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DL Drops LGA-SRQ  
User currently offlineHVNandrew From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 439 posts, RR: 0
Posted (8 years 8 months 2 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 3839 times:

Following in FL's footsteps, DL has dropped the daily OH LGA-SRQ route effective April 2. Looks like DL is keeping the mainline Saturday morning nonstop for the time being.

34 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineMD90fan From Bahamas, joined Jul 2005, 2931 posts, RR: 7
Reply 1, posted (8 years 8 months 2 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 3813 times:

Quoting HVNandrew (Thread starter):
Following in FL's footsteps, DL has dropped the daily OH LGA-SRQ route effective April 2. Looks like DL is keeping the mainline Saturday morning nonstop for the time being.

So the route is only Sat.?...Another DL attempt at chipping away at FL's loads with RJ's  Sad



http://www.devanwells.blogspot.com/
User currently offlineFlyPNS1 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 6645 posts, RR: 24
Reply 2, posted (8 years 8 months 2 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 3805 times:

There's a big surprise.........NOT.

DL launched this route solely to drive off Airtran. The strategy worked, but it would be interesting to see how much money DL lost (or made  Yeah sure ) on this route. This type of scorched earth route planning strategy helps explain why DL is bleeding red ink.


User currently offlineNonRevKing From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (8 years 8 months 2 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 3734 times:

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 2):
There's a big surprise.........NOT.

DL launched this route solely to drive off Airtran. The strategy worked, but it would be interesting to see how much money DL lost (or made ) on this route. This type of scorched earth route planning strategy helps explain why DL is bleeding red ink.

Wait, I don't understand. Delta shouldn't compete?

If they put a 764 on it, you'd say they were capacity dumping. It's one measly RJ a day that was going against FL's larger 717, and you complain just the same.

We all know what a fan of Delta's RJ's you are...Are you saying that the little RJ is a worthy competitor against the 717? I never thought you'd have a change of heart!

Either way, they're keeping the Sat non stop, so your point is moot.

B


User currently offlineCory6188 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 2692 posts, RR: 5
Reply 4, posted (8 years 8 months 2 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 3732 times:

How does CO manage to do EWR-SRQ if both FL and DL couldn't do it out of LGA?

User currently offlinePVD757 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 3414 posts, RR: 16
Reply 5, posted (8 years 8 months 2 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 3708 times:

Quoting Cory6188 (Reply 4):
How does CO manage to do EWR-SRQ if both FL and DL couldn't do it out of LGA?

feed from PWM, MHT, BTV, BOS, PVD, BDL, BUF, ROC, SYR, ALB, YUL, YQB, etc., etc...


User currently offlineTango-Bravo From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 3806 posts, RR: 29
Reply 6, posted (8 years 8 months 2 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 3690 times:

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 2):
This type of scorched earth route planning strategy helps explain why DL is bleeding red ink.

Not to worry... DL can always go back to their employees for another round of paycuts and stiff a few more creditors behind cover of bankruptcy. After which they will repeat the cycle of throwing more good money at bad money and return once again to their employees (for sure) and creditors (if they can) for still more concessions.


User currently offlinePVD757 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 3414 posts, RR: 16
Reply 7, posted (8 years 8 months 2 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 3667 times:

Quoting Tango-Bravo (Reply 6):
Not to worry... DL can always go back to their employees for another round of paycuts and stiff a few more creditors behind cover of bankruptcy. After which they will repeat the cycle of throwing more good money at bad money and return once again to their employees (for sure) and creditors (if they can) for still more concessions

Wow, I've heard this sentiment before...

are you saying that DL is following USAirways "top 10 ways to reduce costs while in bankrupcy" plan???

...sorry, I couldn't resist - I know it's not funny - moreso sad for the way the industry has decimated many a livlihood over the past few years.


User currently offlineQuickmover From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 2494 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (8 years 8 months 2 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 3581 times:

Quoting Cory6188 (Reply 4):
How does CO manage to do EWR-SRQ if both FL and DL couldn't do it out of LGA?

A major hub at EWR to funnel passengers to and from.


User currently offlineTango-Bravo From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 3806 posts, RR: 29
Reply 9, posted (8 years 8 months 2 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 3557 times:

Quoting PVD757 (Reply 7):
are you saying that DL is following USAirways "top 10 ways to reduce costs while in bankrupcy" plan???

Actually, it seems like NW in particular, but DL as well, are determined to make US and UA look like "pikers" in exploiting the bankruptcy game at everyone's expense except executive management.


User currently offlineNonRevKing From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (8 years 8 months 2 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 3543 times:

Quoting Tango-Bravo (Reply 9):
Actually, it seems like NW in particular, but DL as well, are determined to make US and UA look like "pikers" in exploiting the bankruptcy game at everyone's expense except executive management.

Please do some research regarding what cuts DL's current management have taken before posting such comments.

B


User currently offlineDAL767400ER From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (8 years 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 3253 times:

Quoting Tango-Bravo (Reply 9):
Actually, it seems like NW in particular, but DL as well, are determined to make US and UA look like "pikers" in exploiting the bankruptcy game at everyone's expense except executive management.

Ah yes, so it must obviously have been my imagination that a certain Gerry Grinstein has earned a total of $625K over two years for working as the CEO at the world's second largest airline and that management has also taken multiple paycuts, with the latest being 10%. Obviously, all just my imagination  Yeah sure .


User currently offlineCMHSRQ From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 995 posts, RR: 4
Reply 12, posted (8 years 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 3184 times:

Quoting PVD757 (Reply 5):
Quoting Cory6188 (Reply 4):
How does CO manage to do EWR-SRQ if both FL and DL couldn't do it out of LGA?

feed from PWM, MHT, BTV, BOS, PVD, BDL, BUF, ROC, SYR, ALB, YUL, YQB, etc., etc...

When I was on the ramp/ops for COA in SRQ in the 90's a vast majority of the traffic is O and D. In the summer it was around 95% O/D and in the winter more like 80% due to additional flights to SRQ.

COA adds a daily flight to CLE today and an additional flight to SRQ on the 17th of Feb.


I thought the LGA flight would at least last through the May schedule change. Oh well. Here's hoping for JetBlue next fall.



The voice of moderation
User currently offlinePVD757 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 3414 posts, RR: 16
Reply 13, posted (8 years 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 3083 times:

Quoting CMHSRQ (Reply 12):
When I was on the ramp/ops for COA in SRQ in the 90's a vast majority of the traffic is O and D. In the summer it was around 95% O/D and in the winter more like 80% due to additional flights to SRQ.

well then, I stand corrected. perhaps the small amount of feed that CO did get pushed the economics to the black for CO where the flights from LGA on DL (differant airline and airport costs - more for both probably) didn't cut the mustard...

other than that I have no idea why it works for CO and not for DL. Myabe DL just saw better use for the LGA slot, maybe they needed that aircraft to do another route somewhere else...


User currently offlineLGA777 From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 1149 posts, RR: 19
Reply 14, posted (8 years 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 3080 times:

At least the flight is in place for Feb and March which have to be the two biggest months for demand NYC-FLA !

Cheers

LGA777


User currently offlineDL4EVR From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 641 posts, RR: 1
Reply 15, posted (8 years 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 2985 times:

How come they're selling the mainline route as an all Y config? They've done this to their Sat. mainline route to MCO also. Do you think that once song is over they will continue to sell all flights from NY to Florida as an all Y config?


We Love To Fly And It Shows.
User currently offlineCO2BGR From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 558 posts, RR: 4
Reply 16, posted (8 years 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 2985 times:

Quoting DL4EVR (Reply 15):
How come they're selling the mainline route as an all Y config? They've done this to their Sat. mainline route to MCO also. Do you think that once song is over they will continue to sell all flights from NY to Florida as an all Y config?

They use the shuttle aircraft that sit idle on the weekends



There are too many self indulgent weiners in this town with too much bloody money" Randal Raines- Gone in 60 Seconds
User currently offlineIowaman From United States of America, joined May 2004, 4421 posts, RR: 6
Reply 17, posted (8 years 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 2985 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

Jee, this comes as a real surprise after FL drops it.  Yeah sure

User currently offlineOttoPylit From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (8 years 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 2869 times:

Quoting NonRevKing (Reply 3):
Wait, I don't understand. Delta shouldn't compete?

If they put a 764 on it, you'd say they were capacity dumping. It's one measly RJ a day that was going against FL's larger 717, and you complain just the same.

We all know what a fan of Delta's RJ's you are...Are you saying that the little RJ is a worthy competitor against the 717? I never thought you'd have a change of heart!

Either way, they're keeping the Sat non stop, so your point is moot.

Apparently, YOU don't get it. Don't it know, its not Delta's job to compete. Its not Delta's job to try and do the "out of mind" thing like make a buck. Delta's only purpose is to drive all other airlines out of markets, period. Delta should be ashamed of doing this. They are picking on this helpless, little LCC and should be punished for doing so. How dare they EVEN think of compete.


HOWEVER, on the other side of the coin, my question is, does FL still get the whole $500,000 dollars in revenue subsidies for starting that flight that was promised by SRQ for the flight? Or could SRQ not wanted to continue paying subsidies any longer and so FL dropped the route instead of compete? Airtran is well known for this type of action. After all, how could anyone want this little ole CRJ as compared to this luxurious 717? I guess FlyPNS's theory of people not wanting to fly RJ's as compared to 717's is incorrect. Knowing FL, they will fight like crazy to keep the subsidies for the rest of the year, even though they will have only operated the flight for a quarter of the time. Apparently, there is at least some demand for the route, as DL still will operate MD-88 Sat only service. But obviously the demand wasn't there to support FL being able to compete. I guess FL expected no one would challenge them and it would be a monopolistic market, something Airtran has little of and keeps dwindling....quickly. Is that the smart way to run an airline, fly a route for free cash and hope no one challenges you, otherwise your back to square one? I guess the same should switch to FL's management.

Looks like the hand is on the other foot now, eh?



OttoPylit


User currently offlineFlyPNS1 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 6645 posts, RR: 24
Reply 19, posted (8 years 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 2590 times:

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 18):
How dare they EVEN think of compete.

Dumping capacity on markets where you know you will lose money isn't competition. It's just desperation.

You can knock Airtran's management all you want, but look at the financials of the two airlines. Airtran's management has delivered positive results, DL's management hasn't....unless losing $782 million is a good thing.


User currently offlineOttoPylit From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (8 years 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 2542 times:

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 19):
Airtran's management has delivered positive results

They lost $400,000 in the 4th quarter of 2005. Thats delivering postive results? If anything, they are following in the steps of Delta management.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 19):
Dumping capacity on markets where you know you will lose money isn't competition. It's just desperation.

HAHAHA, your desperation will get you nowhere. Dumping capacity on markets? Is that what they were doing?

Lets see, Airtran flew at least 1 717 a day to LGA with 117 seats.

Delta flew 1 Comair CRJ-700 to LGA with 70 seats. And on Saturdays only, had an MD-88. Thats dumping capacity? If anything, Airtran was dumping capacity because 5 days out of 6, they were flying a larger aircraft to LGA. So go ahead and try to spin this "dumping capacity" all you want. It doesn't ignore the clear fact you don't want to see. FL flew the market, DL competed with a smaller aircraft in a market that obviously couldn't support any more than 1 flight a day(if that) and the weaker airline pulled out. Let me guess, to reallocate the plane in other markets, right?

Nice try, but you failed miserably.



OttoPylit


User currently offlineIowaman From United States of America, joined May 2004, 4421 posts, RR: 6
Reply 21, posted (8 years 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 2521 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 20):
They lost $400,000 in the 4th quarter of 2005.

Which percentage wise compared to there revenue, that is a very small operating loss, compared to DL's, which is much much larger. At least FL is trying.


User currently offlineOttoPylit From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (8 years 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 2472 times:

Quoting Iowaman (Reply 21):
Which percentage wise compared to there revenue, that is a very small operating loss, compared to DL's, which is much much larger. At least FL is trying.

Sorry, anyway you look at it, a loss is a loss. Just because FL is trying doesn't exactly excuse that money out of their pocket. Delta is trying and succeeding at getting in line, but if they fail, trying just won't cut it. Comparing it to DL is comparing apples to oranges. Let's see, DL is the second largest worldwide airline in terms of passengers carried, with over 500 airplanes and thousands of destinations with their partners.

Airtran is a regional airline with limited links to the West Coast that has right at 100 airplanes or so and flies to a handful of cities(we'll say around 50 for average). Their size and operation isn't even a fraction of what Delta's is, so Delta stands to lose or make much more than Airtran would. Comparing the two doesn't do anything.



OttoPylit


User currently offline73G From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 128 posts, RR: 1
Reply 23, posted (8 years 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 2449 times:

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 20):
They lost $400,000 in the 4th quarter of 2005

Yep, and managed to eek a profit for 2005...another year, another profit. Nothing fancy, I know. How'd your employer do?

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 20):
and the weaker airline pulled out.

But, isnt DL pulling out too? If the point of your statement is that the stronger airline won...shouldn't the spoils go to the victor? And if the spoils go to the victor, shouldn't DL have basked in the glory of its victory and stuck with the route and raked in the 10's of passengers that flew the route daily?

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 18):
I guess FL expected no one would challenge them and it would be a monopolistic market,

Actually, that sounds more like Delta's M.O. in the early 90's. I don't think any airline would be foolish enough to make that mistake again, Airtran or otherwise.


User currently offlineHVNandrew From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 439 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (8 years 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 2449 times:

Quoting CO2BGR (Reply 16):

I'm not sure that's true. The F class cabin is still on the aircraft, but being sold under coach fares, with coach service.


25 DAL767400ER : No, as said before, Delta is not pulling out of LGA-SRQ. The daily CR7 is being axed, but there is still the saturday-only MD-88.
26 73G : Alright, I'll rephrase. If DL won the battle of DAILY flights...shouldn't DL have kept a DAILY flight since they were the stronger airline?
27 FlyPNS1 : Losing $782 million is succeeding??? You have a pretty odd definition of success. Airtran saw a huge spike in fuel prices and was still able to post
28 OttoPylit : Delta is keeping the flight and moving it up to larger equipment. And making it something that will make sense and doesn't need free money to do it.
29 FlyPNS1 : So what? Airtran also brings in substantially less revenue then DL because of their much smaller size. The point I'm making is that Airtran offset th
30 Post contains images DeltaMIA : Which is great considering DL introduced Simplifares in the first quarter of 2005. 2006 will be a better comparison. FL raised their RASM against the
31 STLGph : yep. both airlines did it and no one got anywhere.
32 Wukka : But "Simplifares" has been pretty weak at CVG, even though they were a large part of the initial test market for the program and were claimed as a hu
33 DeltaMIA : Show me proof. I wasn't talking about the success of Simplifares I was referring to why DL's RASM increase wasn't as high as Airtran's. Do you have e
34 Wukka : It increased O&D marginally. It's still cheaper to drive within 100 miles of CVG and connect at CVG using Delta and its' feeders (including its' own
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