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Delta Pilots To Open Strike Center In Atlanta  
User currently offlineKarlB737 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 3100 posts, RR: 10
Posted (8 years 6 months 2 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 6232 times:

Courtesy: Reuters

Delta Pilots To Open Strike Center In Atlanta

http://biz.yahoo.com/rb/060209/airlines_delta_bankruptcy.html?.v=1

56 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineDL787932ER From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 597 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (8 years 6 months 2 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 6213 times:

I guess the union has to look strong, but both sides know there's no point in brinksmanship. They'll work out a deal by the deadline; both parties have too much to lose otherwise. There won't be any DL pilot strike.


F L Y D E L T A J E T S
User currently offlinePoitin From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (8 years 6 months 2 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 6191 times:

Reminds me of when Eastern Airlines management and Pilots commited a mutual suicide with a strike a number of years ago.

A pity, because at one time Delta was the best.


User currently offlineDeltaGator From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 6341 posts, RR: 13
Reply 3, posted (8 years 6 months 2 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 6191 times:

Pretty much expected this one sooner or later. I'm not a huge fan of unions but these guys are getting mistreated by DL somewhat. I know they made a huge salary compared to other carriers but they made concessions once already and it seems management at the time screwed things up and squandered it. Now management has come back to the well asking for more because of their miscalculations.

Talk about being stuck between a rock and a hard place for the pilots. Keep your job and get screwed by the company or strike and most likely send the airline into liquidation and therefore no job.

One thing of note is that Grinstein and Whitehurst have opted out of the severence package they are trying to get set up for management retention. I'm sure they have a golden parachute somewhere but it does set a small example to their employees that they aren't completely evil.



"If you can't delight in the misery of others then you don't deserve to be a college football fan."
User currently offlineKarlB737 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 3100 posts, RR: 10
Reply 4, posted (8 years 6 months 2 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 6172 times:

Courtesy: The Associated Press

Delta Union To Strike If Pact Rejected

http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/060209/delta.html?.v=4


User currently offlineLightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12981 posts, RR: 100
Reply 5, posted (8 years 6 months 2 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 6146 times:
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Quote:
Delta Union to Strike if Pact Rejected

Title from:
http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/060209/delta.html?.v=4

Quote:

Delta and the negotiating committee of the union that represents its 6,000 pilots have less than three weeks to reach a comprehensive agreement on a second round of permanent pay and benefit cuts.

If the sides can't do that by March 1, a three-person arbitration panel will decide Delta's request that its contract with its pilots be thrown out so the company can impose $325 million in cuts unilaterally.

The pilots union has offered about $115 million in annual concessions.

That is quite a gap to bridge... with the cash DL is bleeding, this could get ugly. How long of a strike could Delta survive? A week? Two? A month?  scared  How long can Delta survive without concessions? Six months? A year?  gnasher  DeltaGator said it well with:

Quoting DeltaGator (Reply 3):
Talk about being stuck between a rock and a hard place for the pilots. Keep your job and get screwed by the company or strike and most likely send the airline into liquidation and therefore no job.

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlineDL787932ER From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 597 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (8 years 6 months 2 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 6137 times:

Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 5):
How long of a strike could Delta survive?

If the pilots strike, DL will liquidate immediately. Grinstein has said as much, and the pilots and their union surely know it. That's why, just like a few months ago with the temporary deal, a permanent resolution will be reached by the deadline.



F L Y D E L T A J E T S
User currently offlineSupa7E7 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (8 years 6 months 2 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 6126 times:

Quoting DeltaGator (Reply 3):
Talk about being stuck between a rock and a hard place for the pilots. Keep your job and get screwed by the company or strike and most likely send the airline into liquidation and therefore no job.

Unemployed pilots are the ones who are stuck in a bad situation. DL pilots are among the luckiest workers on planet Earth, in terms of their salary. If you feel bad for DL pilots, you should be very sad about 95% of Americans, 99.9% of the rest of the world and probably sorry for yourself as well. These are fortunate people who have not behaved gracefully in years past, something that should not be forgotten in this time of predictable fallout.


User currently offlinePoitin From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (8 years 6 months 2 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 6126 times:

Quoting DeltaGator (Reply 3):
Talk about being stuck between a rock and a hard place for the pilots. Keep your job and get screwed by the company or strike and most likely send the airline into liquidation and therefore no job.

I would say it is "Keep your job for a little longer and get screwed by the company." Delta has serious problems and management does not seem to know how to fix them. Time to press the "reset" button, unfortunately.


User currently offlineFlyPNS1 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 6603 posts, RR: 24
Reply 9, posted (8 years 6 months 2 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 6031 times:

Quoting DL787932ER (Reply 6):
That's why, just like a few months ago with the temporary deal, a permanent resolution will be reached by the deadline.

While I do tend to agree with you, this may be a tough agreement to hammer out. The vote for the temporary deal was far closer (only 58% said yes) than many had expected and I think the vote on a final package could be even closer.

For most of DL's FO's, it won't be that hard to replace their current income given how far their current income has fallen at DL. For captain's it's a different story, they have much more to lose.

I also think DL management is going to have to balance their growth plans better if they want pilots to accept concessions. Right now, DL management wants to massively expand large RJ operations using the DCI carriers. However, at the same time, they plan to continue shrinking DL mainline. This means that many of DL's FO's will stand little chance of upgrading to captain in any reasonable time frame.


User currently offlineN1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26414 posts, RR: 75
Reply 10, posted (8 years 6 months 2 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 6003 times:

Quoting Poitin (Reply 2):
Reminds me of when Eastern Airlines management and Pilots commited a mutual suicide with a strike a number of years ago.

Actually, it was the Mechanics and the Management, but yeah

Quoting DL787932ER (Reply 6):
If the pilots strike, DL will liquidate immediately. Grinstein has said as much, and the pilots and their union surely know it. That's why, just like a few months ago with the temporary deal, a permanent resolution will be reached by the deadline.

If DL thinks the pilots are something to worry about, they should really be worried about all their non-union employees. There are rules that govern when and how a union can strike, a non-union employee group can walk out with absolutely ZERO notice and cripple DL with no warning at all. It is actually the case with DL that they have hurt themselves by being so staunchly anti-union.



Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
User currently offlineDL787932ER From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 597 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (8 years 6 months 2 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 5979 times:

Quoting N1120A (Reply 10):

Without a union, who would organize a large-scale strike? That scenario doesn't make sense. All the employees except the pilots had their wages cut at the start of the year; there's no reason for a random group of employees to just up and leave because of a wage cut they knew about for months. The only wage issue left is the pilots because they're the only unionized group.



F L Y D E L T A J E T S
User currently offlineDeltaGator From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 6341 posts, RR: 13
Reply 12, posted (8 years 6 months 2 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 5933 times:

Quoting Supa7E7 (Reply 7):
If you feel bad for DL pilots, you should be very sad about 95% of Americans, 99.9% of the rest of the world and probably sorry for yourself as well. These are fortunate people who have not behaved gracefully in years past, something that should not be forgotten in this time of predictable fallout.

"Feeling bad" is probably the wrong term to use. It makes me sound like some liberal bedwetter. Do I think DL pilots were getting a lot of money for the amount of work they do? Yes. Do I think they were overpaid? Probably. Do I think they are getting the shaft because the old management squandering the earlier concessions and now the newer management (meet the new boss...same as the old boss) has come back to the well? Yes.

I certainly don't feel sad for them or anyone else out there. Not sure where you were going with that comment though.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 9):
Right now, DL management wants to massively expand large RJ operations using the DCI carriers.

What?! I thought we all knew by now the myth of the RJ and lower costs. Unless of course they can get CASM costs down by cutting all other costs as well.



"If you can't delight in the misery of others then you don't deserve to be a college football fan."
User currently offlineAirFrnt From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 2826 posts, RR: 42
Reply 13, posted (8 years 6 months 2 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 5899 times:

Quoting Poitin (Reply 2):
Reminds me of when Eastern Airlines management and Pilots commited a mutual suicide with a strike a number of years ago.

A pity, because at one time Delta was the best.

Calling it mutual suicide I don't think is accurate. It was murder-suicide. The fact that Eastern handed the unions the gun (trying to convience them that the fiscal condition of the company really was that bad) didn't excuse the unions from actually using it.


User currently offlineDAL767400ER From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (8 years 6 months 2 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 5884 times:

Quoting Poitin (Reply 8):
Delta has serious problems and management does not seem to know how to fix them

Obviously YOU know better, don't you  Yeah sure .

Quoting Poitin (Reply 8):
Time to press the "reset" button, unfortunately.

Tell that the tens of thousands of employees that would lose their job face to face.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 9):
Right now, DL management wants to massively expand large RJ operations using the DCI carriers.

Is that the same airline that planes to drop 30-50 CRJs at Comair? And if you mean expanded use of 70-seaters, the EMB-170s, which will be the primary plane, are not RJs. They are mainline planes, just flown by DCI pilots.


User currently offlineH53Epilot From Israel, joined Mar 2004, 177 posts, RR: 2
Reply 15, posted (8 years 6 months 2 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 5846 times:

EMB-170s are in fact, 70-seat regional jets. They are not mainline planes. They are regional planes flown by regional pilots, AKA CHQ. What am I missing?

User currently offlineDAL767400ER From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (8 years 6 months 2 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 5846 times:

Quoting H53Epilot (Reply 15):
What am I missing?

Simple, ask Embraer themselves. The E-Jet family are not Regional Jets.


User currently offlinePoitin From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (8 years 6 months 2 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 5795 times:

Quoting DAL767400ER (Reply 14):
Quoting Poitin (Reply 8):
Delta has serious problems and management does not seem to know how to fix them

Obviously YOU know better, don't you Yeah sure .

If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and swims like a duck, it does not take much to know that it is probably a duck. If you think Delta's management is not to blame, then that is fine by me. They are lame ducks in any case.

Quoting DAL767400ER (Reply 14):
Quoting Poitin (Reply 8):
Time to press the "reset" button, unfortunately.

Tell that the tens of thousands of employees that would lose their job face to face.

Unless you can replace Delta's management, which I submit you cannot, then what else happens? They will lose their jobs regardless what you might wish. That is life in the American business world: You lose your job, you get another.

Life goes on.


User currently offlineWesternA318 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 5652 posts, RR: 24
Reply 18, posted (8 years 6 months 2 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 5758 times:

Looks like its time I finally make good on my plans to up my shares in AirTran from 1500 to 2250...  duck 


Next trip: SLC-DEN-SLC-PHX-JFK-LAX-SLC with my wife and oldest daughter. F9 to and from DEN, US to JFK, AA 321 and CR7
User currently offlineFlyPNS1 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 6603 posts, RR: 24
Reply 19, posted (8 years 6 months 2 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 5739 times:

Quoting DAL767400ER (Reply 14):
Is that the same airline that planes to drop 30-50 CRJs at Comair? And if you mean expanded use of 70-seaters, the EMB-170s, which will be the primary plane, are not RJs. They are mainline planes, just flown by DCI pilots.

Yes, DL is dumping 30-50 of the smaller 50 seat RJ's, however they want permission to add up to 200 79-seat RJ's.

You are dreaming if you think all of these orders are going to be EMB170's. It would be nice as the EMB170 is a superior plane in terms of comfort, but many of the large RJ's will be of the CRJ variety. DL could never get enough EMB170 delivery slots, not to mention fleet commonality issues at certain regionals (ASA/SkyWest won't be buying the the EMB170).

But the bottomline for the DL mainline pilots, is that DL is willing to invest big money into planes that the pilots will never get to fly. Eventually, the pilots are bound to get fed up watching DL hand a bigger and bigger chunk of its revenues to the regional affiliates. DL has already invested huge amounts of money into the DCI carriers and has very little to show for it.


User currently offlineLTBEWR From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 13073 posts, RR: 12
Reply 20, posted (8 years 6 months 2 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 5701 times:

Maybe President Bush should use his claimed anti-terror and national security powers and wiretap without warrents the phone lines of this office and the pilots. He could claim that the pilots are holding Americans hostage.  biggrin 
Seriously, this could have a huge impact on the economy the lives of many people with and around the airline as well as millions of it's customers. The big fear is that of the end of DL as an airline. While I understand that maybe the cuts have gone too far against DL's pilots from their view, it would sure look like suricide to me. It also certantly wouldn't look good on Bush's or any Politican's resume if this strike were to happen. As a major international carrier, it could really hurt our tourism as well for a long time and probably well into Summer, until DL's capicity is covered by other airlines, stand many 1,000's throughout the USA and elsewhere in the world, as well as our security, diplomacy, image and so on.


User currently offlineIlikeyyc From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 1373 posts, RR: 20
Reply 21, posted (8 years 6 months 2 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 5662 times:

pretty much what I posted on another forum...


It is the responsibility of union leaders to act in the best interest of their members. However, in this case, I see it as political maneuvering. They can't just say to their members "we'll fight for you" while at the same time they are agreeing to wage reductions or else it is an empty promise. They are just keeping members happy while they give in to management. Yet the members could reject the contract since they are the ones who have to ratify it. I don't see them going on strike.

Personally, I don't want anything to happen to Delta because, as a newbie mechanic at ASA, my job is tied to Delta.



Fighting Absurdity with Absurdity!
User currently offlineDeltaGator From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 6341 posts, RR: 13
Reply 22, posted (8 years 6 months 2 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 5649 times:

Quoting Ilikeyyc (Reply 21):
It is the responsibility of union leaders to act in the best interest of their members.

Responsibility is one thing. The actual actions of fat cat union leaders are another thing. When both sides take a "Screw You!" attitude then they both lose in the end.



"If you can't delight in the misery of others then you don't deserve to be a college football fan."
User currently offlineIlikeyyc From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 1373 posts, RR: 20
Reply 23, posted (8 years 6 months 2 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 5550 times:

Quoting DeltaGator (Reply 22):
Responsibility is one thing. The actual actions of fat cat union leaders are another thing. When both sides take a "Screw You!" attitude then they both lose in the end.

Responsibility as in "resopnsible to the people that pay the dues."

It is also the duty of management not to agree to anything that they can't deliver on. I'm thinking of the pay raises when Mullin was in charge.

But, yes, neither side is perfect, both sides are looking after their own interests- share holders and labor.



Fighting Absurdity with Absurdity!
User currently offlineOttoPylit From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (8 years 6 months 2 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 5520 times:

Quoting Supa7E7 (Reply 7):
Unemployed pilots are the ones who are stuck in a bad situation. DL pilots are among the luckiest workers on planet Earth, in terms of their salary. If you feel bad for DL pilots, you should be very sad about 95% of Americans, 99.9% of the rest of the world and probably sorry for yourself as well. These are fortunate people who have not behaved gracefully in years past, something that should not be forgotten in this time of predictable fallout.

I have to say, someone 'gets it.'

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 19):
But the bottomline for the DL mainline pilots, is that DL is willing to invest big money into planes that the pilots will never get to fly

You are hearing this from a guy who has never spoken in depth with a DL pilot and is unaware that DL pilots have no interest in flying a plane under 100 seats. And if they do, they don't want the pay of the 70 seater. DL was very willing to put DL pilots in a 170, but the pilots want nothing to do with, so you move to the next group.



OttoPylit


25 Post contains images Surfdog75 : You are exactly right. We are already fed up with the massive job transfer. Scope is the most important issue for me and many others. Anything over 7
26 Gigneil : That isn't correct. They are flown by Republic, just like pretty much every other E170 in the US. They're contracted by DCI, and they say Delta Conne
27 OttoPylit : See. OttoPylit
28 Post contains images OttoPylit : And by the way, what do you think will happen with a strike? Makes you wonder doesn't it, who's the worse of the two evils? OttoPylit
29 Post contains images DeltaGuy : Been awhile since we've had a good union thread eh? From the articles- The airline had asked the union to eliminate a furlough provision, which was si
30 FlyPNS1 : I've talked to plenty of DL pilots and many feel exactly like Surfdog. They are tired of watching DL replace 732/733/MD88 routes with RJ's. They might
31 Goaliemn : The big difference is most non-union people will quit. Too many union people feel they are entitled to a job at DL for a certain pay. If you try to s
32 Post contains images LongbowPilot : You can only ask a non-pilot at DL to take so many paycuts before they are on food stamps ya know. The PILOTS make far more then the ramp rats up to
33 Chgoflyer : Hurricanes, poorly run companies with over paid employees, toenail fungus, problems in the Mid-East, no meals in couch! all W's fault
34 Post contains images OttoPylit : No shit? Who wouldn't be? How does this statement prove anything being said? Once again, not surprising this guy hasn't heard anything. One of the pr
35 FlyPNS1 : It explains why the pilots are hesitant to help the company. Why help the company when the company is going to take the concession money and invest i
36 Tango-Bravo : Why bother? If we have learned anything from pilots, we know that after much bluster and empty rhetoric, they will "cave" to whatever draconian conce
37 Post contains links KarlB737 : Courtesy: The Washington Post Delta Pilots Want Wage Scales Restored By HARRY R. WEBER The Associated Press Friday, February 10, 2006; 4:24 PM ATLANTA
38 DeltaGuy : In a way, what the pilots are asking for is completely reasonable. As it sits now, especially with the threat of the contract being destroyed, one has
39 WesternA318 : "If you smacked a kid in the face with a bottle of Johnson and Johnson's No More Tears, would it create beautiful irony?" DeltaGuy, welcome to my RU l
40 Boeingfan : Bankruptcy, debt, rising fuel costs... gee...wonder what will happen if pilots strike? Chapter 7 liquidation? The fleet sale ... Just what AA and othe
41 N1120A : Thing is, DL's people were already some of the best paid in the industry, specifically because DL knows that they can just up and leave. If it got to
42 OttoPylit : Says who, the pilots? Real biased source there, no? They didn't offer that. I'm actually speaking out of context because I'm not that privy to the of
43 Bucky707 : that comment goes to show how little you know about pilot contracts. Pay rates were a very small part of the process during the first round and are a
44 Post contains images OttoPylit : Then apparently the rest of the company doesn't know either, because I'm looking at an old Delta Digest that refers to the pilots ratifying the 32.5%
45 FlyPNS1 : Past history. DL hasn't invested a dime in buying a mainline plane in years. Yet, how many RJ's have been added in that time? My guess is 100+. Maybe
46 Post contains images OttoPylit : The last 738 recieved was in 2001, I believe. And there are still more on confirmed order. So with the exception of 9/11 and the downturn in travel,
47 Panamair : I agree that ALL employees should see 'snapbacks' (or some form of it) if DL were to become massively profitable. However, if there are to be snap-ba
48 DeltaGuy : The language they've been using seems to indicate they'd love to if they could...the mere fact that they offered $300 mil in case shows that they're
49 Skibum9 : OK what about rewarding the shareholders? They are the true owners of the company, not management, not the employees and not the pilots. They have se
50 Halls120 : Not really. My brother is a DL captain. He's already had job offers outside of DL, and the pay cut he would take isn't materially different than what
51 Bucky707 : in the deal that cut pay 32.5%, we also had changes to work rules, the pension and many other things. The entire letter of agreement for that contrac
52 DeltaGuy : Thanks for the full list there Bucky...I had seen the memo when it came out, and thought the same thing, how can they itemize these items..too bad the
53 Skibum9 : First, I totally agree that the severance packages or golden parachutes for "select" management is digusting. The company I work for went through a s
54 Bucky707 : you are welcome. And actually, that is not even a full list. It is from a brief summary of the agreement. The summary did not cover everything, just
55 OttoPylit : Oh, I'm not saying I agree to it, nor am I saying the pilots shouldn't be upset. I'm just saying don't put a checkmark down for it if the company has
56 DeltaGuy : I remember that movie well...at this point, the greed is in how deep can they make the concessions. I don't see any greed on the side of ALPA, right
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