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Pan Am/TWA To Africa  
User currently offlineKkfla737 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 1033 posts, RR: 1
Posted (8 years 10 months 1 week 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 6876 times:

With yesterday's announcement by Delta that they will be flying to Dakar and Johannesburg, I've been nostalgic about the old PA operation to Africa.

In 1977 Pan Am served Dakar, Monrovia, Abidjan, Accra, Lagos, Liberville, Kinsasha, Johannesburg and Nairobi. I think the African network was actually larger in the early 1970s.

By 1990 PA only served Nairobi.

Also where did TWA fly in Africa besides Cairo? I can only recall them flying to Cairo, and maybe to Casablanca at one point, but I'm sure they flew elsewhere also.

51 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineRwSEA From Netherlands, joined Jan 2005, 3134 posts, RR: 2
Reply 1, posted (8 years 10 months 1 week 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 6854 times:

With respect to Cairo, TWA served it into the 1990s. Delta also ran Cairo - JFK prior to 9/11 (the flight continued from Cairo to Dubai).

User currently offlineQuickmover From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 2500 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (8 years 10 months 1 week 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 6854 times:

In 1995 or 1996, TWA planned to start JFK-JNB 747 service. I believe this was before TWA 800. They never started it. I can't remember why, but could be the retirement of the 747 fleet.

I don't believe a L1011 could have made the trip.

[Edited 2006-02-10 19:28:04]

User currently offlinePanamair From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 4973 posts, RR: 25
Reply 3, posted (8 years 10 months 1 week 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 6835 times:
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Quoting Kkfla737 (Thread starter):
In 1977 Pan Am served Dakar, Monrovia, Abidjan, Accra, Lagos, Liberville, Kinsasha, Johannesburg and Nairobi. I think the African network was actually larger in the early 1970s.

Douala, Cotonou, Dar Es Salaam, and Casablanca were also part of the network in the early 70s. Many of these places received only once or twice weekly services with multiple stops enroute. Looking back at a 1972 schedule, JFK-JNB was served twice a week, one with 3 stops enroute and the other with FIVE (5!) stops. Examples of schedules:

PA 184 JFK-Dakar-Monrovia-Accra-Lagos-Kinshasa-Johannesburg 707
PA 186 JFK-Dakar-Monrovia-Abidjan-Cotonou-Douala-Libreville 707

Eventually, by the '80s, PA was down to a twice weekly 747 flight from JFK to DKR, ROB, LOS, and NBO. Periodically, there was also a 747SP flight 3X weekly from JFK to JNB via ROB or Abidjan.


User currently offlineCody From United States of America, joined May 1999, 1932 posts, RR: 9
Reply 4, posted (8 years 10 months 1 week 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 6760 times:

I think the last African destination served by TWA (besides Cairo) was Casablanca back around 1978. I believe they flew there from either Madrid or the Azores. Way way way back TWA flew to Tripoli, Beirut, Algeria, and a few other points. That was more like the 1950's though.

User currently offlineMalaysia From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 3377 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (8 years 10 months 1 week 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 6737 times:

Beirut was also Pan Am's hub in the Middle East.


There Are Those Who Believe That There May Yet Be Other Airlines Who Even Now Fight To Survive Beyond The Heavens
User currently offlinePanAm747 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 4242 posts, RR: 8
Reply 6, posted (8 years 10 months 1 week 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 6737 times:

In 1985, Pan Am flew JFK-Monrovia-JNB, and JFK-Dakar-Monrovia-Lagos-Nairobi. I remember that from an old timetable I foolishly threw away.

http://www.airchive.com

There are old timetables and routemaps available of Pan Am and TWA going WAY back - lots of fun!!



Pan Am:The World's Most Experienced Airline - P(oor) S(ailor's) A(irline): San Diego's Hometown Airline-Catch Our Smile!
User currently offlineRdwootty From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2005, 905 posts, RR: 2
Reply 7, posted (8 years 10 months 1 week 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 6731 times:

I must be an old man because I remember the Panam Stratocruiser in Accra . I believe that it flew from South Africa and then on to Azores on its way to Noo York. I went inside one day and thought the bunks were such a good idea . I was 9 at the time!!So the thought of "The mile High" club did not enter my mind. It also had a sumptuos bar on the lower deck

User currently offlineSoups From Ghana, joined Jun 2004, 3438 posts, RR: 14
Reply 8, posted (8 years 10 months 1 week 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 6650 times:

i recall in the early 90s in Accra, i notice a 3 engine plane (possibly L1011) with a US flag on the tail, white fuselage


Next destinations, Suarabaya, beirut, paris, Accra
User currently offlineJetdeltamsy From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 2987 posts, RR: 7
Reply 9, posted (8 years 10 months 1 week 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 6624 times:

Quoting Kkfla737 (Thread starter):
Also where did TWA fly in Africa besides Cairo?

Many years ago, TWA flew to NBO...in the 60's I think.



Tired of airline bankruptcies....EA/PA/TW and finally DL.
User currently offlineJmy007 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 598 posts, RR: 2
Reply 10, posted (8 years 10 months 1 week 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 6552 times:

Quoting Jetdeltamsy (Reply 9):
Many years ago, TWA flew to NBO...in the 60's I think.

Correct!
and well into the 1970's

take a look-
http://www.airchive.com/Timetables%2...aps/TWA%20Compressed/TWmap7306.jpg



Cookies are the Gateway pastry. They lead to Éclairs and Bear Claws.
User currently offlineClipper002 From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 680 posts, RR: 13
Reply 11, posted (8 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 6462 times:

Pan Am built most of the airports still operating in Africa and for years was the only carrier serving the entire continent. ROB was the African hub in those days with crew patterns that ran as long as 13 days. One of the station managers for Pan Am at Robert's Field is to this day employed at World Airways. The April 27, 1969 shows flights from JFK to RBA, DKR, ROB, ABJ, ACC, COO, LOS, ABJ, LEO, EBB, NBO, DAR and JNB. Quite a route system.

Rgds,

Ed



Ed
User currently offlineDc863 From Denmark, joined Jun 1999, 1558 posts, RR: 2
Reply 12, posted (8 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 6366 times:

Teheran was the main hub for PA in the 1960s amd 70s leading up to the Iranian Rev.

User currently offlineKkfla737 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 1033 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (8 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 6289 times:

Quoting Dc863 (Reply 12):
Teheran was the main hub for PA in the 1960s amd 70s leading up to the Iranian Rev.

Yup, a classic scissors hub with flights to Europe, the Middle East, India and Bangkok. I think PA's operation in that part of the world never recovered from losing Tehran as a base.


User currently offlineTexan From New Zealand, joined Dec 2003, 4287 posts, RR: 52
Reply 14, posted (8 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 6250 times:

Quoting Clipper002 (Reply 11):
Pan Am built most of the airports still operating in Africa and for years was the only carrier serving the entire continent.

PA did build a large amount of airports on Africa's west coast, but it was Imperial Airways, the predecessor of BA, that really drove aviation in Africa at the beginning. Imperial operated two legs into Africa: one to LOS and one to CPT. The flight started at Croydon Field and continued to CDG-Brindisi-ATH-Alexandria-CAI-Assiut-Wadi Halfi-Atbara-Khartoum-Kosti-Malakal-Juba-Entebbe-Kisumu-NBO-Moshi-Dodoma-Mbeya-Mpeka-Broken Hill-Salisbury-Bulawayo-Pietersberg-JNB-Kimberly-Victoria West-CPT. That's right, the 26 stop, same plane service to CPT! Imperial had a route with almost as many stops from Croydon-SIN, which eventually was lengthened to include BNE and SYD as well! The flight to LOS was out of NBO via Kano and one other stop, just cannot find out exactly which stop.

In case anyone is interested, here is a map showing Imperial's African routes:


Texan



"I have always imagined that Paradise will be a kind of library."
User currently offlineClipper002 From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 680 posts, RR: 13
Reply 15, posted (8 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 6249 times:

First of all, I don't see how the use of THR has anyhing to do with this thread. Secondly can the two of you elaborate about THR being a "hub" for Pan Am? The term "hub" wasn't even around in the 60's or the 70's. For that matter the only service that went through THR were the round the world flights ( 1 and 2), 3 times a week and flights 118 and 119, 3 times a week. The other 4 days, it terminated at BEY.

Thanks,
Ed



Ed
User currently offlineBOAC911 From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 454 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (8 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 6245 times:
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Yes. TWA flew to Nairobi in the 60s and early 70s. It was either once or twice weekly, with 707 via Athens.

The Casablanca service was usually via Lisbon.


User currently offlineKkfla737 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 1033 posts, RR: 1
Reply 17, posted (8 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 6233 times:

Ed- Maybe hub was the wrong term. PA had two flights crisscrossing at THR (which is why i used the term scissors hub) where you could easily connect from one to the other.Tehran. Looking at the Spring/Summer 1978 timetable, PA flew:



2 x/week Bangkok PA 2
4x/week Bombay PA 110
1x/week Damascus PA 111
5x/ week Delhi PA 2
Daily Frankfurt PA 1
6x/ week Istanbul PA 111
3x/ week Karachi PA 110

PA 1 continued on to London and JFK
PA 2 continued to Hong Kong and Tokyo
PA 110 terminated at Bombay or Karachi
PA 111 continued to Rome and JFK


User currently offlineBostonBeau From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 465 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (8 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 6231 times:

Back in the days of the B-707, TWA had authority to serve several North African cities: Algiers, Tunis, Tripoli, as well as Cairo. And also authority for several cities in East Africa: Nairobi, Dar Es Salam, Addis Ababa, Kampala, and I think even Khartoum. At one point, they were all on the route map, so they may have even been served.

User currently offlineNomadic From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 444 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (8 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 6214 times:

Quoting BostonBeau (Reply 18):
Back in the days of the B-707, TWA had authority to serve several North African cities: Algiers, Tunis, Tripoli, as well as Cairo. And also authority for several cities in East Africa: Nairobi, Dar Es Salam, Addis Ababa, Kampala, and I think even Khartoum. At one point, they were all on the route map, so they may have even been served.

TWA did operate to Entebe/Kampala, Nairobi & Dar Es Salam several times a week. I believe the flights may have originated at either Rome or Athens.


User currently offlineRootsAir From Costa Rica, joined Feb 2005, 4186 posts, RR: 40
Reply 20, posted (8 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 6202 times:

Quoting RwSEA (Reply 1):
With respect to Cairo, TWA served it into the 1990s.

Correct me if I'm wrong.... But it flew JFK-CDG-CAI.... right ?


There was also US Africa who flew IAD-CAI and to JNB from IAD or JFK... I saw them back in 1994 but I wonder when they ceased operations.


concerning ATL-DAK which is purely done as a stop over, does DL have 5th freedom rights between Senegal and South Africa ?

Regards

BM



A man without the knowledge of his past history,culture and origins is like a tree without roots
User currently offlineStirling From Italy, joined Jun 2004, 3943 posts, RR: 21
Reply 21, posted (8 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 6176 times:

Quoting Texan (Reply 14):
The flight started at Croydon Field and continued to CDG

Maybe LeBourget? I really don't know, but want to, its just that I am certain it wasn't CDG since it wasn't around in those days of Imperial....



Delete this User
User currently offlineAirAmericaC46 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 590 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (8 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 6148 times:

Anybody knows all the PA propeller routes into Africa? routing, type of aircraft and year or decade of service. Thanks for the data.

User currently offlineTAN FLYR From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 1920 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (8 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 6013 times:

Just to take this in a slightly different direction...IF PA & TW had (like a lot of others) the escalation of fuel prices in 79 & 80 as well as other factors.and IF
they had ordered 757's to replace the fuel hungry 707's..one could wonder if some of that service would have survived longer at either or both carriers.

Just a Saturday morning "what if" thought!  Smile


User currently offlinePanamair From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 4973 posts, RR: 25
Reply 24, posted (8 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 5994 times:
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Quoting AirAmericaC46 (Reply 22):
Anybody knows all the PA propeller routes into Africa? routing, type of aircraft and year or decade of service. Thanks for the data.

A February 1956 schedule shows the following:

PA150 Sundays:
NY-Santa Maria (Azores) - LIS - Leopoldville - JNB

PA150 Thursdays:
NY-Santa Maria (Azores) - LIS - DKR - ROB - ACC - Leopoldville - JNB


25 Kkfla737 : For a while, then it became JFK-CAI-RUH until AA operated TWA dropped the route after 9/11.
26 Post contains images Texan : You are correct! Couldn't remember Le Bourget's name so just used CDG for Paris in general Thanks! Texan
27 Post contains images Malaysia : Would TWA have been profitable on these routes if they used the 737NG back in the 60s?
28 TUNisia : With respect to TWA, they flew to Cairo until the end (2001) when AA AAxed the route, not just into the 1990s. TWA also flew to Tunisia (Tunis) among
29 Don0245 : TWA flew JFK ATH EBB NBO DAR.
30 Kkfla737 : What sort of subsidies (if any) did TWA and Pan Am recieve to fly these routes?
31 SparkingWave : Pan Am didn't receive subsidies to fly these routes in Africa. In fact, they pulled out of many African markets because they were losing money. Sparki
32 Clipper002 : The shedule at THR was never intended to be a connecting point between 4 Pan Am flights that served it. Those were the days of the O ad D market. BKK
33 Post contains images ETStar : Very Aeroflotesque, don't you think?
34 Kkfla737 : Ed- Did Nairobi remain profitable till the end? I know at one point it had fallen to once a week but was built back to 3 times a week. Or did PA just
35 Post contains images NW305 : TWA 1963
36 Mkandiah : Even though I was about 9 when I flew on Pan Am into Paris from KHI, I'm pretty sure it was Orly not Le Bourget.
37 Skyguy : I flew JFK to LOS and LOS to NBO as a kid with my family in 1979 and 1980 on Pan Am. They used 747's on that route back then and it was a pretty unrel
38 Tom in NO : I'd be curious as to the scheduled departure and arrival times for those flights, and for the return flights, if you or someone could do the research
39 Bohica : I know for a fact that USAfrica operated IAD-SID-CPT/JNB. I don't think they ever served CAI. IIRC they were planning to start service out of EWR whe
40 Panamair : PA 184 Tuesdays only: Lv. JFK Tues 1900 Ar. DKR Wed 0635 Lv. DKR Wed 0730 Ar. ROB Wed 0925 Lv. ROB Wed 1030 Ar. ACC Wed 1210 Lv. ACC Wed 1255 Ar. LOS
41 Kellmark : I flew on that flight NY to J-Burg and back in 1972 on a B707. A very interesting trip. As I recall it took more then 24 hours to complete one way wi
42 Tom in NO : Thanks, Panamair for posting those times. Kellmark's next comment dovetails with what I was thinking after I read the actual schedule you posted: Quit
43 Bcal707 : In March of 1976, my father and I flew Pan Am 707 JFK-DKR on the first leg of our journey to re-locate to Freetown, Sierra Leone, for an engineering p
44 Clipper002 : Boy, those were the days. A very good friend of mine was the station manager in ROB during that time frame. He's currently with Wolrd working in Cargo
45 Post contains images Panamair : Now you want the meal service info too? PA184: JFK-DKR 7:35 Dinner; Juice (that's what the schedule says); Movie DKR-ROB 1:55 Breakfast ROB-ACC 1:40
46 Tom in NO : PA 184.....dinner, breakfast, lunch, bar service, dinner, supper.....I'm all over that flight!!! I'm also impressed with the turnaround times on those
47 Clipper002 : Actually the flights were known as the "African Queens", not the F/As. But these were very senior trips. Tom, ref the turn times, don't forget these w
48 Kkfla737 : Considering PA served Nairobi until the route sale to Delta, is a maket present for another US airline to fly to NBO. Perhaps even a nonstop to Kenya?
49 Clipper002 : The answer to your question is a resounding "No". There are simply not enough folks out there to warrent any type of non-stop much less direct service
50 RDYNYC : "Clipper002", Panamair is correct. I'm a former PA flight attendant. My good ole' friends use to be the F/A group who worked nothing but the Africa tr
51 Kkfla737 : PA African destinations in 1974: Dakar Monrovia Contou Abidjan Accra Douala Kinshasa Nairobi Dar Es Salaam Casablanca Johannesburg Liberville Pretty a
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