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Is Flying All Coach Class Going To Work?  
User currently offlineNwab787techops From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 219 posts, RR: 0
Posted (8 years 5 months 2 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 3485 times:

DL,US,and AA flying all coach aircraft to Europe. Is this going to work? You say you are a full service airline, but then your not on all your routes.

15 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineRoseFlyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 9490 posts, RR: 52
Reply 1, posted (8 years 5 months 2 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 3479 times:

Quoting Nwab787techops (Thread starter):
DL,US,and AA flying all coach aircraft to Europe. Is this going to work? You say you are a full service airline, but then your not on all your routes.

That won't work as economy accross the Atlantic often is not profitable. For many flights business and first class even subsidize economy. The yields on the premium cabins tend to be higher. There is so much competition in economy so that 80% of the year fares are too low or loads are too low to earn a profit without the premium cabins.

All coach is great for short flights since people are unlikely to to pay for first class, but on longer flights people pay for comfort and many companies send their employees in business class although these are usually at discounted rates.



If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
User currently offlineDL787932ER From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 597 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (8 years 5 months 2 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 3461 times:

A few months of coach service to leisure destinations isn't the worst thing in the world for DL. It's better than not being able to serve the routes during the busy summer season because you parked the planes to reconfigure them early. Medallions and whatnot will still at least get the domestic F seats.


F L Y D E L T A J E T S
User currently offlineSATX From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 2840 posts, RR: 7
Reply 3, posted (8 years 5 months 2 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 3417 times:

Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 1):
For many flights business and first class even subsidize economy.

It looks to me like we're starting to see trends that might imply those days are coming to an end. Fewer premium seats, two class and even single class service on routes that once supported three classes for some carriers. If premium seats were still the holy grail they once were, then perhaps none of this would be necessary or beneficial for the airlines who are making these changes.



Open Season on Consumer Protections is Just Around the Corner...
User currently offlineChiGB1973 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 1613 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (8 years 5 months 2 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 3414 times:

Quoting Nwab787techops (Thread starter):
DL,US,and AA flying all coach aircraft to Europe. Is this going to work? You say you are a full service airline, but then your not on all your routes.

Is there a link or is this theoretical?

Lucrative markets, ie, BOS-FRA, ATL-FRA, CLT-FRA will always get a 2 or more class airplane on scheduled service. Of course, never say never, but I would think the competition is too much to alter much or often. Maybe some small Euro destinations would reap some benefits vs no or limited service.

I used FRA because it is served by all three from some of their largest markets.

M


User currently offlineNwab787techops From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 219 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (8 years 5 months 2 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 3374 times:

Quoting ChiGB1973 (Reply 4):
Maybe some small Euro destinations would reap some benefits vs no or limited service.

Yes,

Small Euro destinations will reap benefits. CO is doing just that with it's B757-B's, but you have the same good service on EWR-SNN as you EWR-LGW. I don't see why AA,US,and DL are not doing that too?


User currently offlineAirbazar From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 8202 posts, RR: 10
Reply 6, posted (8 years 5 months 2 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 3344 times:

Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 1):
That won't work as economy accross the Atlantic often is not profitable. For many flights business and first class even subsidize economy. The yields on the premium cabins tend to be higher. There is so much competition in economy so that 80% of the year fares are too low or loads are too low to earn a profit without the premium cabins

Your mixing bits of domestic facts with bits of trans-atlantic facts but I don't entirely agree. You're right in saying that the seats up front pay fo rhte flights but trans-atlantic service is very profitable and not at all saturated, unlike a lot of domestic routes. For most if not all Legacy carriers, trans-atlantic routes are some of the most profitable routes in their network and that's why you're seeing and expansion of trans-atlantic service by the Legacy carriers.
Some are elimintating First class and some are even starting to offer all coach flights, leading me to believe that in the trans-atlantic market, coach is more profitable than ever.

Long gone are the days of $200 R/T tickets in the middle of the Winter. These days if you can fly to Europe in the off-season for less than $500 it's a bargain. By contrast, you can fly the same distance domestically for half the price.


User currently offlineDartland From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 643 posts, RR: 2
Reply 7, posted (8 years 5 months 2 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 3336 times:
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Correct me if I'm wrong (as I'm sure many of you will), but I was under the impression that the 1-class transatlantic was a temporary thing as they switch planes between markets, and they will be installing new biz class sections in those planes after the busy summer season, full of leisure travelers.

I know I heard this about DL. Not sure about the others.


User currently offlineFLYACYYZ From Canada, joined Jan 2004, 1914 posts, RR: 12
Reply 8, posted (8 years 5 months 2 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 3320 times:

Certain markets both out of the US and Canada have very little market for sustainable premium traffic. Some include:

MAN
GLA
DUB
SNN
LIS

All that happens is that Y/C is grossly oversold, with heaps of upgrading to the premium cabin with very little revenue return.



Above and Beyond
User currently offlineRoseFlyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 9490 posts, RR: 52
Reply 9, posted (8 years 5 months 2 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 3294 times:

Quoting Airbazar (Reply 6):
These days if you can fly to Europe in the off-season for less than $500 it's a bargain. By contrast, you can fly the same distance domestically for half the price.

I agree, but transatlantic flights are so much more expensive to operate. The large jets required are very expensive to operate and require a lot of crew that have to have a layover on the other side of the Atlantic which have to be recouped by the larger capacity of the airplane. Stations on the other side of the ocean may see less than five flights a day, but will need possibly hundreds of employees to take care of everything in order to handle the huge jets. Yes distances are similar in the United States, but frequencies are higher and taxes and fees are lower which all help to reduce costs.

Quoting Airbazar (Reply 6):
You're right in saying that the seats up front pay fo rhte flights but trans-atlantic service is very profitable and not at all saturated, unlike a lot of domestic routes. For most if not all Legacy carriers, trans-atlantic routes are some of the most profitable routes in their network and that's why you're seeing and expansion of trans-atlantic service by the Legacy carriers.

While I think they used to be more profitable, there are an awful lot of airlines flying more and more competitive business classes. I think yields are eroding. Fares might not be going down, but they don't seem to be going up either as the density of the business class cabins goes down.



If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
User currently offlineDLPMMM From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 3589 posts, RR: 10
Reply 10, posted (8 years 5 months 2 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 3245 times:

Quoting Dartland (Reply 7):
Correct me if I'm wrong (as I'm sure many of you will), but I was under the impression that the 1-class transatlantic was a temporary thing as they switch planes between markets, and they will be installing new biz class sections in those planes after the busy summer season, full of leisure travelers.

I know I heard this about DL. Not sure about the others.

You are correct in DL's case. DL is converting some of their 764s to International Biz-E config. The planes will fly as Y only until the conversions can take place.

I have not heard of the other two airlines (AA and US) flying coach only flights to Europe so I do not know where the original poster gets this idea.


User currently offlineFLYACYYZ From Canada, joined Jan 2004, 1914 posts, RR: 12
Reply 11, posted (8 years 5 months 2 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 3201 times:

Quoting DLPMMM (Reply 10):
I have not heard of the other two airlines (AA and US) flying coach only flights to Europe so I do not know where the original poster gets this idea.

Don't have the complete list, but I know AA operates BOS-MAN on a 757 with a dual F/Y cabin, but is sold as all Y. Presume the forward seats are sold at a premium or allocated to AAdvantage members.



Above and Beyond
User currently offlineDLPMMM From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 3589 posts, RR: 10
Reply 12, posted (8 years 5 months 2 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 3135 times:

Quoting FLYACYYZ (Reply 11):
Don't have the complete list, but I know AA operates BOS-MAN on a 757 with a dual F/Y cabin, but is sold as all Y. Presume the forward seats are sold at a premium or allocated to AAdvantage members.

Probably allocated in the same fashion as DL's 764s (also F/Y until conversion).

F seats allocated on first come basis to Full Y fare purchasers and Elite FF program members.


User currently offlineTango-Bravo From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 3802 posts, RR: 29
Reply 13, posted (8 years 5 months 2 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 3107 times:

Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 1):
That won't work as economy accross the Atlantic often is not profitable. For many flights business and first class even subsidize economy.

Not if most to nearly all of the pax sitting in first and business are there by way of upgrades from coach fares and free mileage award tickets!

While I would be among the last to "accuse" AA, DL and US of making consistently good decisions, I do not believe for a nanosecond that they would go to all coach configuration if there are enough pax paying first and business fares on their flights to justify the premium cabins.


User currently offlineRoseFlyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 9490 posts, RR: 52
Reply 14, posted (8 years 5 months 2 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 3078 times:

Quoting Tango-Bravo (Reply 13):
That won't work as economy accross the Atlantic often is not profitable. For many flights business and first class even subsidize economy.

Not if most to nearly all of the pax sitting in first and business are there by way of upgrades from coach fares and free mileage award tickets!

That is hardly true. People do pay for business and first class on international fights. Upgrades are actually hard to get at times for these flights. Most first class passengers on domestic flights seem to be upgrades, but that is partially because elite members know that they can get upgraded most of the time, so there is no reason to buy first class tickets.

On international flights, it is rare that an airline will ever allow a passenger to upgrade two cabins. First class passengers either payed the fair or used their miles up to upgrade from a high fare business class. Also you can't upgrade from deeply discounted international tickets most of the time. Businesses pay for business class. Many premium class travelers are there because their company payed for them to be there, and companies rarely if ever upgrade passengers as they usually pay discounts that don't allow upgrades and sometimes don't even allow mileage accrual.

Also using up miles for flights isn't an entirely bad thing. Those miles will be used somewhere. Airlines award them to passengers. They can't just expect them to disappear. And with upgrades and international flights taking a lot of miles, they are a good way to empty accounts.

I would love to see data on this type of information, but unfortunately there isn't much data as to the number of passengers that upgrade on certain flights available as those are trade secrets that the airlines keep to themselves.



If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
User currently offlineLH121GLA From Germany, joined May 2004, 455 posts, RR: 1
Reply 15, posted (8 years 5 months 2 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 2906 times:

Quoting FLYACYYZ (Reply 8):
Certain markets both out of the US and Canada have very little market for sustainable premium traffic. Some include:

MAN
GLA
DUB
SNN
LIS

US currently still showing the 767 for sale throughout the summer on
GLA/PHL/GLA ... but all dates has Envoy Class with 0 seats - so looks
like it will be the 757 with all economy configuration. Same goes for
SNN/PHL/SNN.


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