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What Makes DL And Atlanta So Big In Pax #?  
User currently offlineAirCanada014 From Canada, joined Oct 2005, 1513 posts, RR: 0
Posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 5023 times:

Hello all


I was just wondering what makes Delta Airlines and Atlanta Harts Field so big in passenger volume? bigger than UA and ORD and AA and DFW. But then DL is not in the greatest conditions right now regarding bankruptcy protections, pilots might go on strike. What is the secret to get so much volume of pax on plane and at the airport.

21 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineSrbmod From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 5001 times:

Location Location Location...........

ATL sits in a very good area geographically and has also been an important transportation hub since before the Civil War. The airport has been one of the busiest in the US since the late 1930s.

Delta grew in Atlanta due to the collapse of Eastern in 1991. Prior to that, both airlines were of similar size and had around the same marketshare. DL grew very fast @ ATL during the next 5 years and most attempts by other airlines to establish any sort of hub operations @ ATL were met by failure (TWA, Air South, Kiwi International, Private Jet). When Eastern folded, a third of their gates were taken over by Delta, eventually two-thirds when you throw in ASA's takeover of part of C.


User currently offlineDLPMMM From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 3602 posts, RR: 10
Reply 2, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 4980 times:

For your information, it is Hartsfield/Jackson International Airport... Not Harts Field.

To answer your question, Geography!!

Atlanta is hub geographically well situated to connect the notheast and the southeast. The 2 biggest air travel markets in the USA.

I it also well positioned to serve the southeast to most all points west.

Atlanta Hartsfield/Jackson International Airport is also probably the most logically efficient airport ever designed in terms of layout for a hub and spoke type airport.


User currently offlineAirCanada014 From Canada, joined Oct 2005, 1513 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 4968 times:

Quoting DLPMMM (Reply 2):
For your information, it is Hartsfield/Jackson International Airport... Not Harts Field.

Oops your right sorry about that. I couldn't remember exactly. Yeah I guess the geographically is very good. Who is the 2nd largest airline in terms of passenger volume carried?


User currently offlineDalb777 From United States of America, joined May 2005, 2192 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 4957 times:

Quoting AirCanada014 (Reply 3):
Who is the 2nd largest airline in terms of passenger volume carried?

In ATL? Probably AirTran.



Geaux Tigers! Geaux Hornets! Geaux Saints! WHO DAT!!!
User currently offlineKkfla737 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 1033 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 4950 times:

Quoting Srbmod (Reply 1):

Delta grew in Atlanta due to the collapse of Eastern in 1991. Prior to that, both airlines were of similar size and had around the same marketshare.

I think Delta finally caught up with EA at ATL around 1987 or so, but prior to that I am almost positive EA had a slightly larger marketshare even though Delta was the hometown airline and EA was based in Miami, where it operated a smaller hub.

It's interesting that when Frank Lorenzo drove EA into bankrupcy, some of his leadership at Texas Air felt EA should dump the Atlanta hub and focus on north-south flying and int'l routes. Lorenzo rejected that suggestion, instead selling off the Miami hub, Latin American operation, and most of the slots EA owned at LGA, DCA and ORD. Lorenzo was convinced EA could fight a one front war against DL with a lower (non-union) cost structure at ATL and win.

But the point is Atlanta's location meant that it was the ideal hub and that EA was willing to dump the rest of the airline to stay in Atlanta, something that may end up happening to DL sooner or later if things don't change. (DL's current JFK operation is somewhat similar to EA's Miami hub which was largely based around int'l traffic.)


User currently offlineAlitalia744 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 4764 posts, RR: 44
Reply 6, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 4871 times:

Quoting DLPMMM (Reply 2):
For your information, it is Hartsfield/Jackson International Airport... Not Harts Field.

If you're goin to nitpick on proper name/spelling, than PLEASE nitpick the below first for god sakes...

Quoting AirCanada014 (Thread starter):
Delta Airlines

it's Delta Air Lines.



Some see lines, others see between the lines.
User currently offlineCkfred From United States of America, joined Apr 2001, 5311 posts, RR: 1
Reply 7, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 4746 times:

There is a saying that whether you're going to heaven or hell, you have to change planes in Atlanta.

Although there are people who credit Bob Crandall of AA with creating the hub-and-spoke system, it was really Delta.

Back in the 1970s, Delta had their first arrivals in Atlanta from small cities across the Southest timed that so a passenger could be at any Delta city east of the Mississippi for a late breakfast meeing, and any city in the entire system for lunch.

Thus, someone leaving Athens, GA at 6 am could be in downtown Chicago by 9:30 am or downtown San Francisco by 11:15 am.

One other thing to remember is that Delta kept flying widebodies on domestic routes out of ATL long after the other major carriers put their widebodies on trans-con and international flights.

In the late 90s, DL was still flying L-1011s and 767s between ORD and ATL.


User currently offlineSESGDL From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 3489 posts, RR: 10
Reply 8, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 4699 times:

Quoting Kkfla737 (Reply 5):
I think Delta finally caught up with EA at ATL around 1987 or so, but prior to that I am almost positive EA had a slightly larger marketshare even though Delta was the hometown airline and EA was based in Miami, where it operated a smaller hub.

Nope. DL has always been the largest airline in ATL. In 1983, when the new terminal was built (I believe), DL had 335 daily departures to EA's 240; at this time DL's hub at ATL was already the single largest airline hub in the world. After the demise of EA, DL grew even further and built the hub substantially.

Jeremy


User currently offlineDAL767400ER From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 4500 times:

Another thing to factor in when looking at its size is the whole airport layout:
2 sets of parallel runways, allowing 4 parallel movements, with the whole terminal complex in between, with easily the most simple terminal/concourse layout of all large airports out there (though people still manage to get lost there  Yeah sure ).


User currently offlineOttoPylit From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 4467 times:

Quoting DLPMMM (Reply 2):
For your information, it is Hartsfield/Jackson International Airport... Not Harts Field.

For your information, it should be Atlanta Hartsfield International Airport. If your from ATL, you would know how the mayor went beyond her abilities to force Jackson's name onto the airport, against the wishes of the airport and the airport committee that SHE formed to solve the dispute. Not to mention the fact that she dishonored Mayor Hartsfield's legacy in the city and at the airport that he basically created from scratch just so appease Jackson's widow. And they say Atlanta is too busy to hate. Ha!!!

But other than that:

Quoting DLPMMM (Reply 2):
Atlanta Hartsfield/Jackson International Airport is also probably the most logically efficient airport ever designed in terms of layout for a hub and spoke type airport.

Your right on the money!

Quoting Ckfred (Reply 7):
Although there are people who credit Bob Crandall of AA with creating the hub-and-spoke system, it was really Delta.

Back in the 1970s, Delta had their first arrivals in Atlanta from small cities across the Southest timed that so a passenger could be at any Delta city east of the Mississippi for a late breakfast meeing, and any city in the entire system for lunch.

Actually, didn't Delta start the hub-and-spoke system in the late 50's? I could be wrong on that, but I'm almost sure it was earlier than the 70's.


Another thing which makes Delta so large is their successful use of widebodies. They can use widebodies on many routes that other airlines cannot. And fill them up, not just to MCO either. Delta is a Southern airline with a large Southern following, so if your from the Southeast, at least 1 out of every 3 will choose Delta from loyalty, just as the people of the midwest would choose UA or NW and just as the people of the great state of Texas choose AA.



OttoPylit


User currently offlineKkfla737 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 1033 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 4426 times:

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 10):
Delta is a Southern airline with a large Southern following, so if your from the Southeast, at least 1 out of every 3 will choose Delta from loyalty, just as the people of the midwest would choose UA or NW and just as the people of the great state of Texas choose AA.

Exactly. That's why when I was in India and was explaining to the folks there why I think the Indian aviation boom will turn into a bust, because all the airlines are focusing on the same routes and markets, I cited that traditionally in the US while we have national carriers, each carrier had a strong region. In fact AA was more of a Northeastern and Midwestern carrier large at Chicago and New York prior to invanding Dallas in the 1970s, Delta has always been strong in the south and after 1972 in the NE as well, and Northwest has always been more or less a strong carrier in upper midwest and across the pacific. Eastern was the largest airline in the free world in the early 1980s but was yet a purely regional carrier, something that contributed to its ultimate downfall. Delta will always have a market base because of the loyalty of Southern passengers. period.


User currently offlineLightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13551 posts, RR: 100
Reply 12, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 4401 times:
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Quoting Srbmod (Reply 1):

ATL sits in a very good area geographically and has also been an important transportation hub since before the Civil War. The airport has been one of the busiest in the US since the late 1930s.

Best note of the whole thread.

Note that most of the big hubs are located near early railroad hubs or historical major ports.  Smile There are very few exceptions, but not many.

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlineMD-90 From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 8508 posts, RR: 12
Reply 13, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 4354 times:

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 10):
Delta is a Southern airline with a large Southern following, so if your from the Southeast, at least 1 out of every 3 will choose Delta from loyalty,

Also because it's the most convenient.


And while ATL is efficiently laid out, would it have killed them to add a few more windows to the terminals?

And Atlanta historically was the Chicago of the east, where several important railroad lines converged. That's the biggest reason why Atlanta was expressly targeted by the North in the Civil War.


User currently offlineAtmx2000 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 4576 posts, RR: 37
Reply 14, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 4260 times:

Quoting MD-90 (Reply 13):
And Atlanta historically was the Chicago of the east, where several important railroad lines converged. That's the biggest reason why Atlanta was expressly targeted by the North in the Civil War.

Also there are no other cities as large as Atlanta anywhere nearby in all directions, making it a natural center of commercial activity in the Southeastern US and a logical location for hub operations.



ConcordeBoy is a twin supremacist!! He supports quadicide!!
User currently offlineSoundsfishy From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 27 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 4204 times:

Quoting DLPMMM (Reply 2):

Atlanta Hartsfield/Jackson International Airport is also probably the most logically efficient airport ever designed in terms of layout for a hub and spoke type airport.

You could make an argument that PIT (in its heydey, not the hallowed shell that remains today) is probably more efficient. No silly trains (except for O&D), quick transfers and short walks, and great shopping. Despite a snowy location, US used to have very smooth ops through PIT.

If I recall, PIT and MCO regularly got rated the best airports in the country, but of course MCO is almost all O&D.


User currently offlineSrbmod From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 4200 times:

Quoting MD-90 (Reply 13):


And while ATL is efficiently laid out, would it have killed them to add a few more windows to the terminals?

You have to remember the airport was designed in the 1970s, so things were designed along lines of the typical 70s industrial design. Simplicity rules the design, and also allowed easier redesigns of the interior spaces (adding/removing gates, waiting areas, retail spaces, offices) to best suit the concourse. This is why there is not a lot of windows in many areas.


User currently offlineOldAeroGuy From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 3605 posts, RR: 66
Reply 17, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 4155 times:

Quoting Srbmod (Reply 1):
ATL sits in a very good area geographically and has also been an important transportation hub since before the Civil War. The airport has been one of the busiest in the US since the late 1930s.



Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 10):
Actually, didn't Delta start the hub-and-spoke system in the late 50's? I could be wrong on that, but I'm almost sure it was earlier than the 70's.



Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 10):
Delta is a Southern airline with a large Southern following, so if your from the Southeast, at least 1 out of every 3 will choose Delta from loyalty, just as the people of the midwest would choose UA or NW and just as the people of the great state of Texas choose AA.

As we Southerners of a certain age say, "When you die, it doesn't matter if you're going to Heaven or Hell, you still have to change planes in Atlanta".



Airplane design is easy, the difficulty is getting them to fly - Barnes Wallis
User currently offlineNW305 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 4075 times:

Here are the routes from Atlanta for Delta and Eastern in 1977, the last year before the deregulation act of 1978

DELTA AND EASTERN ATLANTA SERVICE JUNE 1977

DELTA (SERVICE TO 46 AIRPORTS)

AUGUSTA,GA 8
BALTIMORE,MD 6
BATON ROUGE,LA 3
BIRMINGHAM,AL 8
BOSTON,MA 5
CHARLESTON,SC 5
CHARLOTTE,NC 7
CHATTANOOGA,TN 8
CHICAGO,IL 7
CINCINNATI,OH 7
COLUMBIA,SC 8
COLUMBUS,GA 6
COLUMBUS,OH 4
DALLAS/FTWORTH,TX 9
DAYTON,OH 6
DETROIT,MI 4
FT LAUDERDALE,FL 7
HOUSTON,TX 6
INDIANAPOLIS,IN 4
JACKSON,MS 4
JACKSONVILLE,FL 7
KANSAS CITY,MO 3
KNOXVILLE,TN 6
LAS VEGAS,NV 1
LEXINGTON,KY 3
LOS ANGELES,CA 4
LOUISVILLE,KY 6
MACON,GA 4
MEMPHIS,TN 7
MERIDIAN,MS 1
MIAMI,FL 7
MONROE,LA 1
MONTGOMERY,AL 8
NEW ORLEANS,LA 8
NEWARK,NJ 4
KENNEDY IAP,NY 3
LA GUARDIA, NY 6
ORLANDO,FL 7
PHILADELPHIA,PA 7
SAN DIEGO,CA 1
SAN FRANCISCO, CA 4
SAVANNAH,GA 7
SHREVEPORT,LA 2
TAMPA,FL 8
WASH/NATIONAL 8
WEST PALM BEACH,FL 5

EASTERN (SERIVCE TO 54 AIRPORTS)

BALTIMORE,MD 6
BIRMINGHAM,AL 6
BOSTON,MA 5
BUFFALO,NY 3
CHARLOTTE,NC 8
CHATTANOOGA,TN 1
CHICAGO,IL 8
COLUMBUS,GA 4
CORPUS CHRISTI,TX 1
DALLAS/FTWORTH,TX 6
DAYTONA BEACH,FL 6
EVANSVILLE,IN 1
FT LAUDERDALE,FL 5
FT MEYERS,FL 6
GAINESVILLE,FL 4
GREENSBORO,NC 6
GREENVILLE/SPARTANBURG,SC 6
HARTFORD,CT 4
HOUSTON,TX 7
INDIANAPOLIS,IN 5
JACKSONVILLE,FL 8
LOS ANGELES,CA 3
LOUSIVILLE,KY 4
MACON,GA 3
MELBOURNE,FL 4
MEMPHIS,TN 5
MEXICO CITY, MEXICO 2
MIAMI, FL 7
MILWAUKEE,WS 3
MINNEAPOLIS,MN 4
MOBILE, AL 4
MONTEGO BAY, JAMAICA 1
MONTGOMERY,AL 5
NASHVILLE,TN 6
NEW ORLEANS,LA 5
NEWARK,NJ 3
LA GUARDIA,NY 5
KENNEDY, NY 3
ORLANDO,FL 7
PENSACOLA,FL 5
PHILADELPHIA,PA 8
PITTSBURGH,PA 5
PROVIDENCE,RI 2
RALIEGH/DURHAM,NC 8
RICHMOND,VA 5
ST.LOUIS,MO 7
SAN ANTONIO,TX 4
SAN JUAN, PUERTO RICO 2
SARASOTA,FL 6
SYRACUSE,NY 3
TALLAHASSEE,FL 5
TAMPA,FL 7
WASH/NATIONAL 5
WEST PALM BEACH,FL 5


User currently offlineJumpseat70 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 4024 times:

Having CNN and Coke in Atlanta doesn't hurt either, along with a few thousand other large corporate accounts that Delta controls.

User currently offlineN1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26815 posts, RR: 75
Reply 20, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 4012 times:

Quoting DLPMMM (Reply 2):
Atlanta is hub geographically well situated to connect the notheast and the southeast. The 2 biggest air travel markets in the USA.

Um, I think the California Corridor would like to have a word with you

Quoting MD-90 (Reply 13):
And Atlanta historically was the Chicago of the east, where several important railroad lines converged. That's the biggest reason why Atlanta was expressly targeted by the North in the Civil War.

Actually, New Orleans holds at least as much railroad importance as Atlanta



Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
User currently offlineSrbmod From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 3995 times:

Quoting N1120A (Reply 20):
Actually, New Orleans holds at least as much railroad importance as Atlanta

Atlanta also had important manufacturing facilities for the Confederate Army during the Civil War, which was also one of the reasons why it was targeted. New Orleans was and still is an important port city (The only city that more coffee beans and tea leaves come through is New York City), but the railroad has not played as much of a role like it has in Atlanta. New Orleans has relied on boats more than anything. The Mississippi River is why New Orleans is where it is. The fact that via the Mississippi River and it's tributaries, a large number of cities can be accessed. The railroads helped with the transit of goods out of New Orleans, but where did most of those trains end up at? Atlanta.


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