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AC Jazz Gets The Boot From YTZ  
User currently offline9252fly From Canada, joined Sep 2005, 1403 posts, RR: 0
Posted (8 years 10 months 1 week 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 5129 times:

Interesting press releases today from AC Jazz,Porter Airlines and The Toronto Port Authority. Seems that Porter owned the building that Jazz operated out of on the island and served them a 30 day eviction notice. Jazz just issued a press release saying they are suspending service to the airport as of March 1st,it basically means they are done and it's permanent! Porter also issued a release indicating they have started to renovate the buiding in preparation for the airline's start-up in Fall. Of course the Port Authority had to issue a press release and deny that it was their fault!

26 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineRP TPA From United States of America, joined Oct 1999, 852 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (8 years 10 months 1 week 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 5071 times:

I just read the press release, and I'm trying to see where it indicates the suspension is permanent. In fact, it looks as if Jazz will probably persue legal options in order to continue flying out of YTZ.

The complete release is at www.flyjazz.com


User currently offline9252fly From Canada, joined Sep 2005, 1403 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (8 years 10 months 1 week 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 4993 times:

Quoting RP TPA (Reply 1):
I just read the press release, and I'm trying to see where it indicates the suspension is permanent.

You will not see on any press release reference to the permanent suspension of service. Why I added that is based on previous Jazz press releases from about a dozen other service suspensions where they withdrew services(suspended)from a particular city and never came back. Think of it as 'Airline speak',when they say suspend,they mean good-bye!!!


User currently offlineYyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16367 posts, RR: 56
Reply 3, posted (8 years 10 months 1 week 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 4891 times:

According to the AC website, the daily YTZ-YOW flights end on Tues Feb 28. No flights shown from March 1st onward.

What a sad day for Toronto.



Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
User currently offline777ER From New Zealand, joined Dec 2003, 12339 posts, RR: 18
Reply 4, posted (8 years 10 months 1 week 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 4869 times:
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What aircraft will Porter will operate? I can not see why both AC Jazz and Porter Air can not operate from the same terminal, sounds like Porter Air are just greedy

User currently offlineAccargo From Canada, joined Sep 2004, 610 posts, RR: 8
Reply 5, posted (8 years 10 months 1 week 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 4729 times:

Quoting 9252fly (Reply 2):
Think of it as 'Airline speak',when they say suspend,they mean good-bye!!!

We apologize to the many loyal Toronto City Centre Airport customers who will be impacted by this situation", said Bill Bredt, Air Canada Jazz's Senior Vice President and Chief Operating Officer. "We view this suspension as a temporary measure made necessary by an unforeseen eviction, and the surprising unwillingness by the Toronto Port Authority to assist its longest-standing commercial airline in finding alternate facilities at the Island Airport. Jazz will pursue every recourse available to re-establish operations at the City Centre Airport as soon as possible", he added.

Think of it as Airline speak for "expect a lawsuit if you refuse to negotiate." It is a public facility and the Port Authority is going to get hauled into court again.


User currently offlineYOW From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (8 years 10 months 1 week 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 4594 times:

Here's Porter's answer a few hours later:

TCCA terminal rejuvenation for Porter Airlines underway
TORONTO, Feb. 15 /CNW/ - REGCO Holdings Inc. (REGCO) today announced that
its wholly-owned subsidiary City Centre Aviation Ltd. (CCAL) has commenced
interior renovations of the CCAL East terminal facilities at Toronto City
Centre Airport. Porter Airlines will use the upgraded space when it begins
scheduled flights from the TCCA to short-haul Canadian and U.S. destinations
later this year. The expanded facilities will employ over 500 people
associated with the airport, terminal and new airline.
The renovations will enhance the existing space in order to provide the
traveling public with an enjoyable terminal experience. These enhancements
will include a complete interior restyling, the installation of electronic
check-in kiosks, an upgrade to wireless Internet access, the introduction of
business work stations and a comfortable departure lounge with new food and
beverage service.
"This rejuvenation of the existing terminal facilities is a clear sign of
REGCO's commitment to offering Porter's travelers a seamless and hassle-free
experience that will bring a certain pleasure back to air travel," said Robert
Deluce, president and CEO of REGCO and Porter Airlines Inc. "When the terminal
is reopened in the fall, passengers will welcome the new integrated concept
and business-friendly surroundings."
During the construction period, existing scheduled airline operations
from the CCAL East terminal facilities will be suspended. The renovation will
be completed by the end of August 2006 and the terminal will be fully
operational for Porter Airlines' first flights in the fall of 2006.

What a war this is turning out to be. In the short-term, the losers are the users of the YOW-YTZ route.


User currently offlineCRJpurser From Canada, joined Feb 2006, 76 posts, RR: 1
Reply 7, posted (8 years 10 months 1 week 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 4545 times:

It will be very interesting to see what happens with this situation. Air Canada has no problem cutting service to airports, however they do not like someone else making the decision for them. Hopefully there is a Q400/ Q300 order in the near future for Jazz, we certainly are on a hiring blitz, so who knows.

User currently offlineBriboy From Canada, joined Jul 2001, 367 posts, RR: 1
Reply 8, posted (8 years 10 months 1 week 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 4528 times:

I think there is something bigger going on here.

I think AC wants YTZ to go away as a commercial airport. Much better to feed all passengers through YYZ on the hourly Rapidair flights -- it strengthens the hub.

They want to kill Regio, as it *is* a threat to YYZ. Before the last municipal election, when there was a fight over building a bridge to YTZ, who announced that they wanted to put RJs at YTZ? AC! Of course, that created a firestorm of protest in the City. This firestorm fueled Miller into office, and killed the bridge.

Of course AC knew that was going to be the result. They WANTED the bridge killed. No Bridge, no Regio, no competition.

Regio knows that they have to get rid of AC at YTZ to survive. If AC stayed, they would flood the airport with Dash-8s and kill Regio before it could get on it's feet. But, by buying the buildings out under from AC, they can get the market to themselves (for a time).

My view is that AC is going to work to A: sic their lawyers on Regio and the Authority to try to stop improvement and service (or at least divert Regio financially and focus), AND B: try to find an alternative base at YTZ.

Remember, before this last announcement they had announced INCREASED service from YTZ.

When AC moves back to YTZ, do not expect 5 flights a day to YOW, expect 10 flights a day to YOW, and YUL, and wherever Regio flies. They will match fares to Regio, and of course offer triple Aeroplan miles.

I give Regio 18 months.

/Brian



next up: YYC, SFO, SYD, AKL, WLG, CMB, BKK, SIN, FRA, VCE, JFK
User currently offlineLongHauler From Canada, joined Mar 2004, 5157 posts, RR: 43
Reply 9, posted (8 years 10 months 1 week 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 4498 times:

I am reminded of the late 80s early 90s when there was a thriving airline operating out of YTZ named City Express. Operating Dash 7s, Dash 8s, and ST-27s, they flew to various destinations, including YOW and YUL, which was clearly their big profit area.

Air Canada saw this, and moved their Ontario regional airline, Air Ontario and jumped on the YTZ-YUL and YTZ-YOW market. Slashing fares to incredible lows, then flooding the market with frequencies, it was not a surprise when City Express eventually shut down. Air Ontario (Air Canada) then reduced the frequencies by half, and tripled and quadrupled the fares. Lets face it, Air Canada loves a monopoly, and have had one YTZ-YOW and YTZ-YUL until now.


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[Edited 2006-02-16 17:45:59]


Never gonna grow up, never gonna slow down .... Barefoot Blue Jean Night
User currently offlineJamesontheroad From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2005, 556 posts, RR: 1
Reply 10, posted (8 years 10 months 1 week 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 4388 times:

Quoting Briboy (Reply 8):
They want to kill Regio, as it *is* a threat to YYZ. Before the last municipal election, when there was a fight over building a bridge to YTZ, who announced that they wanted to put RJs at YTZ? AC! Of course, that created a firestorm of protest in the City. This firestorm fueled Miller into office, and killed the bridge.

An extremely concise and interesting comment - and I agree. I was on Ward Island recently and noticed a lot of community signs anti YTZ expansion. With only one airline (and a start up at that) it'll be harder to win the fight for expansion.

Quoting Briboy (Reply 8):
When AC moves back to YTZ, do not expect 5 flights a day to YOW, expect 10 flights a day to YOW, and YUL, and wherever Regio flies. They will match fares to Regio, and of course offer triple Aeroplan miles.

I give Regio 18 months.

Because of course most people using the AC Jazz flights through YTZ are regular business pax (and politicians to YTZ). These are the people with big Aeroplan balances, and the inconvenience of a slightly longer taxi ride out to Pearson will surely be balanced by the knowledge of a healthy mileage for the summer holiday. The same thing was mentioned in the dispute over the flights to rural Québec: of course the politicians will choose Jazz, their commuting pays them handsomely.

I'll put my head on the line, and suggest it'll be two years max.

*j*


User currently offlineHanginOut From Austria, joined May 2005, 550 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (8 years 10 months 1 week 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 4365 times:

Personally, I think that competition is great. Without it you get stagnation and the "but this is the way we've always done it" mentality.

I would love to see both AC and the new carrier operate at YTZ, but if AC just drives them out of business and goes back to its old monopolistic ways, I sense trouble on the horizon with travellers.

I always thought that AC had its "A" game when Canadian was around, but went to its "C" game once the merger went through (not helped by the massive amount of debt they operated under or all of the stupid rules and regulations the Government placed on them). Unfortunately, AC only steps up to the plate with its "A" game when it has competition, and quickly reverts back to its "C" when it has a monopoly.

Hence, I think it is good for both consumers and AC when there is competition, otherwise the tendency is to get lazy and take things for granted.

As for the new carrier, while it would be easier for them if they got rid of AC, they could really differentiate themselves by the level of service that they offer customers (as well as price).

Therefore, the best thing would be for both airlines to operate from YTZ.

HanginOut



Dreaming of the day I can work for an airline
User currently offlineOlympus69 From Canada, joined Jun 2002, 1737 posts, RR: 7
Reply 12, posted (8 years 10 months 1 week 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 4269 times:

If AC Jazz does compete with REGCO's Porter (not Regio, Briboy), it will be interesting to see what plane they use to compete. They can't use CRJs and their Dash 8 100s and 300s are too slow to offer real competition except on the shortest routes (YTZ-BUF?, YTZ-ROC? YTZ-YXU? YTZ-YYZ?).
Perhaps they'll finally get some Q400s?


User currently offlineBriboy From Canada, joined Jul 2001, 367 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (8 years 10 months 1 week 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 4201 times:

Hello

The real bread and butter routes from YTZ would be to YUL, YOW, EWR and LGA. YXU maybe, but that would be secondary to the others. AC will have 8-100s and -300s in place for these routes. I can't see the speed advantage of the -400 (Regio) outweighing the AC benefits of Aeroplan, *Alliance connections, corporate flight contracts, etc. As well, both Regio and AC will be both disadvantaged in that the average person would see an identical plane, disliking that they are flying on a prop, no matter what NVR system is in place.

BUF, ROC, etc are *VERY* marginal locations with not nearly enough Business O/D traffic to make it worthwhile for anyone.

Regards

/Brian



next up: YYC, SFO, SYD, AKL, WLG, CMB, BKK, SIN, FRA, VCE, JFK
User currently offlineNorthStarDC4M From Canada, joined Apr 2000, 3075 posts, RR: 36
Reply 14, posted (8 years 10 months 1 week 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 4179 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
CHAT OPERATOR

Quoting Briboy (Reply 13):
BUF, ROC, etc are *VERY* marginal locations with not nearly enough Business O/D traffic to make it worthwhile for anyone.

very true

truth is, there are very very few destinations that are viable from YTZ. YOW, YUL, NYC and outside options at BOS, YXU, YQG, YSB, YQT, anything else would be very marginal.

The only other major cities in Dash range of YTZ:

Detroit, Detroit-Toronto demand is at best marginal, the drive is short enough to make flying from DTW counter-productive, and most Detroit related business in Toronto is outside of the city core, making YTZ a disadvantage.

Chicago, distance is an issue here, compitition from YYZ would be heavy (Ac, UA, AA all fly to ORD with mainline equip).

Philadelphia, not that much O/D demand on this route, not much biz traffic between the 2 cities.

Washington/Baltimore, same issue as Philly

Quebec City, YQB is marginal from YYZ...

So basically, the classic YOW-YUL-YTZ setup is what seems pratical.



Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.
User currently offlineYyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16367 posts, RR: 56
Reply 15, posted (8 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 4045 times:

Quoting Briboy (Reply 13):
The real bread and butter routes from YTZ would be to YUL, YOW, EWR and LGA.

I agree. Although I don't see how Porter can fill up the Q400 on even these routes.

Quoting Briboy (Reply 8):
I think AC wants YTZ to go away as a commercial airport.

I agree.

Quoting NorthStarDC4M (Reply 14):
Detroit, Detroit-Toronto demand is at best marginal, the drive is short enough to make flying from DTW counter-productive, and most Detroit related business in Toronto is outside of the city core, making YTZ a disadvantage.

YTZ-DTW would do well since DTW is a hub airport, if the pre-clearance think can ever work at YTZ (doubtful, since it's too small).

Anyway, the AC Jazz flights have only been cancelled for the month of March. The 5 daily YTZ-YOW are back in the schedule from April 3rd.



Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
User currently offlineN1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26812 posts, RR: 75
Reply 16, posted (8 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 4045 times:

Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 15):
YTZ-DTW would do well since DTW is a hub airport, if the pre-clearance think can ever work at YTZ (doubtful, since it's too small).

YKF-DTW and YXU-DTW work without pre-clearence as is. Granted, you don't have to compete with YYZ across town, but you do have to compete with YYZ not too far up the road in the case of YKF and driving in the case of YXU. Honestly, I don't see a point to YXU-YTZ since you aren't feeding a big hub with the flights. It is too expensive for PAX to do it with O&D when you have to compete with the 401 and VIA.



Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
User currently offlineYOW From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (8 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 4015 times:

Quoting Briboy (Reply 13):
The real bread and butter routes from YTZ would be to YUL, YOW, EWR and LGA.

LGA cannot be served from YTZ.

Quoting NorthStarDC4M (Reply 14):
truth is, there are very very few destinations that are viable from YTZ. YOW, YUL, NYC and outside options at BOS, YXU, YQG, YSB, YQT, anything else would be very marginal.

YAM would also probably work, A YTS-YYB-YTZ route might also be viable.


User currently offlineBriboy From Canada, joined Jul 2001, 367 posts, RR: 1
Reply 18, posted (8 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 3979 times:

Quoting YOW (Reply 17):
YAM would also probably work, A YTS-YYB-YTZ route might also be viable.

Is there really enough traffic to justify this route? It would have to be all O/D, which I can't see filling (Multiple) Q400's a day.

Quoting YOW (Reply 17):
LGA cannot be served from YTZ.

Is that because of the type of aircraft, or lack of pre-clearance?

Again, I can't see how Regco can make a real go of this. The Q400, while a great airplane, is not enough to beat out AC.

Regards,

Brian



next up: YYC, SFO, SYD, AKL, WLG, CMB, BKK, SIN, FRA, VCE, JFK
User currently offlineN1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26812 posts, RR: 75
Reply 19, posted (8 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 3940 times:

Quoting Briboy (Reply 18):
Is that because of the type of aircraft, or lack of pre-clearance?

Actually, LGA does have a customs facility, but they usually only use it for GA flights.



Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
User currently offline9252fly From Canada, joined Sep 2005, 1403 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (8 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 3920 times:

Quoting Briboy (Reply 18):
Again, I can't see how Regco can make a real go of this. The Q400, while a great airplane, is not enough to beat out AC.

What will be interesting to watch is how Regco will do after the first year. Their plan is a bit risky,but they are not stupid and have likely developed a well thought out business plan. If things don't work out well,don't be surprised to see Jazz return to YTZ after the smoke clears and perhaps pick up the DH4's from the receiver for use on other routes.


User currently offlineNorthStarDC4M From Canada, joined Apr 2000, 3075 posts, RR: 36
Reply 21, posted (8 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 3892 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
CHAT OPERATOR

Quoting YOW (Reply 17):
YAM would also probably work, A YTS-YYB-YTZ route might also be viable.

YAM might be marginally viable, maybe YTZ-YAM-YQT, though the YAM-YQT segment would have about 0.09 pax per flight and you'd have to compete with Bearskin to get them.
YTS-YYB forget it, YTS is a complete AC lockup, has been for ages and ages. Royal, JetsGo, Canadian Regional and 2 hometown startups (Commercial, who even tried YTZ and Frontair) all found that out. AC isnt about to let anyone else have it either. JetsGo put MD-80s on YTS, AC slapped CRJs on 5 out of 6 daily flights. JetsGo leaves, the fares go back up and the Dash 8-100s come back on.
YYB alas much as id love to see it, there isnt enough market, road travel is too short and the road is good enough for it. Honestly im surprised its held onto as much service as it has.



Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.
User currently offlineSlawko From Canada, joined May 1999, 3799 posts, RR: 9
Reply 22, posted (8 years 10 months 1 week 1 day ago) and read 3811 times:

Porter's plan is risky, but given their management group, not just the Deluce's but the others, not to mention that they have Don Carty on board....and the amount of money behind the project I think they will be able to hold out, at least for the short haul...


"Clive Beddoe says he favours competition, but his actions do not support that idea." Robert Milton - CEO Air Canada
User currently offlineSkydrol From Canada, joined Oct 2003, 983 posts, RR: 10
Reply 23, posted (8 years 10 months 1 week 19 hours ago) and read 3733 times:

Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 3):
According to the AC website, the daily YTZ-YOW flights end on Tues Feb 28. No flights shown from March 1st onward.

What a sad day for Toronto.

But what a jubilant day for David Miller.




LD4



∙ ---{--« ∙ ----{--« ∙ --{-« ∙ ---{--« ∙ --{--« ∙ --{-« ∙ ----{--« ∙
User currently offlineJean Leloup From Canada, joined Apr 2001, 2116 posts, RR: 19
Reply 24, posted (8 years 10 months 23 hours ago) and read 3593 times:

Has there been any indication that schedules will be set up to favour connections? Obviously most traffic would be O&D, but getting a ticket from, say, YQG through to YUL could certainly appeal to some.

If they do try YYB (which I agree is a very longshot), it'd be a great way to connect to YUL, as I'll hopefully be at school in YYB next year. Well, one can hope!

JL



Next flight.... who knows.
25 Post contains images NorthStarDC4M : Jean, have fun at Canadore/Nipissing it's a great campus. Alas i feel YYB is a Jazz Jazz and more Jazz, and forget the rest type place... unless you c
26 Olympus69 : Good Grief!; the service has only been suspended for a month - presumably while the terminal reconstruction is going on. (See reply 15.)
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