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Logan (BOS) Faces $17M Shortfall  
User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12961 posts, RR: 25
Posted (8 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 1955 times:

http://business.bostonherald.com/businessNews/view.bg?articleid=126418

Mainly due to being stiffed by DL and NW...


Inspiration, move me brightly!
27 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineAirbazar From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 8657 posts, RR: 10
Reply 1, posted (8 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 1928 times:

This statement caught my attention:
"Logan covers its costs through a landing fee charged per-plane, regardless of the number of passengers on it."

I hope this fee is at least based on weight of the plane. It wouldn't make much sende to have a 747 pay the same as a 737, especially in such a "tight" airport as Logan.


User currently offlineChrisNH From United States of America, joined Jun 1999, 4164 posts, RR: 2
Reply 2, posted (8 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 1881 times:

This is Massport being Massport. Some of the legacy carriers have been pulling back from MHT/PVD and instead focusing on BOS. The theory is, I guess, to poach those airports of their passengers and force them to Boston instead. But at what cost? If Massport is running a shortfall, and the airlines aren't ponying up, guess who will? Is it too far-fetched to expect a $7 Quarter-Pounder with Cheese, and $4 of that goes to Massport?

In the end, you have a carrier like JetBlue screaming about low fares. But when you factor in the total cost of flying--which includes driving there, parking there, and all the rest--JetBlue isn't a bargain any more. Same with AirTran. It is NOT all about the air fare. The air fare is one part, but if the rest of the experience is full of exhorbitant prices and fees, then that washes out any low-fare advantage.

As the industry goes more to little jets, then Massport gets 'em again. Massport knows that 'heavy' jets are the exception rather than the rule. Big widebodies have, to a large degree, given way to little Airbuses and lawn dart jets. Heck, a 757 is a BIG plane now! So Massport sees this and decides to charge them all the same. Is JetBlue with their 'little' 190s happy about this? NO! But they are the ones who decided that Logan is the place they oughta be. Are they going to eat those landing fees, or pass them along to the passengers? Can you say, 'rhetorical question?'

Massport used to charge, I believe, based on weight. But as planes got smaller and lighter, the Einsteins there decided a new model was in order: Charge 'em all the same. Massport needs to fill those coffers somehow (gotta pay for those booze cruises, you know, for all those hacks). Guess whose backs THAT'LL be on?

The 1990s aren't walking through those doors, folks. But Massport wants revenues to climb and climb and climb. Two choices: Charge the airlines (who in turn charge the passengers); or charge the passengers directly through obscene WiFi costs, $100 parking, and all the rest. And how much of an advantage is it to be a HEALTHY airline among a bunch of SICK ones? Obviously if carriers like DL and NW stiff Massport, guess where Massport is going to go?? Yep...the AirTrans and JetBlues...the supposed 'healthy' ones.

I would imagine that in private moments, the brass at JetBlue and AirTran are asking themselves, 'Tell us again why we went to Logan??'


Chris in NH


User currently offlineTom in NO From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 7194 posts, RR: 33
Reply 3, posted (8 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 1820 times:

Quoting Airbazar (Reply 1):
I hope this fee is at least based on weight of the plane.

Airports charge landing fees based upon the maximum landing weight of the aircraft.

Quoting ChrisNH (Reply 2):
If Massport is running a shortfall, and the airlines aren't ponying up, guess who will?

All tenants, airlines included, will make up the shortfall. Happens with every airport every year.....revenues below expenses for the year, shortfall will be added to billings the following fiscal year.....revenues exceed expenses, credits are given the following fiscal year. Over the long term, revenues usually equal expenses, at least that's the goal.

Tom at MSY



"The criminal ineptitude makes you furious"-Bruce Springsteen, after seeing firsthand the damage from Hurricane Katrina
User currently offlineAirbazar From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 8657 posts, RR: 10
Reply 4, posted (8 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 1786 times:

Quoting ChrisNH (Reply 2):
I would imagine that in private moments, the brass at JetBlue and AirTran are asking themselves, 'Tell us again why we went to Logan??'

Why? Because BOS is still the lastgest airport in a 250mile radius and that's where the money is. Chris, I respect your passion for MHT but your tirades against Massport and Logan are getting old. BOS is not and never will be a competitor to MHT and PVD. They all have their place in the New England travel industry.

You're forgetting that the great majority of people who use Logan, doesn't drive there and therefore couldn't care less what the price of parking is. Actually, their trip to the airport just got easier and cheaper with the Silver Line addition. The few who park there, probably don't pay out of their own wallet either. The proof is in the fact that the passenger numbers are up, to their highest level since pre-9/11, and at this pace, Logan will break the all-time record pretty soon.

Like Tom said, it happens to everyone. Sometimes you exceed the budget, sometimes you fall short. Recently DFW was on the news for the same exact reason. It's not just Massport.


User currently offlineB752OS From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 1322 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (8 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 1786 times:

Quoting Airbazar (Reply 4):
You're forgetting that the great majority of people who use Logan, doesn't drive there and therefore couldn't care less what the price of parking is. Actually, their trip to the airport just got easier and cheaper with the Silver Line addition. The few who park there, probably don't pay out of their own wallet either. The proof is in the fact that the passenger numbers are up, to their highest level since pre-9/11, and at this pace, Logan will break the all-time record pretty soon.

Like Tom said, it happens to everyone. Sometimes you exceed the budget, sometimes you fall short. Recently DFW was on the news for the same exact reason. It's not just Massport.

Not to mentioned that the drive to Logan has dropped thanks to the big dig. In the Globe the other day a few studies have now shown that an additional 800,000 people are now within a 40 minute or less drive time to the airport. BOS is, and will always be the largest airport in New England.


User currently offlineCadet57 From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 9085 posts, RR: 30
Reply 6, posted (8 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 1786 times:

Quoting Airbazar (Reply 4):
BOS is not and never will be a competitor to MHT and PVD.

What? That doesnt make sense, dont you mean MHT and PVD will never be competitors to BOS?

Quoting B752OS (Reply 5):
Not to mentioned that the drive to Logan has dropped thanks to the big dig. In the Globe the other day a few studies have now shown that an additional 800,000 people are now within a 40 minute or less drive time to the airport. BOS is, and will always be the largest airport in New England.

Sure it will, but airports like PVD and BDL are all now talking up international service. BDL is my home airport, and if this intl service takes off, Id choose it over BOS simpy because of less hassle eg: shorter customs lines, lower landing fees, short walks to gates/baggage, now takeoff waits, no delays. Even if that means a few $$ more. And im sure I am not the only western new englander who would do the same. BDL is just easier to deal with, even if it means a connection.



Doors open, right hand side, next stop is Springfield.
User currently offlineBoeingBus From United States of America, joined May 2004, 1597 posts, RR: 17
Reply 7, posted (8 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 1786 times:

This source is not credible as it’s from tabloid journalist who the only reason they sell papers is from sensationalist articles.

Boston Herald has ZERO credibility.

Quoting Airbazar (Reply 4):
Why? Because BOS is still the lastgest airport in a 250mile radius and that's where the money is. Chris, I respect your passion for MHT but your tirades against Massport and Logan are getting old. BOS is not and never will be a competitor to MHT and PVD. They all have their place in the New England travel industry.

 checkmark  Thank you!  checkmark 

Quoting Cadet57 (Reply 6):
What? That doesnt make sense, dont you mean MHT and PVD will never be competitors to BOS?



Actually they work together in many ways and in MassPorts point of view the regionals act as relievers to BOS. IMO, they are more complimentary than competiros as the chance for a new airport in MA/RI or NH is nill.



Airbus or Boeing - it's all good to me!
User currently offlineB752OS From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 1322 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (8 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 1786 times:

Quoting Cadet57 (Reply 6):
Sure it will, but airports like PVD and BDL are all now talking up international service. BDL is my home airport, and if this intl service takes off, Id choose it over BOS simpy because of less hassle eg: shorter customs lines, lower landing fees, short walks to gates/baggage, now takeoff waits, no delays. Even if that means a few $$ more. And im sure I am not the only western new englander who would do the same. BDL is just easier to deal with, even if it means a connection.

What types of International service are you talking about? The walks at BOS are not long to the baggage areas along with the gate areas. So are you saying that the possibility of some itnernational service, the only likely destinations would be Canda or perhaps some Caribbean destinations, will spurn growth out of BDL and PVD. Aside from that, you cannot count BDL as being in the eastern New England area, where you have PVD, BOS and MHT. I was under the assumption that most people around I-91 chose BDL anyways as it is a lot closer to them.


User currently offlineCadet57 From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 9085 posts, RR: 30
Reply 9, posted (8 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 1786 times:

Quoting B752OS (Reply 8):

Do a search, there is talk that a european carrier or an american carreir such as AA or CO will stary trans-atlantic service. And BDL has been a canadian and Carribean destination for quite sometime, hence the AC Jacc 1900's and Dash8's daily. And the AA '300's to SJU.... But then again, you BOS folks forget the state goes past Worchester so BDL would not show up on your radar.

Quoting B752OS (Reply 8):
was under the assumption that most people around I-91 chose BDL anyways as it is a lot closer to them.

We do, thats what I just said.

Did you even read my post?



Doors open, right hand side, next stop is Springfield.
User currently offlineB752OS From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 1322 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (8 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 1786 times:

Quoting Cadet57 (Reply 9):
Do a search, there is talk that a european carrier or an american carreir such as AA or CO will stary trans-atlantic service. And BDL has been a canadian and Carribean destination for quite sometime, hence the AC Jacc 1900's and Dash8's daily. And the AA '300's to SJU.... But then again, you BOS folks forget the state goes past Worchester so BDL would not show up on your radar.

I see you want to make some assumptions, BOS is not my home airport so I am not part of the "BOS folk" you talk about second in your post you never mentioned that people around I-91 choose BDL, you never made it clear cut that people around there make BDL thier first choice. Besides I was simply stating an assumption I had, theres no need to get upset.

I am well aware of the fact that both airports have service to Canada and BDL has service to its lone destination in the Caribbean, I should have phrased it as being additional destinations.

I highly doubt CO would start any trans- atlantic serice out of an airport they only have a handful of flights to.


User currently offlineCadet57 From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 9085 posts, RR: 30
Reply 11, posted (8 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 1779 times:

http://bradleyairport.com/flights/destinations.php

Im not saying anything else except for the fact that I DID say that folks along 1-91 use BDL, 1-91 is western NE, like I said. Now just because CO only has a "handful" of flights a day, doesn't mean they wouldent open up a, lets say BDL-LGW 757 flight. They go where the money, and least cost would be. Its not as if they are opening up an entire new station.

For another thing, if you searched the threads on BDL transatlantic, you'd see how the arguement was made that a service like this would benefit BOS and the NYC airports because it would relelive traffic congetion at those airports.



Doors open, right hand side, next stop is Springfield.
User currently offlineTappan From United States of America, joined Oct 1999, 1538 posts, RR: 41
Reply 12, posted (8 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 1773 times:

BoeingBus....
I am a news photographer on staff at THE BOSTON HERALD (13 yrs full time)
I can tell you that you are wrong about the Herald (except for the front page glaring headlines). I can tell you that our business section (where this story broke- ONE DAY before the Globe) routinely kicks the Globe's arse....

Mark Garfinkel


User currently offlineAirPortugal310 From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 3717 posts, RR: 2
Reply 13, posted (8 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 1743 times:

Quoting ChrisNH (Reply 2):
would imagine that in private moments, the brass at JetBlue and AirTran are asking themselves, 'Tell us again why we went to Logan??'

Then explain to me why both are attempting to increase capacity at Logan at an alarming rate....more so JetBlue?

If AirTran could get gates easier....watch out for them.

Quoting Cadet57 (Reply 9):
Do a search, there is talk that a european carrier or an american carreir such as AA or CO will stary trans-atlantic service.

There is also talk of me building an airport in my backyard, but its only talk...
Rumor and opinion dont count for shit until anything is official.

Quoting Cadet57 (Reply 11):
For another thing, if you searched the threads on BDL transatlantic, you'd see how the arguement was made that a service like this would benefit BOS and the NYC airports because it would relelive traffic congetion at those airports.

So wait a minute..
using that logic of yours, doesnt that contradict what all you PVD and MHT cheerleaders say all along? That BOS is too much a drive (wah) for everyone else not living in and around Boston?

So now driving to Bradley from NYC is a considerably better alternative?
And isnt it true that CO is highly successful out of EWR due to much diversity that thrives in and around NYC?

And furthermore, BDL doesnt (from the CO schedule I looked at for tomorrow) fly to IAH direct, has 2 flights to CLE all day and somethinglike 3-4 EWR flights....Using that, where are passengers supposed to come from?

CO cant depend on filling planes from only the locals.

And thats the rant of the day.



I sell airplanes and airplane accessories
User currently offlineAirPortugal310 From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 3717 posts, RR: 2
Reply 14, posted (8 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 1742 times:

Oh...and Mark:

The Boston Herald is my favorite newspaper ever.

Its the only paper I read...there is no reason to suspect that anything in there is incorrect.

Furthermore, those front page headlines are always the one thing that I look forward too (especially when people are doing drugs on the cover)!

HAHA keep the good airline pictures rolling in.

Bruno
9K BOS



I sell airplanes and airplane accessories
User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12961 posts, RR: 25
Reply 15, posted (8 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 1742 times:

Quoting ChrisNH (Reply 2):
This is Massport being Massport.



Quoting ChrisNH (Reply 2):
The 1990s aren't walking through those doors, folks.

Holy sports metaphors, Batman!  Smile

As for the ensuing discussion, call me a country bumpkin, but I'm one of the great unwashed masses living outside of the 128 belt (the 495 belt, too!) that really does not like anything about BOS, except watching it disappear underneath me as the plane gains altitude. I always worry about whether I'll hit some massive traffic jam, or whether I'll find a place to park, or whether I can afford to park, or whether or not my car will be there when I return. But I'll throw caution to the wind when I really need to get to Europe, or when there's a particularly convienient and cheap flight (for instance the B6 non-stop BOS-SJC).



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineTappan From United States of America, joined Oct 1999, 1538 posts, RR: 41
Reply 16, posted (8 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 1726 times:

Thanks Bruno (Air Portugal)
Mark Garfinkel


User currently offlineAirPortugal310 From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 3717 posts, RR: 2
Reply 17, posted (8 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 1725 times:

Quoting Revelation (Reply 15):
I always worry about whether I'll hit some massive traffic jam

The recent DOT "traffic cities of America" report...

Boston did not even make the top 12!

Which I will concede even surprised the hell out of me...and I commute 5 days a week to the airport!



I sell airplanes and airplane accessories
User currently offlineAirbazar From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 8657 posts, RR: 10
Reply 18, posted (8 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 1723 times:

Quoting Cadet57 (Reply 9):
But then again, you BOS folks forget the state goes past Worchester so BDL would not show up on your radar.

There's more past Worchester?  Smile
Seriously though, something like 80% of the state's population lives East or Worchester so it's not that bad of an assumption.

PVD already has and has had trans-atlantic service for many years and you don't exactly see airlines lining up to server PVD. MHT I truly believe it could support limitted tans-atlantic, especially charters. And BDL definitely because it's so isolated between BOS and NYC I'm surprised it doesn't already have trans-atlantic service.

Anyway, how did this thread go from "$17Mil shortfall" to trans-atlantic service from BDL?  Smile


User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12961 posts, RR: 25
Reply 19, posted (8 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 1709 times:

Quoting Cadet57 (Reply 9):
But then again, you BOS folks forget the state goes past Worchester so BDL would not show up on your radar.

In my experience you are giving too much credit to the Bostonians. I work in a building right off 495, and all the Bostonians bitch mightily about having to go any further than 128. Then again, they pay a few hundred bucks a month just to have a parking space, so I just smile every time they complain. Of course I bitch mightily every time I have to go inside the 128 belt, but somehow they have no sympathy for me!
Edit to add: I'm not a huge fan of the Herald, but I have no problem trusting their content as much as any other news source,and agree that they quite often beat the Globe's arrogant butts.

[Edited 2006-02-17 16:55:49]


Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineSeeTheWorld From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 1325 posts, RR: 4
Reply 20, posted (8 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 1704 times:

CO or AA flying trans-Atlantic from BDL? Unlikely at best.

Here are ALL the other point-to-point transatlantic flight on legacy carriers in the Feb 2006 OAG:

AA - BOS-SNN (huge local market, huge ethnic population)
AA - RDU-LGW (previous AA hub service)

That's it! No other point-to-point trans-Atlantic service.

THESE DON'T COUNT

NW - BOS-AMS (AMS is really a hub)
NW - SEA-AMS (see above)

So, tell me this:

What makes anyone think there are point-to-point trans-Atlantic markets around the corner for anyone (other than from a HUGE O&D like BOS)? and

Why would BDL necessarily be the next de-facto point-to-point city for trans-Atlantic service vs. some other large Northeastern city?


User currently offlinePHLBOS From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 7558 posts, RR: 23
Reply 21, posted (8 years 10 months 1 week 1 day ago) and read 1684 times:

Quoting Airbazar (Reply 18):
Quoting Cadet57 (Reply 9):
But then again, you BOS folks forget the state goes past Worchester so BDL would not show up on your radar.

There's more past Worchester?

Moot point here, but the city is Worcester. There's no 'h' in Worcester.



"TransEastern! You'll feel like you've never left the ground because we treat you like dirt!" SNL Parady ad circa 1981
User currently offlineChrisNH From United States of America, joined Jun 1999, 4164 posts, RR: 2
Reply 22, posted (8 years 10 months 1 week 1 day ago) and read 1655 times:

I have to make sure my stance regarding Logan is put in proper context. First, I'll admit to being a 'homer.' That is, I live in New Hampshire and am an advocate of MHT. That's no surprise to people who know me, and I started the MHT Yahoo Group back in 1999 which now has over 150 members.

The 'proper context' is this: I like Logan Airport. I used to live in Concord, MA when I was in my teen years. I loved going there just to ride to the observation deck in the control tower. Still one of the best places to watch planes EVER! So, I like the airport and have flown out of the airport countless times. I really have nothing against the place.

What I do not like is Massport. You can like Logan and dislike Massport, as legions of people do. It's just the way they behave down there. Their appetite for money is exceeded only by their arrogance in demanding it. Massport has a reputation, and it's a 'richly' deserved one (pun intended).

So, no, I have no 'disdain' for Logan airport. Massport's Managerial and operational tactics aside, it's a swell place.

Chris in NH


User currently offlineStarrion From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 1130 posts, RR: 2
Reply 23, posted (8 years 10 months 1 week 22 hours ago) and read 1602 times:

The Herald has a knack for finding out where the money went in state Government. The Globe only copies them when the Herald really hits a nerve. The Herald has quite a bit more credibility with us locals than Zero.

MHT and PVD have their bennies. Much cheaper parking and it takes about the same for me to drive to MHT (around 50 miles) or BOS (around 12 miles) because of the parking hassles and traffic going into town. Parking is cheaper at MHT and fares aren't too bad either.



Knowledge Replaces Fear
User currently offlineChrisNH From United States of America, joined Jun 1999, 4164 posts, RR: 2
Reply 24, posted (8 years 10 months 1 week 22 hours ago) and read 1586 times:

There was another story (not related to this one) about how angry Massport got at domestic carriers that cancelled so many flights last Sunday. They chided the carriers with things like, 'Well, British Airways managed to get into Logan during the storm...Lufthansa did; Aer Lingus did; Virgin did...but you guys couldn't.'

That got the domestic carriers mad, because, of course, it's a whole different issue when it comes to their flights versus the transatlantic flights coming in from overseas. You know, crews that might be Boston-based and couldn't make it to Logan because of the snow...stuff like that. Stuff the BA people didn't have to worry about as much.

So, Massport has now riled up many of their 'tenants' on the domestic side with rather unfounded accusations about how they dealt with the snowstorm.

It'll be interesting to see if this has any ramifications. My guess is 'short term,' yes; 'long-term,' no.

Chris


25 PHLBOS : I think the question here is, "Does Massport need either a lesson in geography or basic knowledge of storm system movements?" Most weather systems (&
26 B752OS : There was a report that just came out that mentioned how the Big Dig is working, and working very good. They also mentioned that an additional 800,00
27 Post contains links and images Tappan : B752OS, I am not sure that Globe pictures are much better....Check out these stellar pics by a Herald photog----> http://www.pictureboston.com
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