Air Ukraine.....furthermore, I think that the planes name and its nation(s) o manufacturing have more to do with it's reputation, and the IL62's record is not much worse then that of older western types like the 707 dc-8 or dc-10......


"Clive Beddoe says he favours competition, but his actions do not support that idea." Robert Milton - CEO Air Canada
User currently offlineCtbarnes From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 3491 posts, RR: 50
Reply 15, posted (14 years 1 month 1 week 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 1031 times:

I do hope some foreward-looking person or museum snaps up an IL-62 for preservation and display before they're all scrapped. It may have been a dreadful aircraft, but it still is an important part of Soviet-era commercial aircraft lore.

Charles



The customer isn't a moron, she is your wife -David Ogilvy
User currently offlineVH-OJO From Slovakia, joined Jan 2000, 238 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (14 years 1 month 1 week 6 days ago) and read 1024 times:

There are numerous IL-62s along motorways in Germany (these are obviously ex-Interflug). They usually serve as restaurants. There is at least one in the Czech Republic, and an ex-CSA IL-62 in Maxton, N.C. with VC-10 titles. There are pictures of it on Airliners.net

User currently offlineIlyushin96M From United States of America, joined Sep 1999, 2609 posts, RR: 12
Reply 17, posted (14 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 1010 times:

I have been thinking of a rather ambitious project to obtain examples of Russian airliners for display in the US. It would require quite an investment, but would cost far less than it would to secure similar Western types. Flying an aircraft to a location and preserving it would allow enthusiasts everywhere to enjoy looking at and experiencing it!

Here's my list for future A/C acquisitions:

IL14
IL18
IL62
IL86
TU104
TU114
TU134
TU144
TU154

Any aircraft not in flyable condition could be disassembled and shipped.   Ambitious, yes...expensive, yes...necessary??? TOTALLY!


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