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KLM Non-stop To LIM By Summer's End!  
User currently offlineKLMCedric From Belgium, joined Dec 2003, 810 posts, RR: 22
Posted (8 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 6073 times:

Nothing official yet, so don't take my word for it, but normally around the end
of the summerschedule KLM will introduce non-stop 772ER service to Lima.
The downside of this is that KL would cease operations to BON .
Quito and Guayaquil would be operated from either CUR or AUA.
Lots of crew will be very dissapointed if BON is no more, it is a very popular
destination.
You can ask me for sources about this, I won't give them. You can choose to
believe me or not. These plans are being made, and there's a very high
probability of them being executed!!!
Cheers

51 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineSK601 From Belgium, joined Jun 2005, 976 posts, RR: 4
Reply 1, posted (8 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 6059 times:

Good news for LIM!

Not good for BON....   , I am surprised that -according to your post- KL will drop BON completely. Is a combination with SXM a possibility? Now SXM is combined with CUR, but what about AMS-SXM-BON-AMS with the MD11?

Will KL start a cooperation with 9H (again) for the demand to BON?

......interesting developments.....


oeps: I just saw that the cursor will tell you that 9H is EcoAir from Algeria, but 9H is also the prefix for Dutch Antilles Express.

[Edited 2006-02-02 19:24:06]

User currently offlineAvianca From Venezuela, joined Jan 2005, 5900 posts, RR: 40
Reply 2, posted (8 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 6034 times:

I can not belive KLM will cut BON, it would be like BA would cut HKG.

regards
Avianca



Colombia es el Mundo Y el Mundo es Colombia
User currently offlineJuventus From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 2835 posts, RR: 2
Reply 3, posted (8 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 6002 times:

Congratulations to Peru (if this happens). The Peruvian Government has been trying really hard to attract tourism. But I don't think the loads on the LIM route will match the loads on the BON.

User currently offlineSK601 From Belgium, joined Jun 2005, 976 posts, RR: 4
Reply 4, posted (8 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 5981 times:

Quoting Juventus (Reply 3):
But I don't think the loads on the LIM route will match the loads on the BON.

I do the gate handling for KL741 AMS-BON-LIM quite often and usually it's 20/80. So 20% of the pax is for BON and 80% for LIM, sometimes even 10/90.


User currently offlineMauriceB From Netherlands, joined Aug 2004, 2487 posts, RR: 25
Reply 5, posted (8 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 5932 times:

Lots of crew will be very dissapointed if BON is no more, it is a very popular
destination


well when looking at the amount of pax, that isnt true. BON is a small island wich only receives the dutch people living there in the winter or people wich come for diving.

When were talking about the crew, youre absolutely right, they have some great hotels there, and it even has the best rated ''Van der Valk'' of the world, wich i can tell you since iv been there, its almost like a litle village.

Quoting SK601 (Reply 4):
I do the gate handling for KL741 AMS-BON-LIM quite often and usually it's 20/80. So 20% of the pax is for BON and 80% for LIM, sometimes even 10/90.

thats about 118 pax a day from Holland, wich isnt really much ofcourse and can perfectly be handled by Bonair Express ,via CUR/AuA , wich KL has a good relationship with. And they are doing fine, except that they have to lease planes once in a while because the ATR's breek down quite a lot, at the Moment denim air is working for them since theire planes are getting a major over haul , so they can fly without breaking down eacht week.


User currently offlineFlyingfool From Netherlands, joined May 2005, 431 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (8 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 5842 times:

Quoting Avianca (Reply 2):
I can not belive KLM will cut BON, it would be like BA would cut HKG.

Just the same here...


User currently offlineJcavinato From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 520 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (8 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 5808 times:

On our vacations to BON in the 90s I always waited for the inbound KLM 747 inbound in the afternoons. Majestic looking thing.

User currently offlineA342 From Germany, joined Jul 2005, 4675 posts, RR: 3
Reply 8, posted (8 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 5788 times:

What about providing a minimum of direct service to BON, say a weekly A332 flight ?


Exceptions confirm the rule.
User currently offlineAvianca From Venezuela, joined Jan 2005, 5900 posts, RR: 40
Reply 9, posted (8 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 5767 times:

Quoting A342 (Reply 8):
What about providing a minimum of direct service to BON, say a weekly A332 flight ?

with currently 11 weekly flights (ok combined ones) should be a weekly A332 not enough. I would say 3 or 4 a week could work nonstop. or they could go daily combining with a new destination (BOG or SJO) came in my mind.

regards
Avianca



Colombia es el Mundo Y el Mundo es Colombia
User currently offlineLTU932 From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 13864 posts, RR: 50
Reply 10, posted (8 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 5759 times:

Quoting Avianca (Reply 2):
I can not belive KLM will cut BON, it would be like BA would cut HKG

Agreed. It's said that KL is cutting service to one of the Islands in the Antilles.

Quoting A342 (Reply 8):
What about providing a minimum of direct service to BON, say a weekly A332 flight ?

If, then it would be a seasonal service once a week, but with an MD-11.

[Edited 2006-02-02 22:29:38]

User currently offlineLTU932 From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 13864 posts, RR: 50
Reply 11, posted (8 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 5753 times:

Quoting Avianca (Reply 9):
or they could go daily combining with a new destination (BOG or SJO) came in my mind.

Yeah, why not? Though ETOPS could be a consideration as to why they wouldn't go with an A332 to those places. I'd go with the MD-11 as the plane that would fly into these destinations through BON.


User currently offlineHardiwv From Brazil, joined Oct 2004, 8780 posts, RR: 50
Reply 12, posted (8 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 5722 times:

Excellent news for LIM. It was high time for KL to offer a competitive nonstop service to LIM. I also hope UIO/GYE will soon be operated nonstop.

If you take into account the recent expansion in flights and frequencies (e.g. GRU, SCL, EZE, CCS, and also recently GIG, MEX, BOG), it shows that AF-KL is giving major attention to the Latin American market.

Quoting Avianca (Reply 2):
I can not belive KLM will cut BON, it would be like BA would cut HKG.

Well, sorry to say, but you cannot compare BON's importance to KL at the same level of HGK to BA. This argument that airlines operations to former colonies are always profitable does not always hold.

Quoting SK601 (Reply 4):
I do the gate handling for KL741 AMS-BON-LIM quite often and usually it's 20/80. So 20% of the pax is for BON and 80% for LIM, sometimes even 10/90.

Tks for the interesting information.

Rgs,


User currently offlineRootsAir From Costa Rica, joined Feb 2005, 4186 posts, RR: 41
Reply 13, posted (8 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 5704 times:

Yahoo! I will finally get to fly the 777! I awaited that moment ever since the 777 came out. enuff of the A340...
I might be going to LIM next October and I take this as an excellent news !



A man without the knowledge of his past history,culture and origins is like a tree without roots
User currently offlineAvianca From Venezuela, joined Jan 2005, 5900 posts, RR: 40
Reply 14, posted (8 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 5649 times:

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 12):
Well, sorry to say, but you cannot compare BON's importance to KL at the same level of HGK to BA. This argument that airlines operations to former colonies are always profitable does not always hold.

of course BON is not the same as HKG....

This argument hold not always but mostly.... btw BON isnt a former Dutch colonie, isnt it still under Dutch flag?



Colombia es el Mundo Y el Mundo es Colombia
User currently offlineHardiwv From Brazil, joined Oct 2004, 8780 posts, RR: 50
Reply 15, posted (8 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 5370 times:

Quoting Avianca (Reply 14):
of course BON is not the same as HKG....

So we agree. All in all, as I said, LIM more than deserves KLM nonstop service.

Quoting MauriceB (Reply 5):
thats about 118 pax a day from Holland, wich isnt really much ofcourse and can perfectly be handled by Bonair Express ,via CUR/AuA , wich KL has a good relationship with

Totally agree. KLM should only fly to one Ducth Caribbean destination and transfer pax to other Caribbean destinations with a regional partner.

Rgs,


User currently offlineAvianca From Venezuela, joined Jan 2005, 5900 posts, RR: 40
Reply 16, posted (8 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 5350 times:

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 15):
So we agree. All in all, as I said, LIM more than deserves KLM nonstop service.

well KLM has not so much competition on Europe-LIM service

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 15):
Totally agree. KLM should only fly to one Ducth Caribbean destination and transfer pax to other Caribbean destinations with a regional partner.

I didnt agree, it would be to much for one airport + a problem to transfer all the passengers.



Colombia es el Mundo Y el Mundo es Colombia
User currently offlineHardiwv From Brazil, joined Oct 2004, 8780 posts, RR: 50
Reply 17, posted (8 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 5333 times:

Quoting Avianca (Reply 16):
well KLM has not so much competition on Europe-LIM service

You could fly IB via MAD or many options via the US.

Why do you think that AF flies BOG nonstop? I think KL's decision is totally correct. LIM deserves nonstop operations.

Quoting Avianca (Reply 16):
it would be to much for one airport + a problem to transfer all the passengers

Disagree. Dutch Caribbean airports can handle this one daily flight easily (at least AUA or BON). Many of them were renovated and improved, including AUA which is named after Queen Beatrix (exaclty to lure KLM to continue operations there...).

The only reason why KL does not operate one single flights to one destination in the Dutch Caribbean is that it would lead to a big fight with the local administration which could end up at the Queens table.

Rgs,


User currently offlineAvianca From Venezuela, joined Jan 2005, 5900 posts, RR: 40
Reply 18, posted (8 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 5314 times:

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 17):
You could fly IB via MAD or many options via the US.

Why do you think that AF flies BOG nonstop? I think KL's decision is totally correct. LIM deserves nonstop operations.

yes IB has a daily flight, due this I posted not so much!

and of course the options via US or even Canada, but this option is even slower than a 1-stop flight ex europe.

AF flies to BOG nonstop because they can fill the flight without any problem.... for LIM I do not know, it seems at least at the past they were not able to fill the flight alone.

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 17):
Disagree. Dutch Caribbean airports can handle this one daily flight easily (at least AUA or BON). Many of them were renovated and improved, including AUA which is named after Queen Beatrix (exaclty to lure KLM to continue operations there...).

If I count all current flights to dutch caribbean airports, I think we have more than 1 daily flight or?

regards
Avianca



Colombia es el Mundo Y el Mundo es Colombia
User currently offlineAtnight From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 605 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (8 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 5285 times:

I would love to see a direct flight between AMS and UIO/GYE.... specially with their B777... The only downside of it would be that the "classic" MD-11 would no longer arrive to UIO... But for pax comfort and all, having a B777 service would be the best thing to happen to UIO in a long time.... Currently we have IB's A343 & A346, MN's A330s, TA's A320s, LAN's B763s, AA's B757s, CO and CM's B737s and AV's MD80s & B757s and of course, KLM's current MD11 (without counting the local airlines' classic 727 and F28s among others).
So, the only types of pax planes Ecuador lacks service of, are the 777 & 747 (The A300 goes to GYE with AA), so of the two, is very very unlikely we'll ever see a B747 service again (LH & AF used to send those in the 80s), so the only hope of a new type in the near future is the B777 with KLM.... It will be a great event!!
(BTW, did I mention that in the cargo sector, we do get the B747 and the MD-11 & DC-10s?, so technically, the only major type of aircraft missing from the picture, is the B777.... That's why I can't wait too see those here)...



B707 B727 B733/5/7/8/9 B742/4 B752/3 B763/4 B772 A310 A318/319/320 A332 A343 MD80 DC9/10 CRJ200 ERJ145 ERJ-170 Be1900 Da
User currently offlineAirKas1 From Netherlands, joined Dec 2003, 3943 posts, RR: 56
Reply 20, posted (8 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 5273 times:

Quoting Avianca (Reply 18):
If I count all current flights to dutch caribbean airports, I think we have more than 1 daily flight or?

BON has 4 daily MD-11 flights a day IIRC. CUR & AUA have 1 daily 744 I think.
Please correct me if I'm wrong


User currently offlineSK601 From Belgium, joined Jun 2005, 976 posts, RR: 4
Reply 21, posted (8 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 5250 times:

Quoting AirKas1 (Reply 20):
CUR & AUA have 1 daily 744 I think

KL733 AMS-AUA is MD11 and not daily (5 x week).
KL735 AMS-CUR is daily with B747-400, (3 x week via SXM as KL785)

KL741 AMS-BON-LIM is daily with MD11
KL753 AMS-BON-GYE-UIO is 4 x week with MD11

All services going daily in the summer, except SXM (daily via CDG with AF)


User currently offlineAvianca From Venezuela, joined Jan 2005, 5900 posts, RR: 40
Reply 22, posted (8 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 5240 times:

Quoting AirKas1 (Reply 20):
BON has 4 daily MD-11 flights a day IIRC. CUR & AUA have 1 daily 744 I think.
Please correct me if I'm wrong

BON has 11 weekly MD11

CUR has 9 weekly 747

AUA has 3 weekly MD11, and 2 weekly 747 (these are combined with CUR)



Colombia es el Mundo Y el Mundo es Colombia
User currently offlineHardiwv From Brazil, joined Oct 2004, 8780 posts, RR: 50
Reply 23, posted (8 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 5157 times:

Quoting Avianca (Reply 22):
BON has 11 weekly MD11

CUR has 9 weekly 747

AUA has 3 weekly MD11, and 2 weekly 747 (these are combined with CUR)

Fine, but flights operate with stop-over.

BON service would not be sustained with the continuation to LIM, GYE, UEO.
As stated above, for the LIM flight, 80 to 90% of pax are LIM-bound, only 10 to 20% are BON-bound pax.

Quoting Avianca (Reply 18):
AF flies to BOG nonstop because they can fill the flight without any problem.... for LIM I do not know, it seems at least at the past they were not able to fill the flight alone.

I imagine LIM can fill KL B777 without problem as well, otherwise KL would not plan the nonstop flight. Note that LIM will get the B777 while BOG gets AF A343.

Quoting Avianca (Reply 18):
If I count all current flights to dutch caribbean airports, I think we have more than 1 daily flight or?

My reference was to BON. Even so, in my view, 2 daily KL nonstop flights to the Ducth Caribbean (i.e. BON, CUR and AUA) would seam more than enough to take care of demand. BON service is linked to LIM/GYE/UEO, CUR to SXM and AUA (the only one not linked to any other destination) does not get daily service.

Rgs,


User currently offlineAvianca From Venezuela, joined Jan 2005, 5900 posts, RR: 40
Reply 24, posted (8 years 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 4967 times:

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 23):
Fine, but flights operate with stop-over.

BON service would not be sustained with the continuation to LIM, GYE, UEO.
As stated above, for the LIM flight, 80 to 90% of pax are LIM-bound, only 10 to 20% are BON-bound pax.

it would be very intresting if also the yield for the passengers to BON is such low, I doubt it!

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 23):
I imagine LIM can fill KL B777 without problem as well, otherwise KL would not plan the nonstop flight. Note that LIM will get the B777 while BOG gets AF A343.

well for me the A343 is not a bader(smaller) product than the 777, look the smallest aircraft for such routes AMS-LIM that KL has is the B777.
+
Do not forget still is nothing confirmed, just a rumor.

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 23):
CUR to SXM and AUA (the only one not linked to any other destination) does not get daily service.

not all CUR flights are linked / 3xweekly to SXM and 2xweekly to AUA the 4xweekly are nonstop.

regards
Avianca



Colombia es el Mundo Y el Mundo es Colombia
25 Lamedianaranja : BON and CUR are the Dutch Antilles, AUA is a country in itself. Both countries still have very strong ties with the Netherlands but are independent.
26 A388 : Interesting news. I saw this coming already. KL can easily connect their BON passengers via CUR. They airport capacity is there, especially with the n
27 Hardiwv : Agree with your opinion. LIM nonstop was already in the pipeline for some time. Correct.
28 Sxmna : In a nutshell: The Dutch Kingdom consists of 3 countries : 1) The Netherlands 2) The Netherlands Antilles (which consists of 5 islands CUR, BON, SXM,
29 Post contains images A388 : I would even go that far in saying that Dutch Antilles Express may also move its operations to CUR because of the larger capacity of our airport and m
30 A342 : Another possibility to keep BON service could be combinig it with the SXM flight (AMS-SXM-BON-AMS).
31 Post contains images Lamedianaranja : Thx, I forgot all about the last 3 AUA has status aparte, that's what I was trying to say. But years ago I tried to move to CUR and it was not possib
32 MauriceB : Totally agree. KLM should only fly to one Ducth Caribbean destination and transfer pax to other Caribbean destinations with a regional partner. Indeed
33 A388 : Hey MauriceB, I totally agree with you, it's sad news for BON but there's not much we can do about it unfortunately. CUR also felt it when KL left and
34 AA B777-200 : Hey guys! Well, that nonstop flight to LIM has always been on KLM's wishlist and if it's not this summer's end, trust me, some day it'll be there! I t
35 A388 : You are absolutely right, that's why I think the flight to UIO/GYE via either CUR or AUA will also not last long. As soon as KL has more 777s availab
36 AA B777-200 : Well Rodge, We'll see what BlueBird decides to do. There's been some discussions on that nonstop UIO/GYE 777, but that's not the top priority now, I t
37 Billy : BON kept KLM operations on the back of a fuel sweetheart deal. Ironic given the fuel was refined in CUR and shipped to the BON fuel farm that they had
38 A342 : I wasn´t talking about offering more seats to SXM. CUR is strong on its own, so why place the stop on the SXM-AMS route in CUR ? SXM-AMS nonstop isn
39 Avianca : well I am asking me, if BON is currently such a "small" destination for KLM why then they are currently 11 x weekly stopovers via BON and not for exam
40 AA B777-200 : Avianca, As Billy said, good fuel deals on BON. Don't forget that KLM also had catering problems on CUR and the 747s had to carry the catering for the
41 Billy : There is a new catering JV with KLM on CUR which should sort out the catering issue.
42 Hardiwv : Tks for the interesting insight. Indeed. I think BON was still in the network for political (i.e. royal) issues and the lack of a reliable regional p
43 Post contains links GlobeTrekker : One must remember that there was a point when BON had NO direct KLM link. If you wanted to get to BON, pax would have to fly to CUR and then transfer
44 Kappel : The summer schedule shows it as a 744 flight, I believe 4 times weekly, in stead of the current 3. It was rumored to be "downgraded" to the MD-11, bu
45 RootsAir : Just booked my flight GVA-AMS-LIM on Otober 3rd and LIM-AMS-GVA on October 25 th .... hopefully I will fly the 777 !!!!
46 Post contains images A300 American : This is indeed great news!! However, I believe that KLM is the only operator that brings the MD11 to Lima. When they change to the triple 7, no more M
47 Post contains images Anxebla : ...Over a daily service basis? Don't worry, I believe you And sometimes sources may not disclosed, specially if you work in this industry, the aviati
48 A388 : Wjen looking at the current developments surrounding KLM and Dutch Antilles Express it wouldn't surprise me if both airlines will move to CUR and join
49 Post contains links Hardiwv : Anxebla: Yes, there are flights LIM-GRU as follows: VARIG B757 LIM-GRU-GIG daily, C/Y. TACA A320 LIM-GRU daily, C/Y (in full codeshare with TAM) And:
50 GlobeTrekker : I don't know whu 9H doesn't move to CUR period. What is it that BON has that CUR cannot offer? I understand, that when DCA was still around they woul
51 A388 : You are absolutely right, that's why I think KL and 9H will both eventually move their operations and headquarters to CUR. A388
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