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Northwest and its bankruptcy laws and can Bush aid them?  
User currently offlineNwafflyer From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 1050 posts, RR: 2
Posted (8 years 10 months 4 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 4333 times:

OK, so NWA has 'stiffed' Arizona hotels (and lots more than that due to bankruptcy laws).

My opinion here, I don't think they are going to go under, I have flights booked on NWA through early March --

I don't think Bush will rescue them, but I do think an agreement will be reached -

I'd like other thoughts on this, not NWA poison pills, just honest thoughts

41 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineAirlineAV8tr From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 191 posts, RR: 4
Reply 1, posted (8 years 10 months 4 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 4296 times:

You are right in the assumption that Bush will not save NWA. For some reason, the only airline they see fit to keep on life support is UAL. My uncle flies as an FO on the A330, and his outlook for NWA is dim. In his words, "they're past the point of recovery, and it all began when they started picking the employees pockets instead of their own." Had as much money been poured into NWA instead of UAL it would be a different story. It's a case of history repeating. When an airline turns on its employees, they might as well close its doors. It's reflective in performance reports already. NWA has the lowest on-time rating, and the lowest customer satisfaction rating. Both directly due to employee morale. While they are a historic US Major, they made the mistake of butting heads with employees. Similar to EAL, NAL, PanAm, etc.


If we went into the funeral business, people would stop dying.-Martin S. (PanAm CEO)
User currently offlineNwafflyer From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 1050 posts, RR: 2
Reply 2, posted (8 years 10 months 4 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 4278 times:

Depressing statement there, and I know the employees are down and out - I fly with them, and check in with them, and am boarded by them, several times a week -- I do with Andersen were back, Steenland doesn't even write a column in the NWA magazine any longer

User currently offlineIndy From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 4596 posts, RR: 18
Reply 3, posted (8 years 10 months 4 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 4272 times:

I wonder why the judge won't appoint an independent arbitrator to handle the dispute between the pilots and NW? Or does the judge in this case qualify as an arbitrator? Perhaps an independent auditor to review the proposals by both the company and the pilots. This will give a chance for each side to see how honest the other side's proposal is. This could also help the judge in making a decision on tossing out the contract. Perhaps the judge is less likely to toss out the contract if he discovers the company is fudging on their claims. If I were the pilots union and NW wanted deep cuts then in exchange I would want a significant interest in the NW company as well as the right to place a member of the board of directors. Knowing I had an interest in the company and a voice at the top I would be more likely to accept the cut. ATA pilots were about to go on strike but a stock deal seemed to save the company as well. But I also think ATA management at least bargained in good faith.


Indy = Indianapolis and not Independence Air
User currently offlineMariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25710 posts, RR: 85
Reply 4, posted (8 years 10 months 4 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 4233 times:
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Quoting AirlineAV8tr (Reply 1):
Had as much money been poured into NWA instead of UAL it would be a different story.

What money has the governement - or anyone - "poured" into United?

The ATSB turned United down twice. The only money United got privately was from banks - DIP financing.

DIP financing was a course NWA could have taken but they chose not to do so.

United's exit financing is all mortgaged to the hilt, which is what NWA will be looking for.

cheers

mariner

[Edited 2006-02-05 01:22:40]


aeternum nauta
User currently offlineFA4UA From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 812 posts, RR: 19
Reply 5, posted (8 years 10 months 4 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 4199 times:

MARINER-- couldn't have said it better myself!

Bush never gave UA any money! Through the process of Ch. 11 and exhausting every available channel of refuge, we reduced our liabilities to pennies on the dollars, but there was no check from the gov't at anytime!

FA4UA



The debate continues... Starwood or Hyatt... which is better
User currently offlineJetdeltamsy From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 2987 posts, RR: 7
Reply 6, posted (8 years 10 months 4 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 4175 times:

I think NWA's labor groups will come to an agreement with the company without a strike.

I do not, however, think that a strike would cause NWA to liquidate. The company is claiming poverty, but I think they will be able to weather a strike. Since they are in bankruptcy, they can stop paying almost every bill they have so the cash drain would be significantly less than if they were not in bankruptcy.

It will be interesting to see if the government comes up with some sort of plan to allow NWA and Delta to keep the pension plans in tact. An agreement to maintain the pensions would almost certainly preclude any labor action by NWA pilots.



Tired of airline bankruptcies....EA/PA/TW and finally DL.
User currently offlineStevenUhl777 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (8 years 10 months 4 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 4113 times:

Quoting AirlineAV8tr (Reply 1):
For some reason, the only airline they see fit to keep on life support is UAL.

Nooo...the government hasn't given UA a nickel in all of this.

Quoting AirlineAV8tr (Reply 1):
When an airline turns on its employees, they might as well close its doors.

 checkmark 

Quoting Mariner (Reply 4):
The ATSB turned United down twice.

Wasn't it three times? Original was $2B, then $1.6B, then $1.1B? I know they were given three shots. The first shootdown was due to a bad plan, and the last was due to the fact the government felt like UA "didn't need it" anymore.

Quoting Jetdeltamsy (Reply 6):
I do not, however, think that a strike would cause NWA to liquidate. The company is claiming poverty, but I think they will be able to weather a strike.

I do...NW can find replacement F/As and ground employees. They already have with the mechanics...but pilots? Nahhh...if they strike more than 2 days, it's over.


User currently offlineIsitsafenow From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 4984 posts, RR: 23
Reply 8, posted (8 years 10 months 4 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 4092 times:

Quoting Nwafflyer (Reply 2):
Steenland doesn't even write a column in the NWA magazine any longer

I noticed that too, winging back from FLL last week.
safe

Quoting Mariner (Reply 4):
United's exit financing is all mortgaged to the hilt

Three(3) billion dollars worth.
It looks like this: $3,000,000,000.00
WOW!!
safe

Quoting Jetdeltamsy (Reply 6):
I think NWA's labor groups will come to an agreement with the company without a strike.

They better or I'm out a quarter of million miles and it looks like this:
250,000..........
safe



If two people agree on EVERYTHING, then one isn't necessary.
User currently offlineMariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25710 posts, RR: 85
Reply 9, posted (8 years 10 months 4 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 4092 times:
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Quoting StevenUhl777 (Reply 7):
Wasn't it three times? Original was $2B, then $1.6B, then $1.1B?

Yes, okay, two and a half times.

I can't recall if the second one was ever offically turned down or if the ATSB said they were going to turn it down, and United stayed with that application but reduced the amount they wanted.

Quoting StevenUhl777 (Reply 7):
due to the fact the government felt like UA "didn't need it" anymore.

And because Mr. Tilton was telling the world they didn't actually need the money.

I'd love to be able to ask him what that was all about.  Smile

cheers

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineAirRyan From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 2532 posts, RR: 5
Reply 10, posted (8 years 10 months 4 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 4041 times:

Quoting Nwafflyer (Reply 2):
Steenland doesn't even write a column in the NWA magazine any longer

He very rarely even ventures down into the cafeteria out of fear that he will be asked a question from an employee! The last time he spoke to the employees one of them asked a question about the Cancun trip (pre-local media scandal report) and that employee was later called in to Doug's office and chastized for asking that question! I'm smelling HMS Bounty here!


User currently offlineFlyDreamliner From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 2759 posts, RR: 15
Reply 11, posted (8 years 10 months 4 weeks 1 day ago) and read 3986 times:

I think the largest thing plaguing NW is leadership. I think independent of that, there is no reason the airline is too far gone. It's been a really good airline for a long time, the fact it's been poorly managed in the past few years, I hope, isn't enough to run it into the ground. It's really rare an airline as large and diverse as NW just goes under.


"Let the world change you, and you can change the world"
User currently offlineStevenUhl777 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (8 years 10 months 4 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 3912 times:

Quoting Mariner (Reply 9):
And because Mr. Tilton was telling the world they didn't actually need the money.

When you think back, we had Jimmy Goodwin telling us UA would perish without money, then we had Glenn telling us they didn't need it. Progress? Maybe...

Quoting Mariner (Reply 9):
I'd love to be able to ask him what that was all about.

Glenn probably decided he didn't want the Bush administration having a seat on the board and large equity stake in the company. After what we saw with Katrina, I don't want the government managing anything significant!


User currently offlineChristao17 From Thailand, joined Apr 2005, 942 posts, RR: 8
Reply 13, posted (8 years 10 months 4 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 3887 times:

Quoting Jetdeltamsy (Reply 6):
The company is claiming poverty, but I think they will be able to weather a strike. Since they are in bankruptcy, they can stop paying almost every bill they have so the cash drain would be significantly less than if they were not in bankruptcy.

One thing to remember is that to run an airline day-to-day there are tons of ongoing costs (fuel, every contractor you do business with, etc) and those companies are not going to continue providing products and services to NW unless they see the money first.

Bankruptcy allows you to reorganize already existing debts, but not new ones.

My father worked for UA as a purchasing agent and I remember that early on in the bankruptcy, he told me that vendors were doing business with UA only Cash On Delivery. During a strike, if NW is going to continue to operate they will continue to burn through cash.



Keeping the "civil" in civil aviation...
User currently offlineApodino From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 4317 posts, RR: 6
Reply 14, posted (8 years 10 months 4 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 3813 times:

I was thinking that this is what happens when you let Lawyers (Steenland is a lawyer by trade) run airlines. Then I remember, there was a certain lawyer about 35 years ago who started an airline and ran it from scratch, and it has become one of the best run airlines in the country. The Lawyers name, Herb Kelleher.

That being said, Steenland is no Herb Kelleher. And I think him and Frank Lorenzo were separated at birth. Its obvious that NW continues to do bad things PR wise, and if they could have sweatshops run the airline they would. But one thing I have learned is, you keep your people happy, and good things will come. My company is the oldest Regional Carrier in existence, and many people who started with the airline are still with the airline, and many people I work with have been here a long time. Obviously they have been kept happy, and you see the results. Steenland could learn from that. But when he said that NW doesn't want arbitration or mediation in the Pilot dispute, I lost all respect for the man. I want them to survive, but I think new leadership is needed. They have a lot of good things about them, they just need the right man. Anyone know if Bethune is still around?


User currently offlineScalebuilder From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (8 years 10 months 4 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 3767 times:

Quoting Mariner (Reply 9):
And because Mr. Tilton was telling the world they didn't actually need the money.

I'd love to be able to ask him what that was all about.

cheers

mariner

In the end United was able to secure all the exit-financing that the airline needed without the help of the government. That should not be a problem at all for anyone. No taxpayer dollars at waste here.

Ask Mr. Tilton, and he will tell you just that.


User currently offlineIceTitan447 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (8 years 10 months 4 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 3637 times:

Quoting Nwafflyer (Thread starter):
I don't think Bush will rescue them

He better let them drown, he didn't help UAL during their stay.

Quoting AirlineAV8tr (Reply 1):
For some reason, the only airline they see fit to keep on life support is UAL

Is that an independent theory or have you been listening to your bitter FO uncle who like NWA had hopes of UAL going under to save their flawed product?


User currently offlineAMFAproud From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 32 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (8 years 10 months 4 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 3612 times:

I've heard the rumor that the Bush family trust is into Continental and therefore "W" won't intervene in a strike at Delta or NW? Does anyone know for sure?

User currently offlineAirlineAV8tr From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 191 posts, RR: 4
Reply 18, posted (8 years 10 months 4 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 3604 times:

Quoting IceTitan447 (Reply 16):

Is that an independent theory or have you been listening to your bitter FO uncle who like NWA had hopes of UAL going under to save their flawed product?





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I'm referring to all incentives, funding, and grants. And yes, This was from my uncles mouth who has 25 years devoted to a now disabled, depreciating major airline. This is not a NWA labor issue, it's incompetent management. He was with Eastern prior to NWA. I thank the stars that not only do I fly for an airline that respects its flight crews, but is managed in a way that has methodically made it one of only two profitable US major carriers. It's just plain good management. I love, and respect my job with this airline, but I will not put up with poor management from this, or any other carrier anymore! Why would I? I trust that my time in the flight deck is appreciated, and valued. I have worked for two airlines prior to my current position, one being 3 years at UAL, and the difference is night and day. You cannot run an airline with an iron fist, and expect profitability. As I said earlier, once an airline decides to play "bully" and pick the pockets of its crews without digging substantially into their own payscale, might as well save the time of a long and painful evaporation, and start liquidating. You have management that is openly recruiting FA's in the local papers!!! And MX crews that were replaced by "contract MX"! Yep!, I'd agree with you on one thing; my FO uncle is bitter! And by the way you say it, you make it seem like he, or the pilot group all together is at fault! If you are willing to give up the amount of income that my uncle has for a CEO that could care less, then Eastern Airlines could've used you! Heck, you'd make a great Frank Lorenzo! I'm really very surprised to see such negative attitudes towards pilots of NWA, from airline enthusiasts. I'm sure that there are many exceptions, but it's just a shame. Put yourself in the possition for instance with UAL. You devote your life to your work, only for your work to strip you of your life (a.k.a. your Pension). I love NWA, and hope it can pull through this for the sake of its employees. But one thing is certain- management has to connect with the crews, and staff. Unfortunately, neither I, nor my uncle sees this as probable.- That's my opinion, which I'm entitled to! : ) I'm not forcing my beliefs down anyones throat here. This is a "forum" to discuss opinions!

[Edited 2006-02-05 13:35:33]

[Edited 2006-02-05 13:36:46]


If we went into the funeral business, people would stop dying.-Martin S. (PanAm CEO)
User currently offlineLijnden From United States of America, joined Apr 2003, 566 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (8 years 10 months 4 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 3588 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

How about a rescue from the other side of the Atlantic? With not 1 but 2 US partners (NWA & DAL) in bankruptcy, Airbus and Sky-team members (KLM/Air France) are indirect in problems as well? A loss of NWA will be a huge win for Star (UAL) and Lufthansa. I am sure that through banks and third parties, Lufthansa and SQ also helped to bail out UAL. Don't forget, the $ is still cheap and the airline industry is now a global game in which politics are being sold to the best available party.


Be kind to animals! Last trip: ORF-IAD-NRT-IAD-ORF with UAExpress and ANA
User currently offlineLTBEWR From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 13209 posts, RR: 16
Reply 20, posted (8 years 10 months 4 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 3556 times:

Quoting Lijnden (Reply 19):
How about a rescue from the other side of the Atlantic?

There are laws that limit to a maximum of 25% of non-USA ownership of any airline based in the USA. While increasing the percentage might be an attractive option, I doubt it will ever happen due to a variety of political, social and security issues. One reason for this is another government policy that can require an USA airline to dedicate aircraft and staff to provide for emergency transport of our military forces and gear to where they are needed to fight.
Perhaps NW could go for doing troop transport using their DC-10's or frieght for the miltiray on their old 747's. It would be a stedy flow of business and could act as 'subsidy' from the government.


User currently offlineSpartanmjf From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 514 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (8 years 10 months 4 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 3536 times:

Quoting Nwafflyer (Thread starter):
I don't think Bush will rescue them, but I do think an agreement will be reached

In the end, it is not the job of the President to rescue any particular private business. President Bush has already made clear his opinion on a company as large as General Motors - would he support a bailout of a significantly smaller company providing air transport in an industry plagued by over capacity? NW is not even a 'chosen instrument,' as one other famous airline was, to provide an American presence in all parts of the world.

The job of the President and Congress is to provide an environment in which private enterprise can thrive, an environment in which the free market will sort itself out.

My two cents.....



"Nuts to the man in 21D!"
User currently offlineSCCutler From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 5618 posts, RR: 28
Reply 22, posted (8 years 10 months 4 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 3513 times:

Quoting Indy (Reply 3):
Or does the judge in this case qualify as an arbitrator?

There is no need for the judge to "qualify as an arbitrator"; he's a judge and can, therefore, adjudicate. Arbitrators serve instead of judges, with arbitration being an alternative to litigation. That is not an option here. Now, if he thought it beneficial to the process, the judge could appoint a mediator to try to facilitate an arrangement, but nothing can be done without the ultimate approval of teh bankruptcy judge.

Quoting Indy (Reply 3):
Perhaps the judge is less likely to toss out the contract if he discovers the company is fudging on their claims.

You may be certain that the various labor unions are zealously reviewing all company filings for any inaccuracies and inconsistencies that they can use to their advantage. In bankruptcy, under court supervision, they do not have the luxury (?) of withholding relevant information.

Quoting StevenUhl777 (Reply 12):
Glenn probably decided he didn't want the Bush administration having a seat on the board and large equity stake in the company. After what we saw with Katrina, I don't want the government managing anything significant!

Maybe better, then, to state that you don't want Louisiana state government and New Orleans city government on the board...

Quoting Apodino (Reply 14):
And I think him and Frank Lorenzo were separated at birth. Its obvious that NW continues to do bad things PR wise, and if they could have sweatshops run the airline they would.

The principal difference being, at least Francisco Lorenzo saved an airline before his arrogance caused him to lose sight of the fact that an airline is made up of people, not machines.

Quoting AMFAproud (Reply 17):
I've heard the rumor that the Bush family trust is into Continental and therefore "W" won't intervene in a strike at Delta or NW? Does anyone know for sure?

It is administered in Roswell, New Mexico by aliens.

Get real.



...three miles from BRONS, clear for the ILS one five approach...
User currently offlinePRAirbus From Puerto Rico, joined Apr 2005, 1144 posts, RR: 1
Reply 23, posted (8 years 10 months 4 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 3475 times:

What a shame! Not long ago they seemed to be doing quite fine, even better than most US majors. I doubt they will go under. NW is by far one of the largest US Majors in Asia/Pacific there are many reasons why they need to stay around. Unfortunately this government does not care about its airlines or labor. They care about Iraq, Iran, fuel and religion...they do not give a damn about middle-class US workers. Bush could care less, he has said it many times...he does not care about the airlines, all he cares about is making his friends richer and conquering the World for fuel.

User currently offlineDsa From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (8 years 10 months 4 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 3452 times:

Hi

I really do love NWA they seem like a good airline that has run into a patch of misfortune. NWA needs to take drastic steps or the end destination is inevitable.

The C/S is great!

DSA>>>


25 Chgoflyer : It is not the role of the U.S. government under any administration to "CARE" rather their purpose is to ensure business can be conducted. What's happ
26 IceTitan447 : You have no choice. The NWA issue is spiraling out of control, they(crews) are either going along for the ride, or they will get out now. Your Uncle
27 PillowTester : My two cents is that UAL has sortof become the unofficial "flag carrier" of the United States after the demise of Pan Am.
28 Post contains images FXramper : Your kidding right? How many millions in aid did the government give to UA after 9/11?
29 Skymileman : I think the one thing the pilots should under no circumstances back down on is this crazy plan for "NewCo." It would set a precedent in the industry t
30 Mattnrsa : After 9/11, the govt gave ALL US carriers aid, but, considering how much airlines were losing due to a complete shutdown of US air traffic and the fo
31 Scalebuilder : The government wrote a check to just about every airline after 9/11 to prevent disintegration of the entire airline industry. This discussion is not
32 Cloudy : The government does charter airliners for the purpose. However, nobody makes a boatload of money on it, since the rates paid are relatively low - in
33 Slovacek747 : Hey PRAirbus.. why dont you come down to texas and get a texas sized whoop a$$.. you are an ingnorant idiot so next you say something make sure you kn
34 Post contains images Uadc8contrail : Slovacek747, you or a family member must work for a "texas sized whoop a$$"based airline
35 Post contains images Skip17 : Hahahahaha Thank you. Ultimately, it seems in MY OPINION (so don't flame me for it), President Bush would be smarter to stay out of this. With so man
36 Positiverate : Hmm...the same incentives, funding and grants that NWA got you mean? The ones after 9/11? We've already shown that UA was turned down byt he ATSB. Or
37 AA1818 : Question- a couple of months before NW ordered the 787's this forum was filled with posts about US legacies....UA is down and out, AA was supposedly h
38 Georgetown : Absolutly correct and the most "on point" response to the second part of this topic. I'd love to see a link to some direct evidence of this. What an
39 Antoniemey : He's around somewhere, but he likely wouldn't take the job.
40 Post contains images Spartanmjf : Interesting point - yes they did buy the Pacific Division of PA, but Delta basically inherited [for better or worse] most of the rest of the network.
41 IceTitan447 : My opinion? They bet the house UAL would fold. I use to work for a fella, his brother was a big wig with NWA, he said UAL wasn't going to make it. Th
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