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Future Of BD/BMI  
User currently offlineMD90fan From Bahamas, joined Jul 2005, 2931 posts, RR: 7
Posted (8 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 4388 times:

What does the future hold for BMI? Where will they expand(with ERJ's again?)? I've been hearing bad things lately about them and how they've been slashing some routes(LHR-MAD and LIN). And they moved jobs to India lol. Well they hang on? Or ever get more LHR slots? Anything appreciated  Smile


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70 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offline7LBAC111 From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2004, 2566 posts, RR: 35
Reply 1, posted (8 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 4367 times:

There are few options left for BMI. They have lost direction entirely. They are mixing the LCC model with their mainline operation, and seriously p*ssing of the most important commodity - the high yield business passenger.

Rumours consistently circulate about a VS takeover, but this can never happen while SMB is at the helm. However, IMHO, BMI are destined to failure unless this takeover is allowed to happen.

7L



Debate is what you put on de hook when you want to catch de fish.
User currently offlineOzvirginuk From Australia, joined Jan 2005, 396 posts, RR: 5
Reply 2, posted (8 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 4335 times:

Quoting 7LBAC111 (Reply 1):
Rumours consistently circulate about a VS takeover, but this can never happen while SMB is at the helm. However, IMHO, BMI are destined to failure unless this takeover is allowed to happen.

I agree that with SMB in the driver's seat, that this is unlikely to happen. However, it would be great for VS to be able to boast a domestic and European network. This would improve pax numbers on our international network, with through fares available from alot more destinations.

BD could also use help with service improvements, and the "Virgin Touch" maybe just what they need.

Oz


User currently offline7LBAC111 From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2004, 2566 posts, RR: 35
Reply 3, posted (8 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 4329 times:

Quoting Ozvirginuk (Reply 2):

How profitable are VS at the moment. Do you think that VS could sustain the loss making BD network in the short term?

7L



Debate is what you put on de hook when you want to catch de fish.
User currently offlineOzvirginuk From Australia, joined Jan 2005, 396 posts, RR: 5
Reply 4, posted (8 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 4295 times:

Quoting 7LBAC111 (Reply 3):
How profitable are VS at the moment. Do you think that VS could sustain the loss making BD network in the short term?

VS are reasonably profitable, in that we have turned a profit consistently for a number of years now. There aren't alot of major international carriers doing that these days.

I think some quick fire, drastic measures would need to be implemented to make sure it was a success. This would need to start with looking at the network, and ensuring that the destination mix was appropriate for connecting with onward international flights. Also, the onboard product would need looking at straight away, and be in line with the VS mainline product. ie free meals, and IFE on Euro flights etc.

Who really knows whether this is going to happen??? My colleagues and I often discuss it, but we are not decision makers, so we'll just have to wait and see..

Oz


User currently offlineOrion737 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (8 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 4273 times:

It saddens me to see the state of BD today but they have only themselves to blame. Only a few years ago, BD were doing well, increasing frequencies and developing new scheduled routes which were mainly aimed at business travellers and high end leisure travellers. Their on board service was a key selling point for them and they had a loyal customer base.

Gradually they started to diversify. Long haul became almost an obsession and then they moved into the no-frills sector with creation of BMIbaby. This took their 'eye off the ball' and pursuing the long haul ambitions and trying to increase share of the no-frills market allowed them to neglect their 'bread and butter' business passengers.

BMI then lost the plot completley, reducing frequencies, cutting service levels from 'full frills' to 'no frills' and lost all consistency across the brand.

They were so focused on the long haul, that they have neglected and ailienated their short haul passenger base, which is and always has been the majority of BDs business.


User currently offlineJmc757 From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2000, 1298 posts, RR: 7
Reply 6, posted (8 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 4240 times:

I can see baby and bmi parting ways in the future. Baby already have their own AOC. I imagine they will be sold off to either a competitor to be merged (similar to easy/Go) or to other investors and carry on operating as baby. (Does anyone know how succesful/not baby is on its own?)

User currently offlineEgmcman From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2005, 898 posts, RR: 8
Reply 7, posted (8 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 4195 times:

Quoting 7LBAC111 (Reply 3):
Do you think that VS could sustain the loss making BD network in the short term?

Good question

Quoting Ozvirginuk (Reply 4):
Also, the onboard product would need looking at straight away, and be in line with the VS mainline product. ie free meals, and IFE on Euro flights etc.

Is there a demand for this type of service on short haul routes? and could be done at a low cost to be competative?

What did VS offer on it's services LGW & LHR - ATH using the Airbus A321?


User currently offlineBDKLEZ From Ireland, joined Jun 2005, 1735 posts, RR: 10
Reply 8, posted (8 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 4187 times:

Quoting Egmcman (Reply 7):
What did VS offer on it's services LGW & LHR - ATH using the Airbus A321?

Did VS not actually use the A340 on the ATH...???  scratchchin 



Trespassers will be shot; survivors will be shot again!
User currently offlineConcorde001 From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2005, 1230 posts, RR: 3
Reply 9, posted (8 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 4161 times:

Quoting BDKLEZ (Reply 8):
Did VS not actually use the A340 on the ATH...???

It was an A321 for ATH.


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User currently offlineDoor5Right From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2005, 707 posts, RR: 16
Reply 10, posted (8 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 4123 times:

Virgin launched the Gatwick to Athens route in 1993.

It was a franchised operation using a leased A320-200 G-OUZO "Spirit of Melina" in partnership with a private Greek airline, South East European Airlines.

It had Business and Economy and, unusually for the time, there were "Stand By" fares available at Gatwick on a daily basis. I had the pleasure of being upgraded to Business en-route to Athens to join a cruise ship. The Greek crew, in the Virgin trade mark red uniforms, were excellent. The seating was 2 abreast in Business (unlike Ba's 2-3) and there were individual video Walkmans for pasengers and a library of movies to select from. I remember the food as being excellent and the champagne flowed all the way to Athens!

This aircraft, refitted, is now G-JOEM of My Travel



My soul is in the sky...
User currently offlineSevenforeseven From France, joined Nov 2005, 164 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (8 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 4054 times:

The sooner VS take over BMI the better. BMI are destined for the scrap heap. The only thing M. Bishop got going for him is the LHR slots. M. Bishop is no spring chicken now (he is getting old). He should sell to VS and maybe take a position on the VS board of directors. VS need shorthaul to compete with the old unionised dinosaur BA. This is the only airline that cabin attendants take home more pay than fight crew.

User currently offlineVSGirl From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (8 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 4032 times:

I am not quite sure that Virgin Atlantic taking over British Midland will ever happen and I am not sure it would make sense.

Virgin Atlantic has always found its major successes on long haul services (I am talking about the UK based airline, not Virgin Blue etc). If we did merge or take over BMi so many changes would have to be made I think it would be too risky and right now I am not sure if there is a yield for such changes to be made.

Being honest in the past when I have ever asked senior management / executive management about taking over or merging with BMi they just either laugh or say “not in this life time”.

For the record I would like to see Virgin in the European market, but, I don’t want to work for ‘another’ British Airways

Kimberly.


User currently offlineWrighbrothers From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2005, 1875 posts, RR: 9
Reply 13, posted (8 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 4032 times:

Quoting Concorde001 (Reply 9):
Quoting BDKLEZ (Reply 8):
Did VS not actually use the A340 on the ATH...???

It was an A321 for ATH.

Didn't VS also have Virgin Sun ?, I think they sold it off in the end.

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Wrighbrothers



Always stand up for what is right, even if it means standing alone..
User currently offlineBmiexpat From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2005, 175 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (8 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 4015 times:

Quoting VSGirl (Reply 12):
I am not quite sure that Virgin Atlantic taking over British Midland will ever happen and I am not sure it would make sense.

What you are forgetting is that if Virgin take over/merge with bmi then Virgin would get their hands on all those lovely slots at LHR to launch new long haul services..... that makes a great deal of sense.

Also considering VS codeshare on a lot of bmi European and domestic services, if the two airlines became one, I'm sure the bmi route network would become even more valuable to VS as a feeder network.

I see a bmi/VS combined airline as a very sensible proposition.


User currently offlineManchesterMAN From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2003, 1216 posts, RR: 1
Reply 15, posted (8 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 4011 times:

Quoting Sevenforeseven (Reply 11):
The only thing M. Bishop got going for him is the LHR slots.

... Which is what makes bmi a very valuable airline. If the airline is ever in a position to be sold it won't just be VS interested. For a start don't LH have first option to buy the remaining 50%+1 shares? If the EU and US can sort out their open skies with the cavet of opening up LHR it would be worth any airline buying up bmi just for the slots which would be even more valuable.



Flown: A300,A319,A320,A321,A330,A340.A380,717,727,737,747,757,767,777,DC9,DC10,MD11,MD80,F100,F50,ERJ,E190,CRJ,BAe146,Da
User currently offlineBDKLEZ From Ireland, joined Jun 2005, 1735 posts, RR: 10
Reply 16, posted (8 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 3996 times:

Quoting Bmiexpat (Reply 14):
I see a bmi/VS combined airline as a very sensible proposition

It always has been. The problem is that while SMB is still in the chair, that is most unlikely to happen. The old man is never going to sell to Branson. However, if has hand could be forced, then maybe things would be different.

BD have been now left out of the original threesome that were BD,LH & SK who made up a grouping called the European Joint Venture whereby the profits and losses of those three carriers would be spread accross all three whereby limiting the effect on one individual carrier. However, BD's losses and poor management direction have meant that BD have now been left out of a renewed agreement. LH & SK have gone it alone.

Also, it's no secret that both LH & SK want to get rid of their respective stakes in BD, and particularly in terms of the BD/LH agreement, that stake may be particularly difficult to dispose of because of certain clauses in the agreement which dictate that LH may be required to purchase the company in the event that Bishop sells. So some clever number-crunching may indeed by required in order for this to happen.

A BD/VS alliance/merger/take-over/whatever should have happened years ago, but again that didn't happen and again that was (IMHO) singly due to SMB's stubborness.

In those days, VS would have been happy to run with the BD brand etc in the event of a merger, however the way things are these days and if Dickie ever gets his hands on it, I personally can see a Virgin Europe rising out of the ashes of BD, with the BD product never to be seen again.

As an ex BD-er of many years service with the company, I'm sad at the prospect of doom that BD now faces. I hope that SMB sees sense before too long and doesn't commit the company to the grave before it should be. The situation can be saved, but time is running out....

Good luck to all my ex colleagues.....

 frown   worried   fever   crossfingers 



Trespassers will be shot; survivors will be shot again!
User currently offlineEgmcman From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2005, 898 posts, RR: 8
Reply 17, posted (8 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 3953 times:

Quoting Wrighbrothers (Reply 13):
Didn't VS also have Virgin Sun ?, I think they sold it off in the end.

They sold to it to First Choice in 2001.


User currently offlineScotron11 From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2004, 1178 posts, RR: 3
Reply 18, posted (8 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 3946 times:

Quoting Bmiexpat (Reply 14):

I see a bmi/VS combined airline as a very sensible proposition.

Can someone tell me where VS will get the money from?

Quoting BDKLEZ (Reply 16):

Also, it's no secret that both LH & SK want to get rid of their respective stakes in BD, and particularly in terms of the BD/LH agreement, that stake may be particularly difficult to dispose of because of certain clauses in the agreement which dictate that LH may be required to purchase the company in the event that Bishop sells. So some clever number-crunching may indeed by required in order for this to happen.

Most recently, SAS was bemoaning the burden of their BD stake, and the losses they have to bear. But, so far, LH & SK have'nt had any takers.

ONTH, if this so-called "open-skies" deal happens with the US/EU, then it could be a very different ball game, and an interesting one at that!


User currently offlineSNBru From Belgium, joined Feb 2005, 168 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (8 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 3886 times:

Quoting BDKLEZ (Reply 16):
I personally can see a Virgin Europe rising out of the ashes of BD, with the BD product never to be seen again

Now that TV has been sold to SN, the Virgin Express name may become available very soon.


User currently offlineDjmatthews From United Kingdom, joined Dec 1999, 213 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (8 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 3842 times:

Rather than a full blown BD/VS merger, the Virgin Company should buy BD, but run it as a separate business. All Virgin companies are run independently; therefore if one arm of the business fails e.g. Mobile Phones, it doesn't bring down the rest of the business e.g. Virgin Atlantic.

Now, Virgin Atlantic and Virgin Europe/Connect/Midland could then effectively create a mini alliance and share lounges, FFP, handling etc. The new airlines could work together feeding the long haul flights from smaller airports, as well as serving existing destinations.

However, for this to be financially successful the ‘new’ Virgin airline would need a low cost base, and a clear identity of its own. The airline would probably have to asset strip, and rebuild the ‘new’ airline practically from scratch, but with the added benefit of a lot of slots.


User currently offlineBestWestern From Hong Kong, joined Sep 2000, 7079 posts, RR: 57
Reply 21, posted (8 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 3810 times:

Quoting Djmatthews (Reply 20):
However, for this to be financially successful the ‘new’ Virgin airline would need a low cost base, and a clear identity of its own

To do this, VS would have to buy BD, and close the entire BD headoffice and support operation, in a similar manner to what EZY did to the GO operation. What you then get is more passengers, but only one head office cost.

And thats another reason why WW and BD should be merged. Why on earth do they have two fixed cost bases when they can be merged into one, and benefit from a single operation. Some are already saying that the service level on both carriers are similar these days.



The world is really getting smaller these days
User currently offlineFlyCaledonian From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2003, 2071 posts, RR: 3
Reply 22, posted (8 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 3642 times:

Endless speculation but it is really all in the hands of Sir Michael Bishop. Maybe he'll be happy to sell-up once Open Skies happens, as BD will become much more attractive. Or he might simply decide to go it alone, and try and take on BA, VS, etc. Even if a VS takeover took place, can't see VS being interested in either bmi regional or bmi baby. They wouldn't fit the core business of supporting VS at LHR. Even feeding VS at MAN wouldn't be attractive because VS at MAN is like at LGW - O&D leisure routes supporting Virgin Holidays. That is maybe one way VS could get in - take BD at LHR, with LH and SK being stakeholders in an enlarged VS along with SQ, and leave Sir Michael Bishop with baby and regional. But of course, it's all down to Sir Michael.


Let's Go British Caledonian!
User currently offlineGalleyhag From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2006, 37 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (8 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 3565 times:

Regarding 'bmibaby being a profitable airline and self sustaining'....

bmibaby is a fantastically strong airline on it's own and has been absorbing bmi mainline's losses for a while now. Since the introduction of the new no frills on our short haul we've started making money again (so we are told) albeit slowly. So baby breaking off on it's own wouldn't surprise me, although in the summer they would be stuck for last minute crews when it ops on an A320 instead of a B737! There is a HUGE amount of uncertainty amongst all bd staff and there has been for a long while. There's no clear direction at all and we can't see where we are headed. The VS take over is a hot topic and some are for it, some are against it. Me? I can see it coming. With over 20% of the slots at LHR we're a nice little package.


User currently offlineConcorde001 From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2005, 1230 posts, RR: 3
Reply 24, posted (8 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 3472 times:

Quoting Galleyhag (Reply 23):
With over 20% of the slots at LHR we're a nice little package.

BMI only "hold 12% of all take off and landing slots at London Heathrow*

*Source: http://www.flybmi.com/bmi/en-gb/aboutbmi/aboutbmi.aspx

Out of interest, does anybody know whether BMI gave some of their slots to SK and/or LH when they bought shares in the company?


25 Cornish : It would be slash and burn as soon as they could. If it was ever to happen, EVERYTHING that was non-LHR would go - sold off to anyone who wants it. A
26 Billy : BD are not really interested in operating serices to the US anymore. They are looking east and south.
27 StarGoldLHR : I agree BD LHR operation will probably be sold to VS. The A320's series will probably service VS at LHR with European Flights, the A330's will dissape
28 BDKLEZ : Indeed, totally agree. In fact, if I'm going to be totally honest, they are the only draw that BD has held for quite a few years now. This is the who
29 Rdwootty : Interestlingly Virgin Holidays are actively selling BD MAN flights to both Vegas and Carib with allocations on both and ,I suspect filling the planes
30 Humberside : The bit that stands out to me is south. Could we see BD in Africa soon?
31 BDKLEZ : Not necessarily. easyCruise also sell VS flights via their (easyCruise) own website; commercial advertising, that's all it is.
32 Rdwootty : Replying to BDKLEZ The difference is that easycruise does not have an allocation and the clients book themselves direct with VS . Virgin Holidays has
33 7LBAC111 : Actually, this is quite irrelevant. As has been said before, all Virgin companies are run separately. Therefore, I would think that Virgin Holidays h
34 BDKLEZ : Perhaps, but most airlines will have many Corporate/IT etc agreements with various oranisations who have been given an allocation. Just becuase we're
35 Cornish : Doubt it - they were close to MAN-JNB for 2005 but pulled it in order to focus on LHR services (although the reason they gave was not getting agreeme
36 Billy : The US used to be a BMI priority. This is no longer the case. Without going into details, south and east is the priority. Bilateral agreements can be
37 Cornish : Maybe so - but there are some huge barriers regarding South Africa - ex-LHR. Big enough barriers to see no changes in the immediate future. BD may ha
38 WhiteHatter : Usual half-truths and VS speculation gets trotted out here regularly. Bottom line is, Virgin cannot afford BD. The Heathrow slots alone are worth up t
39 PurpleBox : Does anybody know why BD didn't lease another A332 instead of the B763? Purplebox.
40 WhiteHatter : which A332? There are practically none available, and the only ones which are available are currently the subject of competing bids from prospective
41 PurpleBox : OK - but what does ACMI stand for? Thanks. Purplebox.
42 Skymonster : WRT the US, the only good thing the possible EU-US bilatteral will do for BD is potentially increase the value of their LHR slot assets (and thus the
43 Skymonster : Huh? Aircraft, Crew, Maintenance and Insurance... In fact, the same as a wet-lease! FWIW, the 767 is on what is often referred to as a damp lease - D
44 ZSOFN : A7-AEA is an A333 which obviously means they're hoping for larger loads...
45 Humberside : I think its the Rrussian Government
46 Billy : Humberside, The UK government has asked airlines if they object to the CX fifth freedom rights (SVO-MAN). Only one UK airline objected.
47 Humberside : I was just going of the information in Manchester News 2 thread which seemed to indicate the problems where to do with the Russian authorities. I take
48 Mhodgson : I'd imagine BA, as they are the only UK airline operating to Moscow. I could be wrong though, seeeing as CX and BA are both One World carriers.
49 Post contains images 7LBAC111 : Manchester News 2 is quite possibly the least reliable source on this website, (with respect to many of the posters in that thread), it is full of su
50 Billy : I know that BA did not object, and neither did Virgin.
51 BestWestern : More BMI cuts Note: BD195/196 LHR-NCE-LHR has been cancelled for the entire summer 2006 season. The LHR-MAD-LHR BD481/482 route will be cancelled from
52 7LBAC111 : Christ. They really don't have a clue at Donnington Hall, do they. 7L
53 BestWestern : Looks like Linate has survived the winter cut, even though they had already taken it off sale for the summer. Madrid is gone - no surprise there. As f
54 BDKLEZ : This really does appear to be a move by an organisatiuon which is seriously clutching at straws. LHR-DUB/GLA/EDI/BRU. Key bread-and-butter commuter ro
55 BDKLEZ : This really does appear to be a move by an organisatiuon which is seriously clutching at straws. LHR-DUB/GLA/EDI/BRU. Key bread-and-butter commuter ro
56 Pe@rson : Mr. B.W. What would you do, if you were its CEO, to turn things around? James.
57 BestWestern : Sell Baby to Channel Express Sell Heathrow operations to Virgin Sell Regional to flybe Focus on Manc, Toonland and Brum using 20 A319's in both Long
58 Pe@rson : I fully realise that BD's fares on some (all?) of its short-haul routes from LHR - like one you rarely fly aboard, namely to DUB - are sometimes (alwa
59 Post contains images Pe@rson : In comparison to LHR, MAN gets some truly fab fares - well, for them, if not you - like a 'promotional' offer of £70+, tax exclusive, one-way to EDI.
60 Mhodgson : I'd have thought it impossible not to make money on NCE in summer - but BD prove me wrong, again!
61 Post contains images Pe@rson : I'm loving some of BA Connect's fares from MAN too. Again, great for the airline (if people will pay it), but bad for the consumer. OK, so I need to f
62 BestWestern : Bmi have a mini monopoly in Manchester, and have smaller aircraft - this leads to stronger yields. But watch BA change this market. Heathrow struggles
63 Mhodgson : Pe@rson - you of all people should know how yield management works! Less than a fortnight to go, on an important business route operated by an ERJ/DH8
64 Post contains images Pe@rson : I understand it. Yes. I was just commenting how great it can be. The cheapest return fare with BA Connect is just under £50 for MAN-EDI-MAN. Of that
65 A340600 : From what i've seen and read through reports it's going downhill as fast as the airline itself. You can even buy the box you're given in Y! With no m
66 7LBAC111 : Yup - we book a lot of them. Many are Nortel people on the Vodafone project. And they shouldn't be in Business Class either - policy is Economy. Grr.
67 Mhodgson : Surely if you book them in Y they should be in Y? And again, that won't help BD as by the sounds of it Y pax are getting a J service.
68 7LBAC111 : What this suggests is that there are elements not complying with policy, and are booking elsewhere. A quick email to Travel Management and the BMI ac
69 Zvezda : You have it right VSGirl. Mergers very rarely produce good results. The only reason another airline would, IMO, buy BD is for the LHR slots. Once the
70 Humberside : Why. I cant see MAN-SVO-HKG having much impact on their operations. Would it be just objecting for the sake of it? If they just added an extra daily
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