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Airbus A380-800R Ultra Long Haul Operations  
User currently offlineKeesje From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (8 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 21730 times:

Airbus hints the A380-800R might be launched in 2010-2011, before the A380-900.
http://www.aviationnow.com/shownews/05paris/aircraft12.htm

It should have a range of 18057km (9700nm) with a 53.000 kg payload. That would mean e.g. 420 passengers and 11.000 kg cargo.
http://www.civil-aviation.net/flugzeuge/a380.phtml

The destinations that could not be reached from e.g. Sydney would be limited.


I think the number of Aircraft required for ultra long haul will be limited. The baseline -800 can do 8000nm / 16 hours which is enough for more then 90% of all current long haul city pairs. However the R could do almost all current long haul flight without any payload restriction. That would be interesting for operators considering the proposed C7 and C11 convertible variants.

http://www.es.com/solutions/civil-a380.jpg

Will this R version for the 800 be what the B777-200ER was for the B777-200 and the 767-300ER for the 767-300?

87 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineMD90fan From Bahamas, joined Jul 2005, 2931 posts, RR: 7
Reply 1, posted (8 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 21646 times:

Good to see the "R" name bacl  wink  What long haul pairs need this kind of capacity AND range?


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User currently offlineGigneil From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 16345 posts, RR: 86
Reply 2, posted (8 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 21646 times:

Quoting Keesje (Thread starter):
Will this R version for the 800 be what the B777-200ER was for the B777-200 and the 767-300ER for the 767-300?

Haha yes, but to be more precise it is what the A300-600R is to the A300-600.

N


User currently offlineAtnight From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 605 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (8 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 21614 times:

Wow, interesting article... I'm surprised that Airbus says that SQ will exercise all of their options after the aircraft is introduced.... I guess SQ isn't thinking of sustaining the airline, but growing, which is what they should do.... One thing that pleases me, is to see that Airbus has plans for future versions, so that will make life more interesting in the future, especially for this huge bird...

Nevertheless, I still believe thought that before the version is offered, airlines would have to show strong interest in the variant and Airbus already having orders for the A380 around 250...

Of course, a version such as the one mentioned (A380-800R) would be an even more impressive airplane than the current giant of the skies, and would make a way for the long waited, more proportionate, A380-900....



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User currently offlineJoeCattoli From Italy, joined Aug 2005, 569 posts, RR: 3
Reply 4, posted (8 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 21614 times:

It would be nice to see... Actually an airplane with such a capacity could be developed not too hardly for Ultra-longhaul operations... Just limiting the maximum payload and Carrying special tanks in my opinion...
It would be really good news for qantas
Ciao
Joe


User currently offlineAtmx2000 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 4576 posts, RR: 38
Reply 5, posted (8 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 21542 times:

This article is from the Paris 2005 show. The article says only 154 orders are booked, as opposed to the 159 currently booked.

Has anything changed since then regarding the A380R? Given Airbus's long lead times for EIS of new models, shouldn't this already be launched for a 2010-2011 EIS?

It is a bit amusing they were talking about the evacuation test as something that they were going to do last summer.



ConcordeBoy is a twin supremacist!! He supports quadicide!!
User currently offlineLehpron From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 7028 posts, RR: 21
Reply 6, posted (8 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 21489 times:

Quoting Keesje (Thread starter):
It should have a range of 18057km (9700nm) with a 53.000 kg payload. That would mean e.g. 420 passengers and 11.000 kg cargo.

hehe, a supersized 777LR.



The meaning of life is curiosity; we were put on this planet to explore opportunities.
User currently offlineA388 From Netherlands Antilles, joined May 2001, 9564 posts, RR: 11
Reply 7, posted (8 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 21424 times:

Interesting thread. I was also thinking what a ultra long range A380 would be like. Interesting to see how this will develop  Smile

A388


User currently offlineMidnightMike From United States of America, joined Mar 2003, 2892 posts, RR: 15
Reply 8, posted (8 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 21293 times:

Quote:
One major forthcoming test is emergency evacuation, to be conducted this summer in the Hamburg paint hangar. Airbus is recruiting 1,100 volunteers — ‘passengers’, reserves and safety crews — for the test, which will involve 853 passengers: 538 on the main deck and 315 on the top deck. This will simulate a short-haul, high-density layout with no galleys and no reserve cabin crews to assist the evacuation: there will be 18 flight attendants and two flight crew. The test is conducted in the dark, using exits on only one side of the aircraft. Forty per cent of the passengers must be female, 35% over 50, and 15% must be female and over 50. The test can be run twice in five days, and the objective is to get everyone out within 90 seconds.

This is what I have been waiting for, should be very interesting to see how this test pans out.....



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User currently offlineOldAeroGuy From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 3423 posts, RR: 67
Reply 9, posted (8 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 21163 times:

Quoting Atmx2000 (Reply 5):
This article is from the Paris 2005 show. The article says only 154 orders are booked, as opposed to the 159 currently booked.

Two comments:

Is news about the A380 so scarce that current threads have to re-hash articles that are 8 months old?

Winter winds make the SYD - LHR ESAD about 10,000 nm. The map would look a lot different then.



Airplane design is easy, the difficulty is getting them to fly - Barnes Wallis
User currently offlineTrex8 From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 4493 posts, RR: 14
Reply 10, posted (8 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 21069 times:
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Quoting Atmx2000 (Reply 5):
Has anything changed since then regarding the A380R? Given Airbus's long lead times for EIS of new models, shouldn't this already be launched for a 2010-2011 EIS?

if its based on the strengthened A380F structure they may need less lead time


User currently offlineAerohottie From Australia, joined Mar 2004, 792 posts, RR: 3
Reply 11, posted (8 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 20825 times:

Quoting Keesje (Thread starter):
It should have a range of 18057km (9700nm) with a 53.000 kg payload. That would mean e.g. 420 passengers and 11.000 kg cargo.



Quoting Keesje (Thread starter):
The destinations that could not be reached from e.g. Sydney would be limited.

This aircraft could however operate AKL/LON direct year round with the outbound and return sectors flown in an easterly direction... kinda funny as SYD/LON is a shorter great circle distance, but still couldn't operate this flight...hehehe



What?
User currently offlineLTU932 From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 13864 posts, RR: 50
Reply 12, posted (8 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 20785 times:

Quoting Aerohottie (Reply 11):
This aircraft could however operate AKL/LON direct year round with the outbound and return sectors flown in an easterly direction... kinda funny as SYD/LON is a shorter great circle distance, but still couldn't operate this flight...hehehe

Indeed very funny. I do wonder though if there would be a market for an A380-800R, because the current C-Market for ULR aircraft is very limited as it is.


User currently offlineWhiteHatter From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (8 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 20524 times:

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 12):
Indeed very funny. I do wonder though if there would be a market for an A380-800R, because the current C-Market for ULR aircraft is very limited as it is.

This depends on a number of factors.

The A388R could be used by carriers as a higher MTOW and longer range version into routes which are borderline B/C routes, or used to properly develop C market routes with a bigger cargo payload than curent C market offerings can uplift.

It's all down to economics. Airbus are probably floating the idea to see if it has any traction with the carriers before going to a design and quote phase on the heavier and longer range variant. Expect to see quite a few proposed variants being discussed just as happened with the early 747 models, as airlines start to think about what to do with all that volume.

I am actually more interested in whether Airbus can offer an interesting combi version, as they could offer an aircraft with 747 passenger capacity plus the payload of a dedicated freighter aircraft in one runway movement.


User currently offlineLeelaw From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (8 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 20433 times:

Quoting Keesje (Thread starter):
Will this R version for the 800 be what the B777-200ER was for the B777-200 and the 767-300ER for the 767-300?

Perhaps. However, IIRC, the 772ER and 763ER were officially launched and already in the pipeline well before the rollout, maiden flights, and EIS of the standard versions of the 772 and the 763. By way of comparison the nascent A380-800R would already be rather late in the development cycle.

Quoting Atnight (Reply 3):
Nevertheless, I still believe thought that before the version is offered, airlines would have to show strong interest in the variant and Airbus already having orders for the A380 around 250...

It may well take the launch of the A380-800R to push overall sales of the A380 program to 250 units and beyond. If you apply Keesje's analogy/comparison to the 772ER and 763ER, it was the "ER" derivatives that were the sales successes, not the standard versions.

Quoting OldAeroGuy (Reply 9):
Is news about the A380 so scarce that current threads have to re-hash articles that are 8 months old?

Apparently, the dearth of current news hasn't given the cheerleaders much to shake their pom-poms over.

[Edited 2006-02-04 11:45:01]

User currently offlineCRJ900 From Norway, joined Jun 2004, 2152 posts, RR: 1
Reply 15, posted (8 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 19726 times:
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From that map it looks like the A388R cannot do Azores islands-SYD non-stop... well, then I'm soo NOT impressed! Airbus better come up with somehting more substantial...  Wink  Yeah sure


Come, fly the prevailing winds with me
User currently offlineN79969 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (8 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 19415 times:

That is an interesting article. I wish Airbus would provide more of it, more often.

Quoting Atmx2000 (Reply 5):
It is a bit amusing they were talking about the evacuation test as something that they were going to do last summer.

This threw me off as well. I thought that the date was a mistake....


User currently offlineA319114 From Netherlands, joined Aug 2004, 541 posts, RR: 3
Reply 17, posted (8 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 19198 times:

Quoting Leelaw (Reply 14):
However, IIRC, the 772ER and 763ER were officially launched and already in the pipeline well before the rollout, maiden flights, and EIS of the standard versions of the 772 and the 763. By way of comparison the nascent A380-800R would already be rather late in the development cycle.

The standard A380-800 already has quite an impressive range, opposed to the 772 and 763. You can compare this A380-800R situation to the 747-400, which by itself already has quite some range, but that was taken a step further with the 747-400ER, which flew 11 years after the standard -400.



Destruction leads to a very rough road but it also breeds creation
User currently offlineN79969 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (8 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 18912 times:

These two Airbus documents contain some updated information on the A380 and also Airbus in general:

http://www-org.airbus.com/store/mm_r..._object_file_ANNUALREVIEW2006E.pdf

http://www-org.airbus.com/store/mm_r...ect_file_AirbusLetterJANUARY-E.pdf

In the annual report (for the press), they make no mention whatsoever that the A380's 6-month delay. That is a strange ommission and it is material information. I would have expected not only a reference but also an explanation of the problem, the cause, and how they solved it.


User currently offlineLeelaw From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (8 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 18744 times:

Quoting A319114 (Reply 17):
The standard A380-800 already has quite an impressive range

My understanding is that the payload capability of the standard A380 decreases significantly as the mission stage lengths approach the maximum range of 8000nm on certain routes because of wind conditions, etc. The A388R would probably make a lot of sense to boost payload on the longer Trans-Pacific routes like HKG-LAX/SFO and MEL/SYD-LAX.


User currently offlineMohamed1 From Egypt, joined Feb 2006, 26 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (8 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 17738 times:

Quoting Leelaw (Reply 19):

My understanding is that the payload capability of the standard A380 decreases significantly as the mission stage lengths approach the maximum range of 8000nm on certain routes because of wind conditions, etc. The A388R would probably make a lot of sense to boost payload on the longer Trans-Pacific routes like HKG-LAX/SFO and MEL/SYD-LAX.

That seems fair enough.
I wonder however if the A380-700R could do something like this better !it would ever an extra peace of range for the famous LHR-SYD and would carry more payload , with hgih dense A387F possibilty. The A380 as an ultarranger would be quit good itself as it would lower CASM of these long flights clearley compared to other aircrafts and frequency isn't that important on an 200+hour flight.
The A380 could also add a nice peace of added comfort , For example enhanced EConomy with 9 abreast (as wide as premium economy today) and a decent pitch, Upper Deck Bis and F only and a small bar or lounge to beat the time with nothing more. (Like SQ on the A345).


User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 29672 posts, RR: 84
Reply 21, posted (8 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 17699 times:
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Boeing found little interest in their ULR 747-500 when the shopped it about a decade ago. And while I am sure Boeing would prefer not to canabalize sales of the 777-200LR model, a 747-8LR would have the ability to carry at least 300 folks between any two points on the planet - pole to pole or IDL to Prime Meridian.

So other then QF, and maybe EK, would there be a big demand for an A388R model? Of course, like the 772LR, it won't cost Airbus much to make it, so even if QF and EK are the only ones, if they want a dozen to a score each, it's probably worth the effort (since it would hurt sales of both the 748 and the 772LR).


User currently offlineGlideslope From United States of America, joined May 2004, 1593 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (8 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 17570 times:

They are going to need some special cargo for an operator to make money with only 420 PAX. 550-600 PAX would have a chance.  Smile


To know your Enemy, you must become your Enemy.” Sun Tzu
User currently offlineGigneil From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 16345 posts, RR: 86
Reply 23, posted (8 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 17517 times:

Quoting Mohamed1 (Reply 20):
I wonder however if the A380-700R could do something like this better !it would ever an extra peace of range for the famous LHR-SYD and would carry more payload , with hgih dense A387F possibilty.

Like we saw with the A340-200 and the 747SP, larger planes with more range are much preferable to smaller ones.

An A387 would have astronomical CASM. An A388R would have less so.

N


User currently offlineAtmx2000 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 4576 posts, RR: 38
Reply 24, posted (8 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 16688 times:

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 24):
Like we saw with the A340-200 and the 747SP, larger planes with more range are much preferable to smaller ones.

Except, planes the same size as the A340-200 or smaller with greater range are selling well now.

Quote:
An A387 would have astronomical CASM. An A388R would have less so.

Which is because the A380 is a platform that won't shrink easily to A387 size enough of a weight reductions because the platform was designed for a stretch, plus the A380 manufacturing infrastructure is built to produce a small number of planes per year, so fixed costs are spread over a smaller number of aircraft which will make it harder to lower the A387's price enough.



ConcordeBoy is a twin supremacist!! He supports quadicide!!
25 Post contains images USADreamliner : NOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!! I was hoping for a Sydney-Azores nonstop flight...damn. USADreamliner
26 WAH64D : Current industry opinion is that the oil price is about as high as its going to get. We are looking at a big drop in prices throughout the next 4-24 m
27 Mohamed1 : why is it falling ? who said this ? The only thing i can think off is because of winter calling down and nothing more.
28 A342 : A very intersting development that I was waiting for ! Judging by the link provided by Kessje, it has about the same MTOW as the A388F. They could go
29 Stitch : Well the speculators are the ones who have been pushing it real high, but the producers (like OPEC) have to worry that if prices stay too high, it enc
30 Mohamed1 : What , tell me that isn't true. Will those alternate fuels be avaialable in a few weeks or what ? They need time !And ramping up supply isn't easy too
31 Stitch : Of course not, but when oil was "cheap", nobody cared about conservation or alternative energy. While hybirds now are mostly being bought as a "polit
32 A319XFW : And where would you want to fit another main gear - the existing space allocation for the gears is tight enough as it is. A potential A388R would hav
33 Post contains images LPLAspotter : RATS! I guess us Azoreans will not be getting any non-stop flights to SYD! I was sure there was a market for it   LPLAspotter[Edited 2006-02-04 21:41
34 Atmx2000 : Well, I don't know why you were waiting for it, as the article is from last summer's Paris 2005 Air Show. The question still remains has there been a
35 LTU932 : I guess you're right. Let's see what will happen with the A388R and what exactly A wants to offer. We have to remember that the FAA is very strict wh
36 Airbazar : What a load of crap. The only people who may agree with you are the Oil industry and the American automotive industry. China's and India's ever incre
37 A342 : Maybe not a "full" one, I was thinking about one with 2 wheels, à la A342/343. Uh, maybe I didn´t know about it until now ?
38 Smokeyrosco : I was under the impression that with what's going one in Iran at the moment that oil is slightly below a short term high (short term being the last 2
39 WAH64D : I'll quote you on this one next month. OPEC are a cartel and nothing more. In any other business, they'd have been shut down by force. OPEC are not t
40 N79969 : Nicely stated. I though about responding to Airbazar's comment which took a partial quote, distorted the contents, and insulted the messenger. But yo
41 Atmx2000 : For that to the would also have to return to the level that it was in the late 90s and early 00s. The strong dollar hid an increase in the value of o
42 WAH64D : I agree with you 100%. A lower oil price would benefit A380 and also the B748. Some people just can't get it through their heads that you can only se
43 BoomBoom : I thought the A380 was the antidote for high oil prices. Now it appears not to be the case.
44 A319XFW : That won't happen - as far as I understand, the landing gear for the A388F would also be used for a possible A389, which would have a higher MTOw and
45 N79969 : I am not sure how that idea got started although Keesje likes to make that argument repeatedly even though people have explained the fallacy multiple
46 Atmx2000 : Of course, airlines could try and load up passengers and carry them on shorter hub to hub routes that do have significant demand and decrease emphasi
47 Ikramerica : So to do 10000nm, it would have what, 380 seats? 380/550 = 70%. 70% of 300 seats on a 772LR is 210. QF seems to want at least 250 seats on that jet to
48 Stoney : Even though I think this is the wrong thread for such a discussion: Actually the price of Gasoline even declined with the time. Back in the early 80i
49 Antares : Ikramerica, I spoke to one of my media contacts yesterday about the -200LR and he said Lars Andersen said in a progress briefing this week that it wou
50 MarshalN : Other than Saudi which can pump out maybe another 1 million bpd, nobody else has any useful excess capacity to pump more. Dream on.
51 VirginFlyer : Could we please keep this on the topic of the A380, and not get too sidetracked into the wider oil industry - I've left the oil posts above, but let's
52 WAH64D : This is actually very common. Its called re-clearance in flight. The flight is planned to a destination short of the intended one with the intended d
53 A319XFW : But surely in this case you would have to sell tickets to FRA and not to LHR? As the original flight-plan would have been to FRA. You can't just say
54 Post contains links and images Keesje : Champion indicates work will start after the A380-800F an let the market decide wath comes first, -900 or -800R An A380-800R at maximum take-off weigh
55 Trex8 : it seems the C7 and C11 will have passengers and cargo on the same deck. while this may be more versatile in terms of changing configurations, won't i
56 Atmx2000 : What is max payload for an A388R used for this calculation? I would think it would be increased from the current weight, if anyone plans on using it
57 OldAeroGuy : No, the tickets would still say LHR. The only time you'd be landing in FRA would be when the winds were significantly stronger than forecast or there
58 Atmx2000 : That should be 609tons.
59 BestWestern : Can someone explain this to me please?
60 Stitch : Summing up WAH64D and OldAeroGuy, QF would buy the 772LR and institute scheduled SYD-LHR non-stop service at a passenger and cargo capacity they deem
61 N79969 : I think simplest way of understanding redispatch is that the airplane is first dispatched using conservative assumptions to a point before the destin
62 Ikramerica : I highly doubt those claimed temperature increases, no matter who is making the doomsday claims. Climate change by 5C in a short amount of time is jus
63 N79969 : I realize that we are off topic...but I think the current back-and-forth between Boeing and Qantas is pretty interesting. Qantas is pushing Boeing and
64 WAH64D : As explained in subsequent posts. The actual destination on the airport departure displays has no bearing on what the flightplan says. The aircraft l
65 Post contains images Atmx2000 : No, because the flight is not to FRA and no can get on or off at FRA if it were to land there (barring an emergency). If you are one of those souls w
66 Trex8 : Pan Am did something similar with the 747SPflights to Tokyo from New York, they were routed to somewhere else (I can't remember where ? Anchorage) )
67 Antares : Ikramerica, I wish climate change was bogus. But the climate is always changing for natural reasons, and now it seems, unnatural ones as well. As well
68 Post contains images Glareskin : I agree with your view. In fact, Airbus did develop the ULR with it's largest jet. The A380 is a new future option as it will become the largest in t
69 Atmx2000 : I am sceptical. Unless there is a significant cost reduction from better utilization of labor and landing rights there is likely to be a premium for
70 Post contains images Astuteman : I strongly suspect that the engines which will be proposed for the A30-800R (and the A389 IMO) will be substantially more efficient than the T900's c
71 Leelaw : The early models of the 747 entered service relatively quickly: 741 (1970), 742 (1971), 742F (1972) and this helped to boost sales momentum. It's a li
72 A342 : The A388F has a MTOW of 590 t. And from what I´ve read, it has a stronger landing gear than the pax variant, tough not more gears. The question is:
73 N79969 : Judging by Airbus latest communication strategy, I think you could be correct. But I think they have made the announcement as a 'spoiler' to simply s
74 Astuteman : I think you'll find that 590t has quietly grown to 600t over the last year or so............. Either way, the design of the gear is well capable of h
75 Revelation : How willing are the engine manufacturers going to be to keep investing in this area? Right now we see ~159 orders split between two manufacturers. Wo
76 A342 : From where should I find this ? I agree on the fact that Airbus hasn´t shown the MTOW increase of the pax variant on its website. But does this mean
77 Atmx2000 : Well, it as good as twice as many twin orders. And the engines were derivatives of 777 offerings. Each offering will sell something between 300 to 45
78 Post contains links and images Keesje : Airbus is confident to sell to A380 to JAL and ANA. In two years 10 operators will fly A380´s into Japan. They expects at least 1 new A380 customer i
79 Post contains images Jacobin777 : well..the same can't be said of JL and NH...as they seem to be streamlining their operations.. also, according to the A380 paradigm, the plane is use
80 N79969 : If you read the article, it sounds like Leahy's remarks that it was inevitable that BA would operate vast fleets of A380s rather than an actual predi
81 Post contains images Sllevin : Here's the question: How does the cost of an A380 with 420 passengers stack up against a 777LR with 200? If it can get the cost down significantly, th
82 Astuteman : Don't know the answer to that, but here's a few thoughts. As Atmx2000 pointed out, the declared capability is unlikely to happen without substantial
83 OldAeroGuy : Really? At best, I think RR is lukewarm to the A345E/6E.
84 Post contains links and images Keesje : GE, RR and CFM have in the past constantly upgraded their engines. Introducing new/improved materials, technology, fans, compressors, basicly everythi
85 Stitch : Does anyone know (or have a reasonable guess) on how much bleed-air one can get from the bleeded-GENx and T1700 and if it would be enough to power al
86 Astuteman : They may be, they may be not, but they are definitely interested in a "T1500" type engine. The engine already has an internal RR designation and a (s
87 OldAeroGuy : The market will decide. Another interesting item to watch.
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