No YYC From Canada, joined Jul 2000, 73 posts, RR: 0 Posted (12 years 11 months 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 1057 times:
After having just seen how the Vegas charter flights from YYC and YEG are always packed full, would it not be extremely profitable for a regularly scheduled airline to pick up this route from these two cities? Anyone have an opinion?
LAXINTL From United States of America, joined May 2000, 22258 posts, RR: 51 Reply 3, posted (12 years 11 months 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 905 times:
The Las Vegas market is a huge leisure market, not many business travellers or last minute high yield flyers from Canada. Vegas bookings are often made 2 or more months in advance as part of package deals and tend to peak on Thursdays and Sundays.
While you see big loads, these are mostly all low yield passengers.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
Travelin man From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 3316 posts, RR: 0 Reply 4, posted (12 years 11 months 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 892 times:
Sorry, I have to disagree with LAXINTL. Las Vegas is a HUGE convention town with tons of business people flying there. It is a large leisure market, but you are mistaken in saying that LAS passengers are mostly low-yield. I'm sure it could support regular flights to YYC or YEG (Canadians like to gamble too). I believe America West just initiated service to Toronto, but I can't remember if it was from PHX or LAS (I'm thinking it was PHX). America West could be a candidate to start more Canadian non-stops out of their OTHER hub, Las Vegas. Lucky Canadians will get to experience the joys of flying America West...
Johnboy From United States of America, joined Aug 1999, 2477 posts, RR: 1 Reply 5, posted (12 years 11 months 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 877 times:
Unfortunately for out neighbors to the North, Southwest still doesn't fly there! WN just announced another new destination nonstop to LAS: Louisville (SDF). In their marketing spiel, WN states that LAS is a major growth market for them now; recently they've started service from IND, and now Louisville. One can only imagine the markets in Western Canada to LAS if only WN flew there. Just pray that someday Herb decides to take an interest North of the border.....
No YYC From Canada, joined Jul 2000, 73 posts, RR: 0 Reply 8, posted (12 years 11 months 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 871 times:
I agree with Travelin Man, Las Vegas is no longer a pure leisure destination. As the gaming industry expands in Vegas, so do other sectors of the economy (such as service, manufacturing, construction, engineering, etc.). Las Vegas is the fastest growing metropolitan center in the U.S. People can't all be flocking to Vegas just because of gambling. In the early 90's America West had direct service from YEG & YYC to LAS continuing on to LAX. I can remember that not everyone on those flights were low yield tourists. All things considered at least a weekly or bi-weekly flight from YYC & YEG would turn a nice profit for a regular carrier.
AC183 From Canada, joined Jul 1999, 1532 posts, RR: 2 Reply 9, posted (12 years 11 months 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 868 times:
From all I've heard, Southwest isn't interested in the costs of flying across the border. There was a discussion on the topic at Planebusiness.com a while ago, and the consensus was (including some WJ people, and I believe SW folks too) that when WJ is established in eastern Canada, and when it improves on its fleet age, then it will look at flying to the US, and that SW metal was unlikely to cross the border, that it would be more likely for WJ to carry traffic across the border to feed SW.
As to LAS, it may have some business traffic, but it's still a low yield route, with traffic surging on certain days of the week and in certain seasons. For this reason the charters are best able to serve the route. As to high load factors, they have to be or else it wouldn't work given the generally low yield. Also, once or twice a week flights by major carriers would have a problem in that they wouldn't attract business travellers. Not that LAS wouldn't work, but I don't think it would exactly be a gold mine, either. I see this route as being more of a charter style route for the time being. Now, PHX, on the other hand, I do see really potential for. It's still somewhat seasonal, but it does have a little more obvious connectability to the southwestern states (LAS doesn't have a hub image to lure connecting biz passengers) if AWA was to start it up, and I see more potential for 2 way traffic (not just pax heading southbound).
Johnboy From United States of America, joined Aug 1999, 2477 posts, RR: 1 Reply 10, posted (12 years 11 months 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 855 times:
I have to respectfully disagree. LAS is indeed a growing market, and not just for gamblers. Major conventions To follow this line of thinking, most SunBelt cities would be serviced by charters because of seasonality. I think Western Canada has more in common with the Western US than it does with its sister provinces back East. Thus, western cities should be connected. Calgary and Edmonton are rather large cities, not to mention Winnipeg. Perhaps National Airlines would be interested. Geographically speaking, look at Vegas and Phoenix on a map. To me, Vegas is the better hub because it's a bit more north. Sorry, this is a bit "stream-of-consciousness" but we're all throwing together several ideas.
AC183 From Canada, joined Jul 1999, 1532 posts, RR: 2 Reply 11, posted (12 years 11 months 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 846 times:
"I have to respectfully disagree. LAS is indeed a growing market and not
just for gamblers. Major conventions To follow this line of thinking, most SunBelt cities would be serviced by charters because of seasonality"
I agree, LAS is a growing market, and not just for gambling, but the percentage of travellers to LAS from western Canada who are gamblers is, from my perspective anyways, higher than passengers from in the US. I just don't see convention traffic as hugely significant from the prairie provincies, it's almost all holiday traffic.
As to the comment that "to follow this line of thinking most sunbelt cities would be serviced by charters" is actually quite correct. From Winnipeg, Calgary, Edmonton, and even Saskatoon, Regina and Thunder Bay there are many sunbelt destinations served exactly the same way LAS is- by Royal, Canada3000 and AirTransat. Not just US cities, but into Mexico and the Carribean, but also to Vegas, Orlando, Los Angeles, and several destinations in between.
As to LAS versus PHX as a hub, LAS is better placed, but psychologically getting business travellers around here to choose LAS as a connection might be tougher.
"I think Western Canada has more in common with the Western US than it
does with its sister provinces back East."
Canada is built on a strongly east-west axis, and I think that's going a bit far. In my view the extent to which north-south ties exist, however, make me wonder why AC doesn't fly into North Dakota, Minneapolis (not from the west, only from YYZ currently), or Montana, they're as far as having things in common are more strongly linked than the southern states.
Superdawg From Canada, joined Jan 2000, 347 posts, RR: 1 Reply 12, posted (12 years 11 months 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 829 times:
Correct me if I am wrong but didn't Delta airlines used to offer daily service from YYC-LAS a few years back? I think it lasted only a year or so but I do remember seeing the ads in the Calgary Herald.
Johnboy From United States of America, joined Aug 1999, 2477 posts, RR: 1 Reply 13, posted (12 years 11 months 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 821 times:
Sorry, I didn't mean to malign the Canadian union. LOL I may have come off too strong in my statement when i didn't really mean it that way. I guess what i'm saying is that culturally, there's an East and there's a West, in both countries. One would think that the "ties" culturally would be stronger West to West, and naturally contacts would flow that way. Especially to Vegas.
I do agree with you in that AC should fly to more smaller cities in the Western US (from someplace other than Toronto/Montreal/Vancouver).
YWG777 From Canada, joined Oct 1999, 1264 posts, RR: 1 Reply 14, posted (12 years 11 months 3 days ago) and read 811 times:
I think all the western cities in Canada need a flight into LAS because of not just the gambling but the resorts and Golf courrses that really make LAS VEGAS a tourist hot spot. Why won't AC add flights to LAS from YUL,YWG,YYC,YEG, and YVR? YWG there are lots of people that fly into LAS. HP(America West) would do that route well from YWG because all their A320's get maintanced up here.
AC183 From Canada, joined Jul 1999, 1532 posts, RR: 2 Reply 18, posted (12 years 11 months 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 796 times:
To go into a bit of a rant, Johnboy, even though the routes have somewhat of a limited potential, I still believe AC should run flights from the west to Minneapolis, North Dakota, Montana, maybe Boise, and several other potential places. Even if they were just RJ's or 1900D's, the links are obvious. It's the hub mentality that bothers me: they protect YYZ as a hub, and fly routes like YYZ-MSP and even fly routes that are kind of obscure like YYZ-Akron or YYZ-Manchester NH, but ignore other O&D routes with good solid potential like YWG-MSP. And particularly for flights to Montana or North Dakota, they wouldn't even have to worry about customs because of preclearance facilities at YWG and YYC. So that's my rant. As to southwestern states, I'm glad to see people see potential in LAS, but I'm not fully convinced that Monday to Friday business traffic would work there, at least not yet-I see it as developing, but not necessarily ripe for picking yet. And of course west/west ties start becoming a little less obvious as the north/south distances increase, and Mexico or California look like larger, more lucrative and closer trade partners.
As for YWG777's comment that "AC/DL are going to be partnered soon. Meaning new routes comming out everywhere" - I disagree. AC doesn't have planes for that, and DL isn't likely to go into smaller centres on its own. The only routes likely to be affected will mostly be code-shares on transborder hub to hub routes, and on internal DL and AC routes to feed hubs. Remember that AC has already had to cut back on its planned expansion to MEX and DTW, as well as some other routes due to lack of aircraft and crews.
No YYC From Canada, joined Jul 2000, 73 posts, RR: 0 Reply 19, posted (12 years 11 months 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 795 times:
Okay, I'm partially convinced that scheduled service from YEG & YYC may not be financially feasible. Would anyone know how much of a margin the charter carriers make on this route. Are they guaranteed X amount of dollars by the tour operators regardless of whether the plane is full or not?
YWG777 From Canada, joined Oct 1999, 1264 posts, RR: 1 Reply 20, posted (12 years 11 months 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 788 times:
AC/DL are adding new routes siad the press release. DL will most like be flying into Canada except for the YYZ-ATL route. DL already flies into YYC,YVR,YUL,YYZ. DL will add there hub routes into the major canadian cities that DL does no9t serve now. Try figuring them out. Here are the DL hubs(ATL,CIN,DFW,SLC). The plan is to get to Canadian Gateway cities meaning the major ones to connect up to DL's hubs.
As for LAS is concerned will TS be adding a flight down there?