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AA Wary Of MD-80 Replacement, Lack Of Alternatives  
User currently offlineMidnightMike From United States of America, joined Mar 2003, 2892 posts, RR: 14
Posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 15128 times:

Looks like the topic in the next 10 years will be when is American going to replace the MD80's, guess American is going to wait for the future 737NNG program.

http://www.flightinternational.com/A...ent+due+to+lack+of+narrowbody.html

AA wary of MD-80 replacement due to lack of narrowbody alternatives
Ageing MD-80s could fly on if US carrier opts to focus on shaping fleet to cope with growing international traffic

International growth and uncertainty over Airbus and Boeing plans for a next-generation narrowbody aircraft could drive American Airlines to update its long-haul fleet before it sets about replacing its 300-plus Boeing MD-80s.

Then we have the challenge of replacing the MD-80s. They are probably an average of 14 years and we have so many that even if we replace 30 a year – which is quite aggressive – then it would take 10 years. But our major focus is making the fleet profitable.”

American will decide whether to equip its Boeing 737s with winglets within six months, and has windtunnel data from Aviation Partners Boeing showing a predicted 2.5-3.0% fuel-burn improvement on the MD-80. That is not as significant as on the 737 and Reding indicates that the business case for the MD-80 is weaker.


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107 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineETStar From Canada, joined Jan 2004, 2103 posts, RR: 7
Reply 1, posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 15095 times:

Why the winglets on the 73s? Do they currently fly distances that cannot be matched with those of the 80s?

Maybe it is time AA looked at Airbii aircraft ... since it could definitely benefit from a lower price fueled by the battle of the giants.

[Edited 2006-02-01 04:16:08]

User currently offlineFlyHoss From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 598 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 15083 times:

I wonder how much (how many aircraft) of a production run, of a brand new type, it would take for a manufacturer to break even?

Would Airbus, Boeing, Embraer, Bombardier/Canadair be willing to create a new type designed for AA? Getting an order for 300 aircraft to replace the 300 MD-80s seems like a big incentive to me...



A little bit louder now, a lil bit louder now...
User currently offlineN908AW From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 922 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 15083 times:

AA needs a PLANELOAD of cash to replace the MD-80, they have upwards of 200 in the fleet. A viable solution would be to order more 738s and get some 73Gs, 'twould be the most financially/physically sound solution.

Airbus is not the answer when they already have a Boeing product that is much like an MD-80 replacement.

[Edited 2006-02-01 04:17:20]


'Cause you're on ATA again, and on ATA, you're on vacation!
User currently offlineETStar From Canada, joined Jan 2004, 2103 posts, RR: 7
Reply 4, posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 15083 times:

Quoting N908AW (Reply 3):
Reply 3, posted Wed Feb 1 2006 04:15:24 UTC+1 and read 0 times:

What???
AA still has MD-80s?!?
Those things should be falling out of the sky by now!
Weren't they made like 20 years ago?

Where have you been all this time? hahaha I am sure you have seen them at some airport some time in the past year ... they're EVERYWHERE!


User currently offlineN908AW From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 922 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 15051 times:

Yes, it was a joke man, mimicking the nutcases in the NW DC9 threads that had those kind of comments. MD-80s are the bomb.


'Cause you're on ATA again, and on ATA, you're on vacation!
User currently offlineCure From Italy, joined Sep 2005, 227 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 15020 times:

Sorry for arguing, but...:

if we are talking about a free market (IF), why aren't they even saying anything about Airbus? I guess it should be considered.
Are Airbuses less reliable? Not at all...
Do Embraers burn more fuel than a MD80? Don't think so...

Regards,

V

[Edited 2006-02-01 04:25:08]

User currently offlineDLPMMM From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 3589 posts, RR: 10
Reply 7, posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 14936 times:

Quoting Cure (Reply 6):
if we are talking about a free market (IF), why aren't they even saying anything about Airbus? I guess it should be considered.
Are Airbuses less reliable? Not at all...

This is a free market situation.

There is not much of a chance that AA will buy any Airbus Aircraft in the future, since the two companies had a very large and very public falling out over a certain A-300 incident.

Airbus was free to alienate the largest airline in the world, and AA is free to never consider another Airbus product for purchase.


User currently offlineMidnightMike From United States of America, joined Mar 2003, 2892 posts, RR: 14
Reply 8, posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 14911 times:

Quoting Cure (Reply 6):
Sorry for arguing, but...:

if we are talking about a free market (IF), why aren't they even saying anything about Airbus? I guess it should be considered.
Are Airbuses less reliable? Not at all...
Do Embraers burn more fuel than a MD80? Don't think so...

Normally, Airbus would be a consideration & a talking point, but, after the A300 incident, it is no big secret that the relations between Airbus & American Airlines have somewhat soured..



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User currently offlineAA737-823 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 5722 posts, RR: 11
Reply 9, posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 14884 times:

Quoting Cure (Reply 6):
Are Airbuses less reliable? Not at all...

Don't tell Northwest that... they seem to grumble otherwise. Something about their 30+ year old DC-9s having a higher dispatch reliability than their new A-319s.... Ask Favre about that... He can give you the skinny.

And a high-rolling carrier can get just as good a deal from Boeing as they can from Airbus.
I can see no compelling reason for AA to order an Airbus. The 737NG flies higher/faster/farther/on less fuel than the A32X series, so Airbus would have to come out with something really incredible to get AA's attention.

And what is that I hear about vertical stabilizers falling off? And then Airbus came out and said that AA's pilot training was dangerous and inadequate?

The Europeans need to learn about a thing we Americani call "Customer Service."

Granted, we've outsourced MOST of our customer service to India, but hey.
Airbus shoudl have learned from Boeing's mistake when they alienated USAir the same exact way- blame a crash on pilot error when the rudder to that 737 froze hardover.

Sigh. Stupid politics and finger pointing.

My vote is put some winglets on the -80s and fly 'em till 2025.


User currently offlineDfwRevolution From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 960 posts, RR: 51
Reply 10, posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 14812 times:

Quoting FlyHoss (Reply 2):
I wonder how much (how many aircraft) of a production run, of a brand new type, it would take for a manufacturer to break even?

For the 737NG replacement, the project might cost around $2-3 billion, depending of course on the scope of the introductory variants. Amortization of the project launch might be obtained at a conservative number of airframes. Put another way: WN alone or WN combine with any other major carrier could assume almost the entire launch risk.

Quoting Cure (Reply 6):
if we are talking about a free market (IF), why aren't they even saying anything about Airbus?

1. AA has a significant number of outstanding deposits on Boeing 737-800 scheduled for 2012 delivery.
2. It would be a simpler affair to roll these orders into another Boeing product
3. What makes you certain Airbus will necessarily have a Y1 competitor at the same time as Boeing? The 787 was unrivaled by Airbus for more than a year, but that didn't stop many carriers from taking advantage of early launch position.
4. Will AA and Airbus necessarily return to friendly status after the bridge burning-fest after AA587? The checkbook speaks, but memories are long-lived.

Quoting Cure (Reply 6):
Are Airbuses less reliable? Not at all...

Might tell that to AA's A300 staff...

I might also add that the 777 has dispatch reliability 1-2% greater than the A330/A340. Boeing also did not suffer EIS reliability problems that Airbus encountered with the A346 despite a program goal of EIS reliability on par with a mature product. The 737NG still enjoys a simmilar edge over the A320.

Quoting Cure (Reply 6):
Do Embraers burn more fuel than a MD80? Don't think so...

Well duh... there isn't a single Embraer that is mission compatible with the MD80. The biggest Embraer has approx 25% fewer seats than AA's MD80, hardly a suitable replacement for AA's mainline backbone regardless of fuel burn. The likelyhood of Embraer offering a full-sized narrowbody has been discussed ad naseum.

Quoting N908AW (Reply 3):
A viable solution would be to order more 738s and get some 73Gs, 'twould be the most financially/physically sound solution.

Like you said, the money isn't available. By the time AA starts accepting new 737NG, the first 737 replacement might very well be approaching roll-out. IMO, what's the value in paying about the same for obsolete aircraft? The solution to MD80 replacement does not rest with any product flying today.

Quoting FlyHoss (Reply 2):
Would Airbus, Boeing, Embraer, Bombardier/Canadair be willing to create a new type designed for AA?

Just for AA? Probably not. The carrier with the single most weight is still probably WN. However, what WN wants will probably be closely aligned with what everyone else wants: dramatically lower opperating cost, fuel burn, and financial risk.

Quoting ETStar (Reply 1):
Why the winglets on the 73s? Do they currently fly distances that cannot be matched with those of the 80s?

Range is irrelevant. After even the shortest flights, the AVBP winglets reduce cruise SFC by 5-8%. That's big bucks.

I also recal an AA statement that every 50 lbs of non-essential weight removed from an MD80 saves almost $1,000,000 in fuel over a year. Looking at the 700 lb weight reduction of the new 737NG carbon brake option, perhaps an MD80 carbon brake option would be a cheaper (lower risk) way to reduce MD80 cost than re-engine or winglet schemes?

Even reducing 200-300 lbs would be big.


User currently offlineBohica From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 2670 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 14812 times:

A friend of mine is an AA MD-80 pilot. He told me that AA was considering re-engining the MD-80's with the RR/BMW engine. Does anyone know anything about this?

User currently offlineDfwRevolution From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 960 posts, RR: 51
Reply 12, posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 14788 times:

Quoting Bohica (Reply 11):
He told me that AA was considering re-engining the MD-80's with the RR/BMW engine. Does anyone know anything about this?

It's been an ongoing rumour for some time, and AA is considering power plant options for the MD80. To my knowledge, there hasn't yet been anything offical that would hint they are seriously moving in that direction (i.e. accepting bids for the conversion, etc, etc), they are just looking at the feasability and cost/benefits.

The BR715 and PW6000 would both fit the bill. AA is a very large Rolls Royce customer with RB.211 (Trent) powered 777 and 757. PW, however, is the current OEM for the MD80 powerplant thus having a vested interest in keeping them Pratt powered. It would also give the PW6000A a much needed break.


User currently offlineCure From Italy, joined Sep 2005, 227 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 14772 times:

Quoting AA737-823 (Reply 9):
I can see no compelling reason for AA to order an Airbus. The 737NG flies higher/faster/farther/on less fuel than the A32X series, so Airbus would have to come out with something really incredible to get AA's attention.

Like the price, maybe?...  Wink

Quoting AA737-823 (Reply 9):
they seem to grumble otherwise. Something about their 30+ year old DC-9s having a higher dispatch reliability than their new A-319s....

they seem...but the figures?

Quoting AA737-823 (Reply 9):
And what is that I hear about vertical stabilizers falling off? And then Airbus came out and said that AA's pilot training was dangerous and inadequate?

Didn't AA change their manual for pilots after the accident?
Why didn't AA avoid to spend money changing procedures if it really wasn't their fault at all?
C'mon, give us a break please...

Quoting DLPMMM (Reply 7):
There is not much of a chance that AA will buy any Airbus Aircraft in the future, since the two companies had a very large and very public falling out over a certain A-300 incident.

...and AA is openly committed to Boeing (this is very weird in an open market)!

Quoting DLPMMM (Reply 7):
Airbus was free to alienate the largest airline in the world, and AA is free to never consider another Airbus product for purchase.

If your satisfied with this explanation...

Quoting AA737-823 (Reply 9):
The Europeans need to learn about a thing we Americani call "Customer Service."

Someone has to learn how to listen and learn before talking nonsense. I wasn't saying Americans, but just American Airlines. Are you AA?

Regards,

V


User currently offlineCure From Italy, joined Sep 2005, 227 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 14686 times:

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 10):
4. Will AA and Airbus necessarily return to friendly status after the bridge burning-fest after AA587? The checkbook speaks, but memories are long-lived.

I'd like to say that in all respect for who lost the life in that accident:
try to take off and fly 1,5mins in a 747's wake turbulence. Try to do it with a Boeing and tell me

I'm not arguing with the rest since some explanations like

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 10):
2. It would be a simpler affair to roll these orders into another Boeing product

are called "fried air" here in Europe,
but just one question:

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 10):
1. AA has a significant number of outstanding deposits on Boeing 737-800 scheduled for 2012 delivery.

How much is "significant"? Just to have an idea of how many new airframes they need apart from these?
Thank you,

V


User currently offlineDfwRevolution From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 960 posts, RR: 51
Reply 15, posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 14653 times:

Quoting Cure (Reply 13):
Didn't AA change their manual for pilots after the accident?

AA changed the pilot procedure, but the A300 rudder system was hardly deemed perfect. The fact that Airbus insisted it was entirely the responsibility of the pilot when there is a credible case that Airbus should consider a control mechanism modification may keep AA from returning with their business for some time.

Quoting Cure (Reply 13):
...and AA is openly committed to Boeing (this is very weird in an open market)!

Good grief, who gives a flying flip about AA being an 'open market?' You aren't even using open (more commonly known as free) markets in the proper context.

The United States is free market in that AA can purchase an Airbus airplane without massive import taxes being levyed on the foreign-assembled product. AA isn't the market, the United States is! AA is a customer within the market. No one in the government is telling AA which way to direct their order. That is a free market.

AA can bias their order all they want toward manufacture loyalty, sweetheart deals, past relationships, or simply the whims of the corperate staff. Just because the U.S. has free market import laws doesn't mean AA must give Airbus a second of their time. This doesn't change the U.S. status as a free market Airbus importer one bit.


User currently offlineAAden From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 835 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 14653 times:

i don't think american will be buying any airbus aircraft for a long time. they will probably replace their super80s with 738s

User currently offlineDfwRevolution From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 960 posts, RR: 51
Reply 17, posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 14582 times:

Quoting Cure (Reply 14):
try to take off and fly 1,5mins in a 747's wake turbulence. Try to do it with a Boeing and tell me

The aircraft was not downed by the turbulence. It was downed by the rudder deflection that torqued the A300 tail past its design tolerance.

The control mechanism and feedback of Boeing aircraft are totally different. To say the accident would have occured in the exact same manner with a 767 or 777 is incredibly dense. The A300 itself was more than capable of emerging from the turbulence without damage.

The falling out was over AA who insisted that the rudder mechanism allowed extremly violent deflections without adaquet feedback to the pilots and Airbus who insisted it was the responsibility of the FO. Was it worth pissing off the strongest of the U.S. legacy carriers with the largest fleet (and thus fleet replacement needs) in the world just to pass the buck entirely on AA?

Quoting Cure (Reply 14):
How much is "significant"? Just to have an idea of how many new airframes they need apart from these?

(47) 737-800 are still on order from Boeing, with deliveries resuming in 2012.

Approx value likely in excess of $2 billion dollars. Assuming 1:1 replacement of MD80, that would still leave approx 250 MD80 for replacement.


User currently offlineBWIA 772 From Barbados, joined May 2002, 2200 posts, RR: 2
Reply 18, posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 14571 times:

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 10):
For the 737NG replacement, the project might cost around $2-3 billion, depending of course on the scope of the introductory variants. Amortization of the project launch might be obtained at a conservative number of airframes. Put another way: WN alone or WN combine with any other major carrier could assume almost the entire launch risk.

Very true. AA involvement in the 737NG replacement would be critical as this new family of aircraft may not only replace their MD80 fleet but a larger version may replace the 757 fleet.

If AA does look at their International fleet first and then their domestic fleet it would give Boeing the opportunity to show how its new line up can serve from the 100 short range to the 250+ long range market.



Eagles Soar!
User currently offlineDLPMMM From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 3589 posts, RR: 10
Reply 19, posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 14571 times:

Quoting Cure (Reply 13):
...and AA is openly committed to Boeing (this is very weird in an open market)!

Your comment here makes no sense. It is not uncommon or "weird" for an airline to have a stated brand preference in an open market.

Ever see a computer comercial with the little "Intel Inside" blurb at the end?

Open markets has to do with government interference in purchasing decisions. This interference can span a spectrum from import tarrifs and taxes, to the outright mandate of directed purchase.


User currently offlineAAR90 From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 3465 posts, RR: 47
Reply 20, posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 14515 times:

Quoting ETStar (Reply 1):
Why the winglets on the 73s?

Fuel savings = cost savings. The higher the price of fuel, the more attractive the winglet option becomes.

Quoting Cure (Reply 13):
Didn't AA change their manual for pilots after the accident?

Yes, with additional information about rudder design limits. No procedural changes.

Quoting Cure (Reply 13):
...and AA is openly committed to Boeing (this is very weird in an open market)!

Yes. AA & Boeing reached a 20 year exclusivity agreement about a decade ago whereby AA will never pay more than any other purchaser of the same Boeing product. The contractual _requirement_ has since been negated, but the parties have been abiding to the original terms (i.e. gentlemen's agreement).

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 15):
AA changed the pilot procedure

NO! AA changed no procedures. AA manuals now include additional information and A300 crews receive additional training, but no procedures have been changed.

Quoting AAden (Reply 16):
they will probably replace their super80s with 738s

We are starting to see indications that support the rumors that AA's long term future fleet will be 777, 787, and the 738/MD80 (a new design) replacement.



*NO CARRIER* -- A Naval Aviator's worst nightmare!
User currently offlineScottB From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 6709 posts, RR: 32
Reply 21, posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 14480 times:

Quoting Cure (Reply 13):
Why didn't AA avoid to spend money changing procedures if it really wasn't their fault at all?

Well, because regardless of whose fault it actually was, it benefits AA to not have vertical stabilizers breaking off of their aircraft -- which tends to make people think the planes the airline flies might just be unsafe.

Quoting Cure (Reply 13):
...and AA is openly committed to Boeing (this is very weird in an open market)

Well one of the world's most profitable airlines (Southwest) is openly committed to Boeing, and it doesn't seem to be hurting them very much.


Quoting Cure (Reply 13):
Quoting AA737-823 (Reply 9):
I can see no compelling reason for AA to order an Airbus. The 737NG flies higher/faster/farther/on less fuel than the A32X series, so Airbus would have to come out with something really incredible to get AA's attention.

Like the price, maybe?...

Well, perhaps AA's management is smart enough to understand that the initial purchase price is but a tiny fraction of the total cost of operating an airliner. Faster cruise speed and lower fuel consumption -- even by only a percent or two -- can save tens of millions of dollars a year when multiplied by hundreds of aircraft. Often, as the old saying goes, you get what you pay for.

In any case, I suspect that AA's dilemma lies largely in the fact that the MD-80 fleet is 14 years old on average. It's difficult to amortize the cost of winglets or engine upgrades when you're roughly halfway through the expected lifespan of your average airframe, though I suppose engines do have to be replaced periodically. It's easy to justify winglets on nearly new 737NG's given that you can expect those to pay for themselves over the next twenty years.


User currently offlineCure From Italy, joined Sep 2005, 227 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 14416 times:

Quoting AAR90 (Reply 20):
Yes. AA & Boeing reached a 20 year exclusivity agreement about a decade ago whereby AA will never pay more than any other purchaser of the same Boeing product. The contractual _requirement_ has since been negated, but the parties have been abiding to the original terms (i.e. gentlemen's agreement).

Thanks for the info.


User currently offlineETStar From Canada, joined Jan 2004, 2103 posts, RR: 7
Reply 23, posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 14359 times:

Quoting Cure (Reply 6):

if we are talking about a free market (IF), why aren't they even saying anything about Airbus? I guess it should be considered.

It ain't so free after all eh  Smile Also, chances are, they will get screwed eventually if they stick to one manufacturer and openly express that they will not deal with a competitor.

Quoting AA737-823 (Reply 9):

And a high-rolling carrier can get just as good a deal from Boeing as they can from Airbus.
I can see no compelling reason for AA to order an Airbus. The 737NG flies higher/faster/farther/on less fuel than the A32X series, so Airbus would have to come out with something really incredible to get AA's attention.

And what is that I hear about vertical stabilizers falling off? And then Airbus came out and said that AA's pilot training was dangerous and inadequate?

The Europeans need to learn about a thing we Americani call "Customer Service."

Granted, we've outsourced MOST of our customer service to India, but hey.
Airbus shoudl have learned from Boeing's mistake when they alienated USAir the same exact way- blame a crash on pilot error when the rudder to that 737 froze hardover.

Sure a high rolling carrier will get discounts, more like volume discounts. But when you factor the discounts that could be attained by having a second supplier drive down B's price (as shown at many other airlines), there will still be a loss on AA's side somewhere. If there is a fallout with B and AA, then we could also very well see an all-CRJ stubborn AA!

And don't start with Customer Service. It goes both ways, not when AA is on the receiving end. Have you received the Customer Service from AA throughout all your dealings with them? This is not about a customer service issue, but more about an issue related to who takes the blame and who pays for the accident. Especially when the whole industry was at the height of losing passengers and it was face-saving time. If AA really had an issue with the A300s, they would not be flying them today. Finally, another 737 crash, especially at AA, and we shall see what comes out of it. Knock on wood, however.

Quoting Cure (Reply 13):
...and AA is openly committed to Boeing (this is very weird in an open market)!

My sentiments exactly. I wonder what led to AA's and CO's and DL's one-supplier policy... hmmm free market?


User currently offlineCkfred From United States of America, joined Apr 2001, 5171 posts, RR: 1
Reply 24, posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 14328 times:

First of all, AA signed a contract with Boeing in late 1996 to replace its fleet over 20 years. At that time, AA had about 625 aircraft. So far, AA has taken delivery of about 200 or so aircraft, thus AA is holding rights to more than 400 slots over the next 10 years or so. AA isn't about to go to Airbus, when it already has pricing in place for Boeing aircraft.

Second, a friend of mine is an AA 757/767 F/O. What he has heard is pure speculation by pilots, but there is a belief that AA could retire the first 40 to 60 MD-80s that it received from McD and replace them with 737-800s. AA still has 45 or 50 -800s on order. AA is supposed to resume taking deliveries in 2012 or 2013, but Boeing is able to push up delivery dates, if AA wants planes earlier.

The oldest MD-80s are needing more maintenance, and the point will come when the economics will point to replacement.

As for the balance of the MD-80 fleet, the belief is that AA is waiting to see what Boeing's plans are for the all-composite successor to the 737NG. WN has expressed interest in such a plane. My guess is that since AA is in no hurry to replace the MD-80 fleet, it probably prefers to wait for a Boeing aircraft that is superior to the 737NG in terms of operating costs.

What I'm curious about is AA's plans to replace the F100. Right now, AA has nothing between the CRJ (70 seats) and the MD-80 (136 seats). AA has had to make do with putting CRJs and Embrears on routes that used to be exclusively mainline.

The problem is that operating RJs has been a problem at ORD, with the FAA-imposed caps, as well as irritating elite flyers who now can't get upgraded. For instance, 4 out of the 7 flights between ORD and ATL are operated with CRJs. Meanwhile, DL is still operating all mainline between ORD and ATL. If AA had a 100-seat plane, it could fly 6 roundtrips between ORD and ATL. This would free up an arrival and departure slot at ORD and allow AA to offer first class on all flights.

Right now, the 737-600 doesn't work as a short and medium-haul aircraft, and the Embrear 190 would be introducing another fleet type.

If Boeing does offer a 100-seat airplane, capable of flying routes from 250 miles to 2500 miles economically, as part of the line of replacements for the entire 737NG line, does AA look at ordering an additional 75 to 100 planes, on top of the number of planes needed to replace the MD-80s?


25 Commavia : Well, since AA obviously knows quite a bit more about the economics of the deal, how it is structured, and what it means for AA's finances, I think t
26 TUNisia : Would Boeing ever reopen the 717 line? I know.... I'm dreaming.
27 Lufthansa : I think it would very smart of AA to replace the JT8D's and keep the MD-80s. If assume demand for oil continues at the present rate, I think in the ne
28 WesternA318 : "AA needs a PLANELOAD of cash to replace the MD-80" Umm...with respect to how much money would be needed, in todays dollars, better make it two or thr
29 Cschleic : Isn't it about 335 MD-80's as of end of last year? Certainly is a boatload of planes to replace. Even if they could afford three of something a month
30 Ckfred : WesternA318: In the 30s, 40s, and 50s, a lot of airlines flew either all Douglas airplanes or mainly Douglas. Douglas was the dominant manufacturer. B
31 FlyDreamliner : I think AA is in much the same case United was with their fleet of 732, 733, and 735's. But they started taking pretty speedy deliveries from Airbus o
32 Jacobin777 : good points you had up there in your thread, but I would like to add that they have tons of powerports in their economy section and I see many people
33 Ken777 : I can't see AA making a decision of a replacement until Boeing releases Y1. First there is the profit & cash position. Then there is the fact that Y1
34 Bennett123 : DfwRevolution The falling out was over AA who insisted that the rudder mechanism allowed extremly violent deflections without adaquet feedback to the
35 CHRISBA777ER : Interesting that AA has such a loyalty to RR engines. Why is this? Any ideas? Is it a we-like-Britain political thing, or a MX/performance thing? Ok h
36 RICARDOAB : Just out of interest. I know its a bit late now, but would the B717 have been a like-on-like replacement for the MD-80s, especially if Boeing had offe
37 PHLBOS : Not quite. The originally proposed stretch 717-300, had it made production, would have been about the same size as the DC-9-50. The MD-80s (aka DC-9-
38 Aviator27 : The B737NG does fly higher than A32x (Max Operating Altitude is FL410 compared to FL398 for A32x). The B737NG does cruise faster than A32x (normal cru
39 Lincoln : Why do you think it is weird in a 'open' (aka free) market? For some examples - Air travel, in general, is a "open" market... I am 'openly committed'
40 Post contains images YOW : Here, here. And while we're at it put some winglets on NW's DC-9s and fly 'em forever (sorry, couldn't resist). Maybe in about 10-15 years would be a
41 WhiteHatter : Winglets on an MD-80 are not such a good idea as that wing is about as close to aviation perfection as you can get. Douglas designed a true classic wh
42 D950 : Does AA have enough leverage with Boeing to even ask?? it seems a 717-400 or a perfect MD90 would be the answer.
43 Post contains images Litz : Just out of curiosity ... does anyone have ballpark figures for re-engining a MD80 versus a newbuild 737-800 ? If you redid the avionics, and put a c
44 Lufthansa : Well, the engines are going to cost somewhere around $3million each for that size. AA may get better prices due to sheer volume. But they're are goin
45 N328KF : You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.—Inigo Montoya "Free market" means "free from government interference," n
46 AAR90 : Correct. AA has never contended A300-600R has a serious design flaw. Only that the rudder control system contributed to the mishap and Airbus should
47 DIA : This thread has at least one definate fact quoted above. And you can bet, if 300 A^A a/c need replacing and A^A is not exactly happy with the replace
48 BlueSky1976 : Tell that to BA and UA... Why would AA take a delivery of 738 in 2012, when there would be a much more comfortable and economical Yellowstone-1 avail
49 PHLBOS : They had a worthy mainline replacement for the F100s staring them right in the face... the ex-TW 717s. Even after Boeing offered AA a one-for-one (F1
50 Acjflyer : Curiosity driven question. I personally have loved the MD-80 since the first time I flew on it SLC-SNA years ago. I also love that the engines are mou
51 ChrisNH : so AA is worried about the next type of plane they'll have to park in the desert???
52 Starlionblue : If you order 300+ airplanes, commonality pretty much takes care of itself. Just as their 738 fleet is larger than most airlines' entire fleet. Since
53 Post contains images FXramper : I didn't read all the replies, but is Boeing working on a new version of the 737? AA could use it if it was in developement. I just saw Boeing CEO spe
54 Bennett123 : AAR90 The repeated rudder reversals, which imposed loads well above the certified limits were down to AA. The next issue is whether this was down to t
55 Post contains links Starlionblue : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_Yellowstone
56 Malaysia : How about 2080 lets see the new thread about, "when will AA get rid of its 100 year old MD-80s?"
57 WhiteHatter : rubbish. The 'built at a loss' chestnut relates to Douglas accounting practices. MD-80 sales were in the thousands. Douglas managed to show that the
58 2travel2know : Does the B737-600 come close to the smaller MD80's? Since AA is already a B737 customer, a fleet of B737-600/700/800/900 could save them money becaus
59 Starlionblue : First of all, AA doesn't have the "smaller MD80s" (MD-87). Secondly, as I said before, if you're buying 350+ planes commonality is not really an issu
60 IRelayer : Does anyone else hate the fact that MD aircraft are now referred to in the media as "Boeing" aircraft? You always see "Boeing MD-11" "Boeing MD-80" or
61 Ckfred : AA's contract with Boeing, signed in late 1996, has pricing formulas for both existing models and future models, such as the 787. Obviously, contract
62 Post contains images Cure : 1): ETstar is Canadian 2): I am Italian 3): I am not Alitalia pay attention, please V
63 Cure : Talking about a free market and you're not even considering going abroad, something I and many people I know from here consider like no-problem, usua
64 Supa7E7 : Yes, many consumers are being tricked by several airlines' fraudulent advertising of Boeing DC-10s and Boeing MD-80s. Some people love to fly on Boei
65 Starlionblue : I think those people who actually care (a.nutters and the like) know better. The vast majority don't know what plane they are on.
66 AAR90 : Not sure what you are trying to say here. There is and has never been any AA procedure that calls for rudder reversals. If there has never been any A
67 WAH64D : The order books for last year would suggest otherwise! I've had the pleasure of flying on 2 MD-80 series aircraft, BWIA MD-83 and Iberia MD-88. I hop
68 Commavia : I'm paying plenty of attention, thank you. I was referring more to #2 than to #1. While I could clearly see that ETstar is Canadian, he was referenci
69 JAXFLL : That may have been the public falling out, but there was a not so public falling out when the first A300 was delivered with white paint on it. Contra
70 Post contains images Lightsaber : While the devil will be in the details, if AA is thinking of a 10 year timeframe, it should be worth changing powerplants. I like the idea of a PW600
71 PHLBOS : From what I understand and as you correctly stated, the high lease rates was the primary reason that AA decided to return the 717s; however Boeing wa
72 DfwRevolution : BA got burned by GE, not Boeing, on a clean sheet engine. UA got burned on an after-market IFE system. The A346 was not a clean-sheet design, and Air
73 Cancidas : i remember recently reading that the stage 4 JT8D has been certified. IMO, AA is spending better money to re-engine newer S80 sirframes while they foc
74 Lincoln : If I'm not mistaken that contract (and similar ones with other airlines -- Delta, and Continental?) were voided as part of some international trade a
75 Starlionblue : Absolutely, but all we have are the public statements, made for public consumption. We don't really know what AA and Airbus are saying to each other
76 Swissy : My guess is: 1. No money to spare, so they moved the 737 deliveries back to 2012-13 2. There is a lack of alternatives for AA in the MD80 market as of
77 Phxfly : Just like Boeing alienated the old USAir after the Flt. 427 crash. Boeing hypothesized the crash could have been pilot error, USAir got pissed, publi
78 ContnlEliteCMH : I love how those of you who live in countries with far more taxation, far more regulation, and far more government-owned *industries* (let alone sing
79 Hiflyer : First off AMR is carrying approx $20B in debt right now which is hindering a lot of things...the A300 is on the property because they can't afford to
80 Commavia : I think many within AA would agree that, given their relative age, the MD80s perform fairly well. They actually still have pretty good operating econ
81 Ewmahle : If AA were to keep the MD fleet going and invest some money, sure they can throw some engines on and maybe some winglets, but what about Airframe Fati
82 Warreng24 : When AA retires their last MD-80, the crew will be flown out on a NW DC-9.
83 Hiflyer : The MD11's were failing to hit any performance mark that AA wanted...at the same time Delta ALPA was demanding an extreme payscale for the 777 as wel
84 DfwRevolution : If the DC-9 is any indication, the MD-80 is capable of taking quite a pounding. Much of the structure between the DC9/MD80 is simmilar with the same
85 Dc10guy : 737 winglets are nothing more than a fashion statement ...
86 Bennett123 : AAR90 Quoting Bennett123 (Reply 54): AAR90 The repeated rudder reversals, which imposed loads well above the certified limits were down to AA. Not sur
87 Starlionblue : Hehe. I am European and I fully agree. The argument was badly formulated from the start. Free market mean being free to choose whichever supplier you
88 FlyDreamliner : Here's a scenario. What if AA never intends to take delivery of those 738s in 2012. What if they are place-holders for the first Y1's. What if there i
89 Ckfred : You're quite right that the basic DC-9/MD-80 airframe is very durable. My friend who flies 757s and 767s for AA tells me that even the planes deliver
90 AAR90 : Nobody has claimed AA is not responsible for the pilots' actions/inactions. Airbus has claimed AA PROCEDURES caused the mishap. PROCEDURES Airbus APP
91 WAH64D : Airlines do not order unreliable aircraft. You stated that the B737NG series had an edge over the A320 series. My point is that I find it hard to see
92 FlyDreamliner : It's sad the MD-80/MD-90 aircraft disappeared. They were a phenomenally solid and well designed fleet. With the IAE V2500s on the MD-90, it was an air
93 LMP737 : The MD-90 is a good aircraft, when it works.
94 Post contains images Starlionblue : Call me crazy but I'm pretty sure they did think of that Just because sales are greater doesn't mean profits are greater. You're essentially doubling
95 Post contains images PHLBOS :    I totally agree with you on that one. Again, as I stated earlier; there was NO carrier in the U.S.A. that was interested in getting more F100s a
96 Bennett123 : It seems reasonable that Airbus should clarify that AA Procedures are OK, but that the AA pilot failed to follow them. However, Airbus need to make it
97 Hiflyer : Does anyone think that AA will sacrifice the 71-141 seat market in the near future? They don't have anything in that range except the MD80 at 130 seat
98 Sabenapilot : It does? Is that valid for each NG version? In their standard configuration? All in one and the same mission profile? Compared to all A32F versions?
99 Tornado82 : The whole thing about AA buying Airbuses is simple. Texas-based airlines don't buy Airbuses. Period. AA (now), WN, CO. How many Airbuses are in those
100 Post contains images Starlionblue : Don't mess... with Texas...
101 SaabFA71 : Nevertheless, I wonder if American ever has second thoughts about not keeping the ex-TWA 717s? The aircraft would have been the ideal replacement for
102 Yyz717 : With 350+ M80's, AA SHOULD be buying replacement aircraft constantly (say minimum 18/year) just to keep the entire shorthaul fleet from aging or havin
103 Post contains images AA737-823 : Uh, AA and CO have both bought and operated Airbusses in the past. In trying to make Texans look dumb (something we're accustomed to, but don't apprec
104 A342 : Actually they do. Just have a look at their website. And the success of the A32S speaks for itself.
105 SafetyDude : We've established AA's reason, and I think DL got upset over some A310s in the '90s and CO had some other incident. You may be interested to know tha
106 Columba : The biggest problem with a MD 80 replacement is, is when the last one of the successor airplane is delivered the first ones will need to be replaced a
107 Ckfred : Hiflyer: You bring up an interesting point. When AMR announced that it was going to buy CRJ-700s, APA, American's pilot union, said that it wanted to
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