Kkfla737 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 1033 posts, RR: 1 Posted (7 years 3 months 1 week 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 4675 times:
With yesterday's announcement by Delta that they will be flying to Dakar and Johannesburg, I've been nostalgic about the old PA operation to Africa.
In 1977 Pan Am served Dakar, Monrovia, Abidjan, Accra, Lagos, Liberville, Kinsasha, Johannesburg and Nairobi. I think the African network was actually larger in the early 1970s.
By 1990 PA only served Nairobi.
Also where did TWA fly in Africa besides Cairo? I can only recall them flying to Cairo, and maybe to Casablanca at one point, but I'm sure they flew elsewhere also.
Quickmover From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 2464 posts, RR: 0 Reply 2, posted (7 years 3 months 1 week 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 4653 times:
In 1995 or 1996, TWA planned to start JFK-JNB 747 service. I believe this was before TWA 800. They never started it. I can't remember why, but could be the retirement of the 747 fleet.
Panamair From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 4584 posts, RR: 26 Reply 3, posted (7 years 3 months 1 week 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 4634 times:
Quoting Kkfla737 (Thread starter): In 1977 Pan Am served Dakar, Monrovia, Abidjan, Accra, Lagos, Liberville, Kinsasha, Johannesburg and Nairobi. I think the African network was actually larger in the early 1970s.
Douala, Cotonou, Dar Es Salaam, and Casablanca were also part of the network in the early 70s. Many of these places received only once or twice weekly services with multiple stops enroute. Looking back at a 1972 schedule, JFK-JNB was served twice a week, one with 3 stops enroute and the other with FIVE (5!) stops. Examples of schedules:
PA 184 JFK-Dakar-Monrovia-Accra-Lagos-Kinshasa-Johannesburg 707
PA 186 JFK-Dakar-Monrovia-Abidjan-Cotonou-Douala-Libreville 707
Eventually, by the '80s, PA was down to a twice weekly 747 flight from JFK to DKR, ROB, LOS, and NBO. Periodically, there was also a 747SP flight 3X weekly from JFK to JNB via ROB or Abidjan.
Cody From United States of America, joined May 1999, 1918 posts, RR: 10 Reply 4, posted (7 years 3 months 1 week 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 4559 times:
I think the last African destination served by TWA (besides Cairo) was Casablanca back around 1978. I believe they flew there from either Madrid or the Azores. Way way way back TWA flew to Tripoli, Beirut, Algeria, and a few other points. That was more like the 1950's though.
Malaysia From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 3185 posts, RR: 0 Reply 5, posted (7 years 3 months 1 week 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 4536 times:
Beirut was also Pan Am's hub in the Middle East.
There Are Those Who Believe That There May Yet Be Other Airlines Who Even Now Fight To Survive Beyond The Heavens
PanAm747 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 4242 posts, RR: 10 Reply 6, posted (7 years 3 months 1 week 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 4536 times:
In 1985, Pan Am flew JFK-Monrovia-JNB, and JFK-Dakar-Monrovia-Lagos-Nairobi. I remember that from an old timetable I foolishly threw away.
Rdwootty From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2005, 900 posts, RR: 2 Reply 7, posted (7 years 3 months 1 week 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 4530 times:
I must be an old man because I remember the Panam Stratocruiser in Accra . I believe that it flew from South Africa and then on to Azores on its way to Noo York. I went inside one day and thought the bunks were such a good idea . I was 9 at the time!!So the thought of "The mile High" club did not enter my mind. It also had a sumptuos bar on the lower deck
Jetdeltamsy From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 2984 posts, RR: 8 Reply 9, posted (7 years 3 months 1 week 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 4423 times:
Jmy007 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 591 posts, RR: 2 Reply 10, posted (7 years 3 months 1 week 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 4351 times:
Quoting Jetdeltamsy (Reply 9): Many years ago, TWA flew to NBO...in the 60's I think.
Clipper002 From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 671 posts, RR: 14 Reply 11, posted (7 years 3 months 1 week 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 4261 times:
Pan Am built most of the airports still operating in Africa and for years was the only carrier serving the entire continent. ROB was the African hub in those days with crew patterns that ran as long as 13 days. One of the station managers for Pan Am at Robert's Field is to this day employed at World Airways. The April 27, 1969 shows flights from JFK to RBA, DKR, ROB, ABJ, ACC, COO, LOS, ABJ, LEO, EBB, NBO, DAR and JNB. Quite a route system.
Kkfla737 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 1033 posts, RR: 1 Reply 13, posted (7 years 3 months 1 week 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 4088 times:
Quoting Dc863 (Reply 12): Teheran was the main hub for PA in the 1960s amd 70s leading up to the Iranian Rev.
Yup, a classic scissors hub with flights to Europe, the Middle East, India and Bangkok. I think PA's operation in that part of the world never recovered from losing Tehran as a base.
Texan From New Zealand, joined Dec 2003, 4204 posts, RR: 53 Reply 14, posted (7 years 3 months 1 week 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 4049 times:
Quoting Clipper002 (Reply 11): Pan Am built most of the airports still operating in Africa and for years was the only carrier serving the entire continent.
PA did build a large amount of airports on Africa's west coast, but it was Imperial Airways, the predecessor of BA, that really drove aviation in Africa at the beginning. Imperial operated two legs into Africa: one to LOS and one to CPT. The flight started at Croydon Field and continued to CDG-Brindisi-ATH-Alexandria-CAI-Assiut-Wadi Halfi-Atbara-Khartoum-Kosti-Malakal-Juba-Entebbe-Kisumu-NBO-Moshi-Dodoma-Mbeya-Mpeka-Broken Hill-Salisbury-Bulawayo-Pietersberg-JNB-Kimberly-Victoria West-CPT. That's right, the 26 stop, same plane service to CPT! Imperial had a route with almost as many stops from Croydon-SIN, which eventually was lengthened to include BNE and SYD as well! The flight to LOS was out of NBO via Kano and one other stop, just cannot find out exactly which stop.
In case anyone is interested, here is a map showing Imperial's African routes:
Texan
"I have always imagined that Paradise will be a kind of library."
Clipper002 From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 671 posts, RR: 14 Reply 15, posted (7 years 3 months 1 week 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 4048 times:
First of all, I don't see how the use of THR has anyhing to do with this thread. Secondly can the two of you elaborate about THR being a "hub" for Pan Am? The term "hub" wasn't even around in the 60's or the 70's. For that matter the only service that went through THR were the round the world flights ( 1 and 2), 3 times a week and flights 118 and 119, 3 times a week. The other 4 days, it terminated at BEY.
BOAC911 From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 445 posts, RR: 0 Reply 16, posted (7 years 3 months 1 week 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 4044 times:
Yes. TWA flew to Nairobi in the 60s and early 70s. It was either once or twice weekly, with 707 via Athens.
Kkfla737 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 1033 posts, RR: 1 Reply 17, posted (7 years 3 months 1 week 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 4032 times:
Ed- Maybe hub was the wrong term. PA had two flights crisscrossing at THR (which is why i used the term scissors hub) where you could easily connect from one to the other.Tehran. Looking at the Spring/Summer 1978 timetable, PA flew:
2 x/week Bangkok PA 2
4x/week Bombay PA 110
1x/week Damascus PA 111
5x/ week Delhi PA 2
Daily Frankfurt PA 1
6x/ week Istanbul PA 111
3x/ week Karachi PA 110
PA 1 continued on to London and JFK
PA 2 continued to Hong Kong and Tokyo
PA 110 terminated at Bombay or Karachi
PA 111 continued to Rome and JFK
BostonBeau From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 459 posts, RR: 0 Reply 18, posted (7 years 3 months 1 week 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 4030 times:
Back in the days of the B-707, TWA had authority to serve several North African cities: Algiers, Tunis, Tripoli, as well as Cairo. And also authority for several cities in East Africa: Nairobi, Dar Es Salam, Addis Ababa, Kampala, and I think even Khartoum. At one point, they were all on the route map, so they may have even been served.
Nomadic From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 398 posts, RR: 0 Reply 19, posted (7 years 3 months 1 week 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 4013 times:
Quoting BostonBeau (Reply 18): Back in the days of the B-707, TWA had authority to serve several North African cities: Algiers, Tunis, Tripoli, as well as Cairo. And also authority for several cities in East Africa: Nairobi, Dar Es Salam, Addis Ababa, Kampala, and I think even Khartoum. At one point, they were all on the route map, so they may have even been served.
TWA did operate to Entebe/Kampala, Nairobi & Dar Es Salam several times a week. I believe the flights may have originated at either Rome or Athens.
AirAmericaC46 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 590 posts, RR: 1 Reply 22, posted (7 years 3 months 1 week 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 3947 times:
Anybody knows all the PA propeller routes into Africa? routing, type of aircraft and year or decade of service. Thanks for the data.
TAN FLYR From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 1847 posts, RR: 0 Reply 23, posted (7 years 3 months 1 week 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 3812 times:
Just to take this in a slightly different direction...IF PA & TW had (like a lot of others) the escalation of fuel prices in 79 & 80 as well as other factors.and IF
they had ordered 757's to replace the fuel hungry 707's..one could wonder if some of that service would have survived longer at either or both carriers.
Panamair From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 4584 posts, RR: 26 Reply 24, posted (7 years 3 months 1 week 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 3793 times:
Quoting AirAmericaC46 (Reply 22): Anybody knows all the PA propeller routes into Africa? routing, type of aircraft and year or decade of service. Thanks for the data.
PA150 Thursdays:
NY-Santa Maria (Azores) - LIS - DKR - ROB - ACC - Leopoldville - JNB
25 Kkfla737: For a while, then it became JFK-CAI-RUH until AA operated TWA dropped the route after 9/11.
26 Texan: You are correct! Couldn't remember Le Bourget's name so just used CDG for Paris in general Thanks! Texan
27 Malaysia: Would TWA have been profitable on these routes if they used the 737NG back in the 60s?
28 TUNisia: With respect to TWA, they flew to Cairo until the end (2001) when AA AAxed the route, not just into the 1990s. TWA also flew to Tunisia (Tunis) among
30 Kkfla737: What sort of subsidies (if any) did TWA and Pan Am recieve to fly these routes?
31 SparkingWave: Pan Am didn't receive subsidies to fly these routes in Africa. In fact, they pulled out of many African markets because they were losing money. Sparki
32 Clipper002: The shedule at THR was never intended to be a connecting point between 4 Pan Am flights that served it. Those were the days of the O ad D market. BKK
34 Kkfla737: Ed- Did Nairobi remain profitable till the end? I know at one point it had fallen to once a week but was built back to 3 times a week. Or did PA just
36 Mkandiah: Even though I was about 9 when I flew on Pan Am into Paris from KHI, I'm pretty sure it was Orly not Le Bourget.
37 Skyguy: I flew JFK to LOS and LOS to NBO as a kid with my family in 1979 and 1980 on Pan Am. They used 747's on that route back then and it was a pretty unrel
38 Tom in NO: I'd be curious as to the scheduled departure and arrival times for those flights, and for the return flights, if you or someone could do the research
39 Bohica: I know for a fact that USAfrica operated IAD-SID-CPT/JNB. I don't think they ever served CAI. IIRC they were planning to start service out of EWR whe
40 Panamair: PA 184 Tuesdays only: Lv. JFK Tues 1900 Ar. DKR Wed 0635 Lv. DKR Wed 0730 Ar. ROB Wed 0925 Lv. ROB Wed 1030 Ar. ACC Wed 1210 Lv. ACC Wed 1255 Ar. LOS
41 Kellmark: I flew on that flight NY to J-Burg and back in 1972 on a B707. A very interesting trip. As I recall it took more then 24 hours to complete one way wi
42 Tom in NO: Thanks, Panamair for posting those times. Kellmark's next comment dovetails with what I was thinking after I read the actual schedule you posted: Quit
43 Bcal707: In March of 1976, my father and I flew Pan Am 707 JFK-DKR on the first leg of our journey to re-locate to Freetown, Sierra Leone, for an engineering p
44 Clipper002: Boy, those were the days. A very good friend of mine was the station manager in ROB during that time frame. He's currently with Wolrd working in Cargo
45 Panamair: Now you want the meal service info too? PA184: JFK-DKR 7:35 Dinner; Juice (that's what the schedule says); Movie DKR-ROB 1:55 Breakfast ROB-ACC 1:40
46 Tom in NO: PA 184.....dinner, breakfast, lunch, bar service, dinner, supper.....I'm all over that flight!!! I'm also impressed with the turnaround times on those
47 Clipper002: Actually the flights were known as the "African Queens", not the F/As. But these were very senior trips. Tom, ref the turn times, don't forget these w
48 Kkfla737: Considering PA served Nairobi until the route sale to Delta, is a maket present for another US airline to fly to NBO. Perhaps even a nonstop to Kenya?
49 Clipper002: The answer to your question is a resounding "No". There are simply not enough folks out there to warrent any type of non-stop much less direct service
50 RDYNYC: "Clipper002", Panamair is correct. I'm a former PA flight attendant. My good ole' friends use to be the F/A group who worked nothing but the Africa tr
51 Kkfla737: PA African destinations in 1974: Dakar Monrovia Contou Abidjan Accra Douala Kinshasa Nairobi Dar Es Salaam Casablanca Johannesburg Liberville Pretty a
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