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Who Is The "Frank Lorenzo" Of Today?  
User currently offlineCumulonimbus From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (8 years 6 months 1 week 4 hours ago) and read 5760 times:

Just was wondering about who you guys think is the Frank Lorenzo of Airlines today and why? If I had to pick somebody it would be Good Ol' Johnny O' of Mesa... That Guy seems to treat his employees like dirt, in my opinion runs a substanderd airline while pocketing all the money for himself and is just an all around weasel.

Mike

24 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineDAL767400ER From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (8 years 6 months 1 week 3 hours ago) and read 5733 times:

Ornstein certainly is a candidate, though personally I think the closest person to Lorenzo these days is Doug "The Chainsaw" Steenland at Northwest. Just ask pilots or mechanics at NW.

User currently offlinePetmbro From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 260 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (8 years 6 months 1 week 3 hours ago) and read 5698 times:

Quoting DAL767400ER (Reply 1):
Steenland at Northwest. Just ask pilots or mechanics at NW.

I second that.
What's ol' Frank been up to lately? I read in Time a couple months ago about Carl Icahn and how he's trying to make an impact over at Time Warner but I've never really heard much of Lorenzo after EA.



"don't pee on my leg and tell me it's raining!" - Judge Judy
User currently offlineFlyHoss From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 598 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (8 years 6 months 1 week 3 hours ago) and read 5696 times:

Jonathon Ornstein was the first name that came to my mind.


A little bit louder now, a lil bit louder now...
User currently offlineNWADC9 From United States of America, joined May 2004, 4896 posts, RR: 10
Reply 4, posted (8 years 6 months 1 week 3 hours ago) and read 5696 times:

The fools at NWA, especially



Flying an aeroplane with only a single propeller to keep you in the air. Can you imagine that? -Capt. Picard
User currently offlineCa2ohHP From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 954 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (8 years 6 months 1 week 1 hour ago) and read 5592 times:

Yeah I'd say Steenland is the closest, he's not even nearly as bad as Lorenzo. Last I heard, Lorenzo tried to start up a new airline in 1993, but the U.S. DOT would not permit him to. He therefore took a position with a Mexican based airline (don't recall which one).
JO is not a corporate raider. He seems like more talk than anything. For example, purchasing Atlantic Coast Airlines before the launch of Independence Air, or purchasing a part of Hawaiian Airlines in bankruptcy. JO isn't even close to Lorenzo. Plus, Lorenzo used junk bonds to finance all his acquisitions.

In 1982 he took Continental into bankruptcy, and striking workers were forced to return to their jobs, with no contract...which was the law at the time. In 1989 the Eastern pilots, flight attendants and IAM represented employees went on strike. Lorenzo's luck had run out by then. In 1984 bankruptcy law had changed, giving corporations less freedom than they enjoyed operating under chapter 11 (such as Continental in 1983). In 1990 the judge overseeing Eastern's bankruptcy case found him unfit to run an airline, and Lorenzo was forced to liquidate Eastern and his personal investments a year later. I think a better comparison to Lorenzo in todays world would be Kenneth Lay of Enron.


User currently offlineIsitsafenow From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 4984 posts, RR: 23
Reply 6, posted (8 years 6 months 1 week 1 hour ago) and read 5541 times:

Quoting Ca2ohHP (Reply 5):

Your are correct on notasbad to Fearless Frank. Frank bleeded Eastern for the benefit of Texas Air, the company that OWNED Eastern and Continental Airlines.
Doug is trying to save NW at the benefit of raking lots of people over the coals. Many question the way Doug is trying to save the company. Frank was there to line his pockets(Texas Air) at the benefit of two airlines.
Both were/are relentless in their objectives...which were NOT the same.
safe

[Edited 2006-02-16 19:22:59]

[Edited 2006-02-16 19:23:41]

[Edited 2006-02-16 19:24:34]


If two people agree on EVERYTHING, then one isn't necessary.
User currently offlineAA717driver From United States of America, joined Feb 2002, 1566 posts, RR: 13
Reply 7, posted (8 years 6 months 1 week ago) and read 5511 times:

Who is the Frank Lorenzo of today?

Wall Street.

The Harvard Business School, Wharton, et al, can be charged as accessories before the fact.TC



FL450, M.85
User currently offlineDeltaGator From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 6341 posts, RR: 13
Reply 8, posted (8 years 6 months 1 week ago) and read 5492 times:

Quoting AA717driver (Reply 7):
Who is the Frank Lorenzo of today?

Wall Street.

The Harvard Business School, Wharton, et al, can be charged as accessories before the fact.

I would have to agree with you somewhat here. It amazes me the standards that Wall Street holds companies to these days. Results must be immediate and not long term. If you miss their expectations by even a penny a share you get hammered. It is no wonder a company like Georgia-Pacific gave as one of their main reasons for being bought and take private was so they could invest in their infrastructure without being accountable to Wall Street who didn't see the big picture.



"If you can't delight in the misery of others then you don't deserve to be a college football fan."
User currently offlineSlider From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 6793 posts, RR: 34
Reply 9, posted (8 years 6 months 1 week ago) and read 5453 times:

As long as Lorenzo and Icahn are alive, no one can be awarded the mantle of being the "Lorenzo of today."

I'll have this conversation once those two, gentlemen, are in the ground 6 feet under. Icahn moreso.


User currently offlineAirlineAV8tr From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 191 posts, RR: 4
Reply 10, posted (8 years 6 months 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 5377 times:

Quoting Ca2ohHP (Reply 5):
Lorenzo. Plus, Lorenzo used junk bonds to finance all his acquisitions.

In 1982 he took Continental into bankruptcy, and striking workers were forced to return to their jobs, with no contract...which was the law at the time. In 1989 the Eastern pilots, flight attendants and IAM represented employees went on strike. Lorenzo's luck had run out by then. In 1984 bankruptcy law had changed, giving corporations less freedom than they enjoyed operating under chapter 11 (such as Continental in 1983). In 1990 the judge overseeing Eastern's bankruptcy case found him unfit to run an airline, and Lorenzo was forced to liquidate Eastern and his personal investments a year later. I think a better comparison to Lorenzo in today's world would be Kenneth Lay of Enron.

I'd have to agree with many above and say that NWA negociation tactics are reminiscent of Lorenzo. I have 3 uncles who went to NWA, and Delta, after they flew for Lorenzo- unfortunately they're in a similar situation now! Lorenzo was a ruthless negociater. He would always offer his best deal first (which was never good), and after the unions would turn that down, it just got worse! I was in a model shop one time when Mr. Lorenzo asked to have some models made for him. Before he finished his request, the owner said, "sorry Mr. Lorenzo I can't help you"- and hung up!



If we went into the funeral business, people would stop dying.-Martin S. (PanAm CEO)
User currently offlineMalaysia From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 3342 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (8 years 6 months 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 5347 times:

As a little boy, I dreamed of being a Airline Corporate Raider and turn Singapore Airlines into the next Eastern  Smile and parachute with millions of SG Dollars! and restart the carrier as the first ever Equal-Opportunity Carrier in Asia and perhaps the World.

The idea of Corporate Raider in Commercial Aviation turns me on for some reason, even new laws today make it harder for Leveraged buy outs, hostile take-overs, and elimination of unions etc.

I admire Lorenzo's 72 hour suspension of Continental, where he turned it into a pretty much a carrier with lower labor costs in 72 hours.

Id say that Lorenzo saved Continental as a carrier, not Bethune.

Frank Lorenzo was a man who knew the way of Airline Imperialism.

Airlines are cold business, so Lorezno would be a bad cold man, but its the power that he had, which fascinates me, but I would always put my employees first and make it a great workplace.

I want to get close to making an airline so successful and integrated enough to be a nation within itself.



There Are Those Who Believe That There May Yet Be Other Airlines Who Even Now Fight To Survive Beyond The Heavens
User currently offlineSsides From United States of America, joined Feb 2001, 4059 posts, RR: 21
Reply 12, posted (8 years 6 months 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 5252 times:

Quoting AA717driver (Reply 7):
Who is the Frank Lorenzo of today?

Wall Street.

The Harvard Business School, Wharton, et al, can be charged as accessories before the fact.



Quoting DeltaGator (Reply 8):
Results must be immediate and not long term. If you miss their expectations by even a penny a share you get hammered. It is no wonder a company like Georgia-Pacific gave as one of their main reasons for being bought and take private was so they could invest in their infrastructure without being accountable to Wall Street who didn't see the big picture.

Wall Street is simply looking out for shareholders' well-being -- they own the company, after all.

When it comes to long-term visions, no Wall Street pricing policy is theoretically designed to be myopic in its approach. That being said, stock prices are supposed to represent the current value of a company, particularly in terms of its earnings. If you think a company has a good long-term future, you invest in it with the expectation that there will be bumps along the way. If you are right, then the stock will appreciate, thus benefitting the forward-looking investor.

And, while a penny-a-share may not seem like much, it usually means upwards of $2 million in earnings for a big corporation such as an airline. Not do-or-die significant, but not chump-change either.



"Lose" is not spelled with two o's!!!!
User currently offlineTu154m From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 682 posts, RR: 5
Reply 13, posted (8 years 6 months 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 5235 times:

ALL ALL ALL of Delta's management team could work for and get promoted by Mr Lorenzo. In fact, it wouldn't surprise me in the least bit to walk in and hear he has been hired as a "consultant". Oh yeah, he would probably announce that he "voluntarily" reduced his salary to $500,000, down from $750,000 which includes 6.6 million in preferred stock.


CEOs should swim with cement flippers!
User currently offlineMalaysia From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 3342 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (8 years 6 months 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 5192 times:

Quoting Tu154m (Reply 13):
he would probably announce that he "voluntarily" reduced his salary to $500,000, down from $750,000 which includes 6.6 million in preferred stock.

he once did that but reduced it to about 46,000 or something at Continental

I dont know any real Frank Lorenzo right now, but I shall prepare so I can be the Frank Lorenzo of the Future Better get my Accounting up to shape, my Auditing skills up to shape, my management skills up to shape.......... oh I didnt go to an Ivy League School??? oh I dont come from a rich family??? it must be so hard to get there without either those two requirements.

[Edited 2006-02-16 23:48:12]

[Edited 2006-02-16 23:48:26]


There Are Those Who Believe That There May Yet Be Other Airlines Who Even Now Fight To Survive Beyond The Heavens
User currently offlineDeltaGator From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 6341 posts, RR: 13
Reply 15, posted (8 years 6 months 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 5172 times:

Quoting Ssides (Reply 12):
Wall Street is simply looking out for shareholders' well-being -- they own the company, after all.

Perhaps, but I tend to think they are more looking after their own pockets moreso than the lowly shareholder out there.

Quoting Ssides (Reply 12):
When it comes to long-term visions, no Wall Street pricing policy is theoretically designed to be myopic in its approach.

Hence the problem. I understand investing for the long term since I do it myself but to hammer a company for a penny miss off of the analyst's estimate is a bit much.

Quoting Ssides (Reply 12):
And, while a penny-a-share may not seem like much, it usually means upwards of $2 million in earnings for a big corporation such as an airline. Not do-or-die significant, but not chump-change either.

A million here, a million there and pretty soon we are talking about some real money.

Quoting Ssides (Reply 12):
That being said, stock prices are supposed to represent the current value of a company, particularly in terms of its earnings

Better sell anything you have in Google then.



"If you can't delight in the misery of others then you don't deserve to be a college football fan."
User currently offlineWesternA318 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 5652 posts, RR: 24
Reply 16, posted (8 years 6 months 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 5106 times:

Quoting DeltaGator (Reply 8):
It amazes me the standards that Wall Street holds companies to these days. Results must be immediate and not long term. If you miss their expectations by even a penny a share you get hammered. It is no wonder a company like Georgia-Pacific gave as one of their main reasons for being bought and take private was so they could invest in their infrastructure without being accountable to Wall Street who didn't see the big picture.

This is why I blast Analysts at every chance I can get (you should have seen me at the last Wings Club meeting) and just focus on the pulse of the company. Stockholders are great, we need their cash after all, but for hell's sake, let the damn airline be run by AIRLINE people!  stirthepot 



Next trip: SLC-DEN-SLC-PHX-JFK-LAX-SLC with my wife and oldest daughter. F9 to and from DEN, US to JFK, AA 321 and CR7
User currently offlineSkibum9 From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 1229 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (8 years 6 months 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 5105 times:

Quoting Tu154m (Reply 13):
ALL ALL ALL of Delta's management team could work for and get promoted by Mr Lorenzo. In fact, it wouldn't surprise me in the least bit to walk in and hear he has been hired as a "consultant". Oh yeah, he would probably announce that he "voluntarily" reduced his salary to $500,000, down from $750,000 which includes 6.6 million in preferred stock.

Come on now...DL's current management is working with the mess that Mullin left them. With that in mind, I would nominate Leo Mullin.

Along a similar line, you could nomintate Carl Icahn and what he did to TWA.

[Edited 2006-02-17 05:22:24]


Tailwinds!!!
User currently offlineWesternA318 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 5652 posts, RR: 24
Reply 18, posted (8 years 6 months 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 5105 times:

Mr. Frye, Mr. Hughes, Mr. Feldman, Mr. Drinkwater, Mr. Smith, Mr. Six, Mr. Hanshue, Mr. Bethune;

WHERE THE HELL ARE YOU GUYS!!!

We need more people in the industry like these guys. Hell, Frye and Drinkwater were constantly blasting Wall Street. They fought HARD for their companies, there's no one around like that now, save MAYBE Mr. Grinstein at DL (I'm also thinking about what he did with Western).



Next trip: SLC-DEN-SLC-PHX-JFK-LAX-SLC with my wife and oldest daughter. F9 to and from DEN, US to JFK, AA 321 and CR7
User currently offlineATCRick From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 772 posts, RR: 12
Reply 19, posted (8 years 6 months 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 5105 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Kerry "Alpine" Skeen needs to be on the list


natch!!
User currently offlineSsides From United States of America, joined Feb 2001, 4059 posts, RR: 21
Reply 20, posted (8 years 6 months 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 5074 times:

Quoting WesternA318 (Reply 16):
Stockholders are great, we need their cash after all, but for hell's sake, let the damn airline be run by AIRLINE people!

If stockholders simply looked the other way and let airlines be run by A.nutters, you'd have 777s and 747s on every route and $25 first-class upgrades everywhere. It would be great for us aviation enthusiasts, but it wouldn't take long for bankruptcy to set in.



"Lose" is not spelled with two o's!!!!
User currently offlineN757st From United States of America, joined Feb 2002, 360 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (8 years 6 months 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 4952 times:

Absolutely no question, Johnny O

User currently offlineOuboy79 From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 4581 posts, RR: 23
Reply 22, posted (8 years 6 months 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 4934 times:

Need we forget the "beloved" Stephen Wolf? I think the hell he brought Flying Tigers, United, and US Airways should amount to something.

User currently offlineJetjack74 From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 7407 posts, RR: 50
Reply 23, posted (8 years 6 months 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 4883 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting NWADC9 (Reply 4):
The fools at NWA, especially

That's an understatement.

Quoting NWADC9 (Reply 4):
Yeah I'd say Steenland is the closest, he's not even nearly as bad as Lorenzo.


I would say, this is the real the hand behind NWA, and up Doug Steenland's puppet-hole, Gary Wilson.

Quoting Isitsafenow (Reply 6):
Doug is trying to save NW at the benefit of raking lots of people over the coals. Many question the way Doug is trying to save the company.

Well, he's trying to save NWA in ways that will save his reputation, as well as his golden parachute. And he's selling out his employees in the process, for cheaper ones from China.



Made from jets!
User currently offlineDeltaGuy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (8 years 6 months 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 4806 times:

I join Skibum in nominating this asshole with a tooth vaneer almost as thick as the one on his management skills...



Bio: One of the new millenium's professional airline crashing executives, Mr. Mullin hailed from absolutely no solid previous airline experience, to CEO of the nation's major carriers. Mullin oversaw the addition of $50 million in bonuses for executive 'retention', $13 million of which he saw for himself, in addition to generous stock options. Don't worry, the man still lead by example by cutting his own $750,000 salary by 10% to carry his load of the sacrifices. In the mean time, he ensured the ruthless furlough of over a thousand pilots, and countless non-union employees. His actions earned him commendation, however, in front of Congress, as he testified for 9/11 committies whilst lobbying to get himself a potential future job with the DOT. Mr Mullin's long distinguished six year career lead to "retirement", and a new position mishandling Johnson & Johnson. His hobbies include employee abuse, money extortion, and frequent job shifting. His longtime idol and mentor was Joseph Stalin.

Favorite self quote, spoken after 9/11: “We're into uncharted waters here. I don't think any of us can really predict exactly when we'll come back. We are expected a lengthy amount of time before we get back to levels that would have prevailed otherwise.”

Sure is taking a lengthy amount of time huh?

DeltaGuy

[Edited 2006-02-18 07:27:45]

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