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QR Reopens Widebody Contest  
User currently offlineLeelaw From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (8 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 8429 times:

The electronic edition of this week's Flight International (02/14/06) is reporting that QR is re-evaluating proposed enhanced versions of A345/A346 (recently rejected by CX), despite the announcement last year of a 20 aircraft order for the 773ER/772LR. The CEO says there was never a LOI for the Boeing order, "...now there is competition between the two. Both Airbus and Boeing are able to deliver these aircraft in the timeframe we want - by the end of next year..."

Additionally, QR is ready to firm up its commitments for 60 A350s, but is waiting for Airbus to finalize several aspects of the aircraft's design and performance.

[Edited 2006-02-13 10:16:17]

[Edited 2006-02-13 10:33:07]

52 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinePM From Germany, joined Feb 2005, 6869 posts, RR: 63
Reply 1, posted (8 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days ago) and read 8403 times:

How strange. I somehow had a premonition this was going to happen. Airbus need to win some new business for the A340; QR already have 4 A346s on order (which would be "lost" among a bigger 777 order); QR seem to be pretty happy with Airbus...

At the very least, QR are very cannily using an improved A340 to put pressure on Boeing. If an order for 777s still happens (and I certainly wouldn't rule it out) QR will probably have bought themselves a better deal.

Is this now the first big nail-biter of the year?

('Bout time; it's been pretty dull so far!)


User currently offlineZvezda From Lithuania, joined Aug 2004, 10511 posts, RR: 64
Reply 2, posted (8 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days ago) and read 8385 times:

Quoting PM (Reply 1):

Is this now the first big nail-biter of the year?

I think the expected SQ order was the big nail-biter that welcomed the new year.

I suspect QR are putting pressure now on both Airbus and Boeing, though it does seem a bit sleazy on QR's part.


User currently offlineManni From South Korea, joined Nov 2001, 4221 posts, RR: 23
Reply 3, posted (8 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days ago) and read 8318 times:

How ironic. After countless posts were the pending A350 order has been put in doubt in favor of the 787, it's the 777 order that might not be firmed up.


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User currently offlineOyKIE From Norway, joined Jan 2006, 2727 posts, RR: 4
Reply 4, posted (8 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days ago) and read 8306 times:

Quoting Leelaw (Thread starter):
is reporting that QR is re-evaluating proposed enhanced versions of A345/A346



Quoting Leelaw (Thread starter):
Both Airbus and Boeing are able to deliver these aircraft in the timeframe we want - by the end of next year...

With that timefame I would believe this enhanced version is a A340-600HGW version. It would be more interesting if QR opted for the rumored A340-600E.

Maybe this is the Leahy payback deal which make the A340 interesting?



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User currently offlineLeelaw From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (8 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days ago) and read 8273 times:

Quoting Manni (Reply 3):
How ironic. After countless posts were the pending A350 order has been put in doubt in favor of the 787, it's the 777 order that might not be firmed up.

At this point, the OEMs should take anything they receive from QR short of a signed contract, with a grain of salt.


User currently offlineTifoso From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 440 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (8 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days ago) and read 8260 times:

Quoting OyKIE (Reply 4):
With that timefame I would believe this enhanced version is a A340-600HGW version. It would be more interesting if QR opted for the rumored A340-600E.

From my understanding, the A346HGW was to become the standard model once it entered service, i.e. all the A346s delivered would be A346HGWs. Therefore any discussion about an enhanced A346 would have to revolve around the A346E.

It seems like Airbus is offering an enhanced A345 as well.

The timeframes don't seem to make sense though.  confused 

[Edited 2006-02-13 11:18:12]

User currently offlineLeelaw From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (8 years 5 months 2 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 8223 times:

Quoting Tifoso (Reply 6):
Quoting OyKIE (Reply 4):
With that timefame I would believe this enhanced version is a A340-600HGW version. It would be more interesting if QR opted for the rumored A340-600E.

From my understanding, the A346HGW was to become the standard model once it entered service, i.e. all the A346s delivered would be A346HGWs. Therefore any discussion about an enhanced A346 would have to revolve around the A346E.

It seems like Airbus is offering an enhanced A345 as well.

The timeframes don't seem to make sense though.

From article:

"...[QR] is believed to now be evaluating the enhanced version of A340-600 being proposed by Airbus. This new model, which Boeing says Airbus unsuccessfully pitched against the 777 in Cathay Pacific's recent widebody competition, incorporates various improvements, including Rolls Royce-Trent 1000-technology engines."

[Edited 2006-02-13 11:37:28]

User currently offlineWINGS From Portugal, joined May 2005, 2831 posts, RR: 68
Reply 8, posted (8 years 5 months 2 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 8217 times:

Quoting Leelaw (Thread starter):
The electronic edition of this week's Flight International (02/14/06) is reporting that QR is re-evaluating proposed enhanced versions of A345/A346 (recently rejected by CX), despite the announcement last year of a 20 aircraft order

Very interesting update regarding QR order.

Quoting Leelaw (Thread starter):
Both Airbus and Boeing are able to deliver these aircraft in the timeframe we want - by the end of next year..."

Very interesting also. I believe that they are refering to the A340-600HGW.

Quoting Leelaw (Thread starter):
Additionally, QR is ready to firm up its commitments for 60 A350s, but is waiting for Airbus to finalize several aspects of the aircraft's design and performance.

Just as I thought. I would expect a firm order as soon as Airbus freezes the A350 design.

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 2):
I suspect QR are putting pressure now on both Airbus and Boeing, though it does seem a bit sleazy on QR's part.

Yes a bit sleazy. But thats business. QR has to keep all options open.

Quoting Manni (Reply 3):
How ironic. After countless posts were the pending A350 order has been put in doubt in favor of the 787, it's the 777 order that might not be firmed up.

Very ironic indeed.

Quoting OyKIE (Reply 4):
With that timefame I would believe this enhanced version is a A340-600HGW version. It would be more interesting if QR opted for the rumored A340-600E.

Well I would expect an A340HGW + an A340E order. The A340HGW may be a stop gap measure until the A340E arrives.

Regards,
Wings



Aviation Is A Passion.
User currently offlineDalecary From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (8 years 5 months 2 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 8132 times:

Not forgetting that QR also had refundable deposits on 787s with Boeing. Looks like Boeing has trouble doing business with QR.
Maybe( and this is pure guesswork) EK is favouring the 787 and Airbus are desperate for a large Middle East A340/350 commitment. They certainly need a good 340 order after the thrashing the poor thing took in 2005.


User currently offlineTifoso From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 440 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (8 years 5 months 2 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 8117 times:

Quoting Dalecary (Reply 9):
Not forgetting that QR also had refundable deposits on 787s with Boeing. Looks like Boeing has trouble doing business with QR.

Weren't those cancelled when QR chose the A350, and offered to QF instead?


User currently offlineRJ111 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (8 years 5 months 2 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 8086 times:

As i opened this thread i expected it to be speculation about the A350 commitment, but to my suprise they are looking at the A340E.

In many ways it would make sense, as it would have engine and i would assume (yes the mother of all...) reasonable structural commonality with the A350, and of course, cockpit.


User currently offlineTrex8 From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 4696 posts, RR: 14
Reply 12, posted (8 years 5 months 2 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 7963 times:
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Quoting Leelaw (Reply 5):
At this point, the OEMs should take anything they receive from QR short of a signed contract, with a grain of salt.

any OEM which doesn't operate on the basis of no signed contract no nothing is crazy.


User currently offlineZvezda From Lithuania, joined Aug 2004, 10511 posts, RR: 64
Reply 13, posted (8 years 5 months 2 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 7888 times:

Quoting Trex8 (Reply 12):
any OEM which doesn't operate on the basis of no signed contract no nothing is crazy.

However, delivery slots have to be assigned before contracts are signed.


User currently offlineTrex8 From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 4696 posts, RR: 14
Reply 14, posted (8 years 5 months 2 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 7696 times:
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can RR really get an upgraded Trent 500 ready in any "enhanced " version in time for the QR timeline??
I was thumbing thorugh the FI article last May about the A345/6 in service experience. I was confused somewhat about the Trent 500 blade rubbing problems, in one part of the article they say there have been no IFSD from this problem, in another they say LH had 3 unscheduled removals. I guess both could be accurate. Anyone know of any other operators having problems?

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 13):
However, delivery slots have to be assigned before contracts are signed.

presumably these are only with some form of deposit or other legally binding paperwork otherwise its all on a handshake and while that happens a lot, you can get burned big time


User currently offlineFlying-Tiger From Germany, joined Aug 1999, 4160 posts, RR: 36
Reply 15, posted (8 years 5 months 2 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 7676 times:

We are NOT talking about any upgraded RR Trent 500 but about employing the new RR Trent 1000, which is under development for the A350 and B787, on the A340-500/600.


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User currently offlinePM From Germany, joined Feb 2005, 6869 posts, RR: 63
Reply 16, posted (8 years 5 months 2 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 7609 times:

Quoting RJ111 (Reply 11):
In many ways it would make sense, as it would have engine and i would assume (yes the mother of all...) reasonable structural commonality with the A350, and of course, cockpit.

Engine commonality? Qatar are going for the GEnx on their A350s whereas the new (old?) A340s will certainly have RR but only "might" have GE. And Qatar already have Trents on the existing A346s they've ordered. I can't see engine commonality being a factor here.


User currently offlineTrex8 From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 4696 posts, RR: 14
Reply 17, posted (8 years 5 months 2 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 7598 times:
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Quoting Flying-Tiger (Reply 15):
We are NOT talking about any upgraded RR Trent 500 but about employing the new RR Trent 1000, which is under development for the A350 and B787, on the A340-500/600.

the original reports of an enhanced A345/6 were Trent 500s incorporating Trent 1000 technology, using the 1000 core with the 500 fan, to put the Trent 1000 itself on the wing may be problematic due to the size of the larger fan.


User currently offlineLeelaw From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (8 years 5 months 2 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 7598 times:

Quoting WINGS (Reply 8):
Quoting Zvezda (Reply 2):
I suspect QR are putting pressure now on both Airbus and Boeing, though it does seem a bit sleazy on QR's part.

Yes a bit sleazy. But thats business. QR has to keep all options open.

You'd likely be among those crying foul should QR decide to handle its "commitment" for the A350 in a similar manner in the future.  Wink Seems to me like QR may be setting the stage for such a move according to a quote in the FI article:

"...We have not signed a purchase agreement with Airbus because it hasn't crystallised the specifications of the aircraft [A350] and also we have requirements for the performance which they have to come back to us with", said Akbar Al Baker [QR's CEO]. The aircraft is still changing, but we expect Airbus to come up with the solution soon."

Sounds a little weasily to me.

Caveat Vendor, including Airbus, QR's order commitment for the A350 may be as ephemeral as that for the 777s.


User currently offlineWINGS From Portugal, joined May 2005, 2831 posts, RR: 68
Reply 19, posted (8 years 5 months 2 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 7548 times:

Quoting PM (Reply 16):
Engine commonality? Qatar are going for the GEnx on their A350s whereas the new (old?) A340s will certainly have RR but only "might" have GE. And Qatar already have Trents on the existing A346s they've ordered. I can't see engine commonality being a factor here.

I have also read the GE might also jump onboard the A340E. Its going to be interesting to see what comes of this.

Regards,
Wings



Aviation Is A Passion.
User currently offlineRJ111 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (8 years 5 months 2 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 7409 times:

Quoting PM (Reply 16):
Engine commonality? Qatar are going for the GEnx on their A350s whereas the new (old?) A340s will certainly have RR but only "might" have GE.

Beg your pardon, i didn't realise they had already selected the engines. How firm is that?

I agree the A340E will probably not get GE onboard. Infact i'd guess RR would probably want an exclusivity contract.


User currently offlineCruiser From Canada, joined Apr 2005, 1001 posts, RR: 7
Reply 21, posted (8 years 5 months 2 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 7362 times:

I cannot help but remember what Robert Milton said a week before the AC order... "I have a penchant for the A340"

We all know what happened a week later. This could all be smoke and mirrors...but that said, this could also be Airbus's first foray into offering incentives to get QR to buy the A340 and make it competitive once again.

James



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User currently offlineAndesSMF From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (8 years 5 months 2 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 7322 times:

Quoting PM (Reply 1):
cannily using an improved A340

hmmm, third time is the charm??

That's not a good track record.


User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21474 posts, RR: 60
Reply 23, posted (8 years 5 months 2 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 7305 times:

All this really does is allow Boeing to put those 777 slots with other more dependable carriers. B has no shortage of 777 customers at this point, and is working to win more orders from SQ and BA as well as new orders from other carriers. If QR are going to play the "a contract is just the starting point" game so common in the middle east, it might be a good strategy to offer QR a low, but not too low figure that Airbus would be forced to beat, then let Airbus be the ones to make no money on their jets.


Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineZvezda From Lithuania, joined Aug 2004, 10511 posts, RR: 64
Reply 24, posted (8 years 5 months 2 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 7274 times:

Quoting Flying-Tiger (Reply 15):
We are NOT talking about any upgraded RR Trent 500 but about employing the new RR Trent 1000, which is under development for the A350 and B787, on the A340-500/600.

Do you have a source for that? It doesn't make any sense to me to add that much thrust, weight, and fuel consumption. I think RR will be upgrading the Trent 500 with technology from the Trent 1000.


25 Atmx2000 : It might be in Boeing's best interest to let Airbus burn some money on an A340E that won't be available until 2012.
26 Ikramerica : I agree. Let Airbus focus on winning this 'lucrative' QR contract and focus instead on winning SQ, BA, QF round 2, and getting the 797 to market.
27 Post contains links PM : Pretty firm, I think: http://www.geae.com/aboutgeae/presscenter/genx/genx_20050914.html "September 14, 2005 -- EVENDALE, Ohio - Qatar Airways have si
28 Post contains images Lumberton : Concur. I see this as a very public attempt to squeeze Boeing on price. Those delivery slots won't go begging for long. I seem to remember Widebodyph
29 PlaneDane : I don't remember "countless posts" claiming that the A350 order was in doubt, Manni, and I don't think you really do either. These orders will go to
30 Nimish : Weasily? Asking for clear specs and targets for an aircraft you're going to base your entire future on - that's hardly weasily. Sounds like basic bus
31 Ikramerica : What Manni may be referring to was the truthful insistence by many that the LOI (which we have now learned was just a PR stunt), was for AT LEAST 20
32 N79969 : Sucks for Boeing if they cancel the B777 orders. I wonder what their selection criteria area could be...
33 Scbriml : You can't cancel an order that hasn't actually been placed yet.
34 Trex8 : sorta like BR with A345/6 and then going for 772LR??
35 Scbriml : I said unusual, not that it never happens.
36 OldAeroGuy : This would seem to be unlikely as GE is a risk-sharing partner on the 777LR. Why would they want to compete with themselves?
37 PM : if (IF!) GE believe than an improved A340 will take business from the 777 then why wouldn't they want to get a share of the extra business? The A350
38 Shenzhen : Sounds to me that Qatar are a little mixed up on the cycle. The down cycle is over, therefore it is a sellers market. Probably losing more money each
39 Post contains images Zvezda : Great point! So is the B767, for exactly the same reasons.
40 Leelaw : A letter of intent (LOI) is customarily employed to reduce to writing a preliminary understanding of the parties who intend to enter into contract. I
41 Manni : The best person to ask what I remember would be myself, your comment about me was absolutely not necessary. You might not remember these posts, and n
42 Atmx2000 : GE wouldn't do it if the market is too small for two separate engine vendors, particularly when they are exclusive on the competitor. The other aircr
43 Tifoso : They could demand a base resale price guarantee from Airbus like IB and others have done in the past.
44 Lumberton : Exactly. There was a thread yesterday that went into the background on IB's decision to take the A346. The thread seems to have been deleted. If Airb
45 Kaitak : If Airbus hasn't crystallised the A350's configuration, how come other carriers - particularly respectable ones like AY, TP etc - have committed to it
46 Scbriml : I understand the differences between LOI and MOU. I also understand that neither forms a legally binding contract. However, the fact that QR has both
47 BoeingBus : This debate is nonsense as it's been rehashed over and over again... what counts here is the fact that the demand for the 773ER is there w/ or w/o QR.
48 VirginFlyer : I've just had to remove a large number of posts from this thread because some users can't make posts without resorting to sweeping generalisations and
49 AndesSMF : Look, if you have a couple billion to spend, you make the call. Sounds like good business to me.
50 BoeingFever777 : Sounds like SU... Simple ridiculous!
51 TrevD : Frankly QR's loss...as others have suggested, for the 777 it's a seller's market and it sounds like Boeing does not feel like they need to give away t
52 Leelaw : Qatar Airways CEO: To Decide 20 Plane Order By Late March DOW JONES NEWSWIRES February 23, 2006 SINGAPORE -- Qatar Airways will decide by late March w
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