Keesje From Netherlands, joined Apr 2001, 10189 posts, RR: 52 Posted (3 years 11 months 4 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 33710 times:
Boeing, Randy Baseler and many members here on a.net know the Boeing 747-8i will carry 450 passengers. This 450 number is used in comparison with A380 seat numbers released by the A380 customers (500-550).
Many times Ive been attacked for suggesting this 450 seat count for the 747-8i is unrealistic. "People making their money with it", Boeing brochures and Randy Baseler all say 450. Who the hell do I think I am to question this?
Well.. if we look at current cabin specification of major 3/4 class carriers using the Boeing 747-400, we see:
SQ : 375 seats
CX : 345-385 seats
AF : 380 seats
BA : 291-360 seats
UA : 347 seats
LH : 330 seats
QF : 382 seats
- We know the 747-8 will be 3.6 meters / 12 ft longer then the 747-400, facilitating 30-40 additional seats.
- We know major international A380 customers will put 500-550 seats into their aircraft, implementing product upgrades of First / Business Class and frills like bars.
- Using these same product specifications on the Boeing 747-8i takes away space compared to current Boeing 747-400 cabin specifications. E.g. a single bar can easily take 6 premium or 16 economy seats. (see VS 744s).
Taking the average seatcounts of current Boeing 747-400s, adding the extra seats of the Boeing 747-8i and using equal product specifications I think 400 seats will be an ambitious seatcount for the Boeing 747-8i.
Leaves me with two questions:
* Why does Boeing use the 450 seats count in its public comparisons with the A380? Do they expect airlines to reduce their product specs for the B747-8i (pitch/ galleys/catering/lavatories) or are they taking into account those nice additional seats above the cabin ceiling?
* How come a.net members that seem to know every detail about aircraft specs accept this Boeing 747-8i 450 seatcount in every comparison and attack anyone questioning them?
Trex8 From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 3077 posts, RR: 19 Reply 1, posted (3 years 11 months 4 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 33623 times:
Quoting Keesje (Thread starter): * Why does Boeing use the 450 seats count in its public comparisons with the A380? Do they expect airlines to reduce their product specs for the B747-8i (pitch/ galleys/catering/lavatories) or are they taking into account those nice additional seats above the cabin ceiling?
because just as A does, it helps make the numbers look better and boost their case no matter what criteria you want to compare!
Quoting Keesje (Thread starter): How come a.net members that seem to know every detail about aircraft specs accept this Boeing 747-8i 450 seatcount in every comparison and attack anyone questioning them?
because they are just as biased as anyone else who feels strongly enough to want to put something on the internet for others to see! or maybe they think large J class cabins with 60 in pitch will disappear and only 29in pitch Y in the whole plane!
NorCal From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 1884 posts, RR: 3 Reply 3, posted (3 years 11 months 4 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 33552 times:
Quoting Keesje (Thread starter): Well.. if we look at current cabin specification of major 3/4 class carriers using the Boeing 747-400
I have yet to hear of an A380 carrier putting in 555 seats in their a/c, most are under 500. Most everyone knows that what Boeing and Airbus say their a/c can seat is unrealistic so I don't even see the point in this thread.
The A380 won't be able to seat 555 people with premium first/business and bars, the argument goes both ways.
You really have something against him don't you? He at least made a fair comparison i.e. 450 747-8 vs 555 A380. Its not like he is comparing an all Y layout to a 3-class layout.
"Rapid decompression leads to involuntary exiting of the Aircraft"
Starrion From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 916 posts, RR: 0 Reply 4, posted (3 years 11 months 4 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 33522 times:
Right.
The manufacturer defines the # of seats that support their case. Real 747-8's will have less than the Boeing optimum just as A380's will have less than the Airbus Optimum. I think everyone understands this. The underlying assertion that the 747-8 will be marginally more efficient on a similar ratio of seating will remain.
On a per seat basis, if you have a one-class 748 vs a three-class A388 the scenario favors Boeing. Reverse it and it favors Airbus.
Neither airplane will come out with the number of seats in the spec. It's up to the airlines and they will put the number in that their product requires.
TaromA380 From Romania, joined Sep 2005, 302 posts, RR: 0 Reply 6, posted (3 years 11 months 4 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 33378 times:
Quoting Starrion (Reply 4): On a per seat basis, if you have a one-class 748 vs a three-class A388 the scenario favors Boeing. Reverse it and it favors Airbus.
On a per seat basis what ? CASM ? Business pax pay *LOT* more than Y pax.
BBJs are a CASM nightmare then, thus unprofitable ?
There are numbers, just marketing numbers, most of A and B marketing bla-blas.
DfwRevolution From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 39 posts, RR: 54 Reply 7, posted (3 years 11 months 4 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 33342 times:
Quoting Keesje (Thread starter): Why does Boeing use the 450 seats count in its public comparisons with the A380?
Because Airbus uses a lower-density configuration for the A380 as well. The A380 isn't a "550 seat aircraft" in most airline configurations either. Most will be 450-550, except for EK's longhaul LCC.
For the record, Airbus is notorious for inflating seat counts via high-density configurations. I'm awaiting your condimnation of the A346 seat count...
Quoting Keesje (Thread starter): Do they expect airlines to reduce their product specs for the B747-8i (pitch/ galleys/catering/lavatories) or are they taking into account those nice additional seats above the cabin ceiling?
They're also taking into account a 1-2 meter stretch
Quoting Keesje (Thread starter): How come a.net members that seem to know every detail about aircraft specs accept this Boeing 747-8i 450 seatcount in every comparison and attack anyone questioning them?
Because A.net is a grand conspiracy of U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission agents trying to destroy the public confidence in our socialist, European rivals via FUD campaigns regarding the seat counts of Airbus products and their respective counterparts. Got me
You’ve raised this “point†numerous times and each time you’ve been given the same, logical answer. Is it a European thing to continue inciting various thoughts thinking eventually you will win re: cartoons?
FlyDreamliner From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 2685 posts, RR: 21 Reply 8, posted (3 years 11 months 4 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 33301 times:
Here's the thing. It's all A and B advertising. A380 is bigger than 747-8. No one doubts this. I don't think Boeing has ever disputed that they are building an aircraft 100 seats smaller. Whether that is 555 vs 450 or 400 vs 500 or 350 vs 450, doesn't make a difference. It's all airline layout, anyhow.
"Let the world change you, and you can change the world"
AA737-823 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 4125 posts, RR: 10 Reply 9, posted (3 years 11 months 4 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 33253 times:
So basically all you've told me is that if you put a bar in the 748i it doesn't hold as many people as one without a bar.
Thanks, but I think I could have figured that out on my own.
Once upon a time Airbus was trying to get 853 volunteers for the evacuation test (which still hasn't happened... interesting. Maybe they are afraid the wings would break with all those people using the overwing exits!). IF they were successful, I would not have any problem with Airbus labelling the A380 as an 850-seat aircraft. Because it is.
If you put 450 seats in a 748i, it's a 450 seat aircraft. I think the likelihood of finding 450 seats in a 748 is far greater than the likelihood of finding 853 seats in an A380.
But you're entitled to your own ideas.
For unto us a Child is born- unto us a Son is given!
FlyingHippo From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 571 posts, RR: 4 Reply 11, posted (3 years 11 months 4 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 33209 times:
Keesje,
I really do not believe an intelligent person with more than above average civil aviation knowledge would post something like this...
Airbus puts the number of seats for A388 at ~550, I'd like to know how many airlines will actually put 550 seats in the Whalejet. SQ and QF has already announced they will not put over 480 seats. We haven't heard from KE, MH or LH. Someone posted that AF will put 540 seats, and some versions of EK's A388 will have over 600. I'd like to see where EK goes with their 600+ seat A388 and see if it goes over 8+ hours at a time.
Some airlines put 400 seats on their 744s, heck, JL even put 500 seats on their 773s. It all depends on what the airline intends on flying that particular model. I think the best way to judge the capacity of an airplane is to AVERAGE the number of seats on ALL the airlines that operates that model, that's the only semi-accurate way, IMO...
So, does anyone care to average out the number of seats of airlines operating:
(For the sake of it, let's just do the big airlines with a significant fleet of the models listed: MH, UA, NW, CO, EK, CI, CX, SQ, AC, DL, LH, AF, JL, NH, KE, BR, KL, BA, QF, TAM, AM... these airlines flies should carry a significant percentage of world's international travelers and files the models listed, should be enough to get a good picture...)
Keesje From Netherlands, joined Apr 2001, 10189 posts, RR: 52 Reply 12, posted (3 years 11 months 4 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 33180 times:
Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 8): Whether that is 555 vs 450 or 400 vs 500 or 350 vs 450, doesn't make a difference.
Yes it does. The lower the number of seats the more it makes a difference.
I think a 380 vs 500 seat count is more realistic with the same product specs and taking into the account the 40% extra floor space the a380 has. So about 30% more (wider) seats.
If one sticks to 450 vs 555 the difference is 23%, this has a huge effect in any comparison, but one in bending the facts.
Ikramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 18610 posts, RR: 59 Reply 14, posted (3 years 11 months 4 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 33136 times:
I had a longer post which got lost when my computer shut off, so I'll keep it short and sweet.
Keesje- you are proving that you are dense. You continually post wrong information, or fail to grasp the simplest of concepts when it comes to tables, charts, etc.
You are not wrong to say the 748i has an IN SERVICE capacity of about 400 seats in 3/4 class (an estimate). But you continually try to make the false claim that the A388 is a true 555 seater and thus the economic comparisons between the two are not valid, and that's where people get on your case, and rightfully so.
We can tell already that the IN SERVICE seat count average on the 388 will be about 490 seats in 3/4 class by what various customers are going to do.
So, to explain the value of 450 seats or 555 seats, I will give some analogies. In the USA, even the densest high school student at least has to learn what an analogy is.
450 seats is to the 748i as 555 seats is to the 388.
400 seats is to the 748i as 490 seats is to the 388.
Here are some simple ratios:
400/450 = 88+%
490/555 = 88+%
In other words, in the real world, the 388 will hold roughly the same ratio of seats to it's claimed capacity as the 748i is likely too. We don't know for sure since nobody has a 388 in service and nobody has even ordered a 748i, but that's what history and the data tells us.
Nobody on these forums is trying to pull the wool over your eyes, but you still can't see the simple, and I mean SIMPLE, point of quoting 450 seats. It's for comparison purposes only, to provide a baseline for payloads, ranges, etc. IN SERVICE, every airline has their own tables. But you can't easily compare every airline in the world. That's why Boeing and Airbus publish these general tables and charts.
Period. End of story.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
FlyingHippo From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 571 posts, RR: 4 Reply 15, posted (3 years 11 months 4 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 33093 times:
Quoting Keesje (Reply 12): If one sticks to 450 vs 555 the difference is 23%, this has a huge effect in any comparison, but one in bending the facts.
Yes, it's a huge percentage, but that's not exactly the point.
The point is: WHAT IS THE CASM WHEN B748I AND A388 CARRIES 100% OF MANUFACTURER'S SUGGESTED SEATING??
To dumb it down for you a bit: What is the CASM of A388 carrying 550 passengers vs CASM of B748I carrying 450 passengers?
What is the CASM of A388 carrying 90% of 550 passengers vs. CASM of B748I carrying 90% of 450 passengers,
then you compare it at 80%, at 70%, 60%, etc etc...
Blackbird1331 From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 1880 posts, RR: 1 Reply 16, posted (3 years 11 months 4 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 32934 times:
This is an argument for stock holders. Passengers just want to get from point A to point B in the maximum comfort level. Which aircraft does it best?
Cameras shoot pictures. Guns shoot people. They have the guns.
Elvis777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 359 posts, RR: 4 Reply 18, posted (3 years 11 months 4 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 32934 times:
Hi Keesje!!!!!
Its been a while!
I still think you secretely want to join my leper colony, I'll root for Boeing and you'll cheer for Eads. C'mon just admit that you want Eads to win and lets move on.
Anyways, I think that several people in this thread have shown your statements are not really valid so I will approach it from another point. Lets suppose then that what you say is 100% correct. What then? Well then just sit back and enjoy the orders that are sure to come EADS's way. After all it will be self evident that Boeing's product will not affect the whalejets order book. So why not relax a bit and bask in the knowledge that the whalejet is not Eads' folly! Dont worry what a bunch of silly folks on a a forum think. Jsut watch those orders for the whalejet roll in and watch how the Intercontinental becomes part of history!
Peace
Elvis777
Oh yeah Johnny, why call for this thread to be deleted? If you dont care for the topic dont read it. its kind of like a buffett. eat (read0 as little or as much as you want of the things you want to read!
Leper,Unevolved, Misplaced and Unrepentant SportsFanatic and a ZOMBIE as well
Johnny From Sweden, joined Jan 2008, 0 posts, RR: 0 Reply 19, posted (3 years 11 months 4 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 32934 times:
Hi Elvis.Do not worry. I am back...
I think the seat argument ist correct.
Boeing is offering 10-abreast Eco-seating in 70´s style.Airbus is offering state of the art 10-abreast Eco-seating.EVERY Eco-Seat is around 4cm wider.
So,if you would like to have the same standart on the B748 as on the A388, you have to put only 9 seats in each Eco-row.This means if i check the figures above from the seat-chart i have 341-Eco seats minus 10 percent, so around 307 seats in Eco in a A388-Standart.Or a Triple-Seven or 787-Standart as well!
So the COMPARABLE capacity is reduced by 34 passengers to 416 pax from 450!!!
Hamlet69 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 2317 posts, RR: 56 Reply 20, posted (3 years 11 months 4 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 32934 times:
Quoting Keesje (Thread starter): This 450 number is used in comparison with A380 seat numbers released by the A380 customers (500-550).
Quoting Keesje (Thread starter): We know major international A380 customers will put 500-550 seats into their aircraft
Quoting Keesje (Thread starter): Many times Ive been attacked for suggesting this 450 seat count for the 747-8i is unrealistic.
You don't get attacked for claiming the 748 won't carry 450 seats in service, you get attacked for continuing to claim the A380 will carry 500-555. See the difference?
For instance, the first airline you list under the 744 seat count is SQ (375). The last I heard, SQ was putting in 480 seats on their A380's, while QF was going to be at 501.
For the sake of everyone else's sanity, why don't you simply accept that the 748 is a "400-450" seat aircraft and the A380 is a "500-555" seat bird. Or does that destroy your bias?
SNATH From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 2876 posts, RR: 38 Reply 21, posted (3 years 11 months 4 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 32934 times:
Quoting Johnny (Reply 19): So,if you would like to have the same standart on the B748 as on the A388, you have to put only 9 seats in each Eco-row.This means if i check the figures above from the seat-chart i have 341-Eco seats minus 10 percent, so around 307 seats in Eco in a A388-Standart.Or a Triple-Seven or 787-Standart as well!
Once upon the time, airlines cared about passenger comfort and had 9-abreast sitting on their B747s. Now, they all have 10-abreast. A 3-5-3 A380 on the not-so-distant future is actually a real possibility (as is a 9-abreast B787).
Tony
"4 engines for too long!", Randy Baseler on Airbus
Abba From Denmark, joined Jun 2005, 780 posts, RR: 0 Reply 22, posted (3 years 11 months 4 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 32934 times:
Quoting NorCal (Reply 3): I have yet to hear of an A380 carrier putting in 555 seats in their a/c, most are under 500. Most everyone knows that what Boeing and Airbus say their a/c can seat is unrealistic so I don't even see the point in this thread.
Some seem only to know that Airbus is haveing less seats...
Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 14): 450 seats is to the 748i as 555 seats is to the 388.
400 seats is to the 748i as 490 seats is to the 388.
Excatly the point that Keesje has been making all the time!
As he says:
Quoting Keesje (Thread starter): Boeing, Randy Baseler and many members here on a.net know the Boeing 747-8i will carry 450 passengers. This 450 number is used in comparison with A380 seat numbers released by the A380 customers (500-550)
In other words: the difference between the 748 and the 388 is about 100 seats and not about 50 (or less) as some seems to have few problems in making themselves believe.
Johnny From Sweden, joined Jan 2008, 0 posts, RR: 0 Reply 23, posted (3 years 11 months 4 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 32934 times:
Hi Tony,
i agree completely with you about a possible 3-5-3 on the A388.
The only thing i mentioned was that the B748 is no real 450-seater in todays point of comfort,but the A388 is a real 550-Seater and offers the same level of comfort like a B777 with 9 seats or a B787/A350 with 8 seats respectively.
The B748 is a 1970s design which has no comparable comfort anymore.ALL other modern longhaul airliners (A330/340/350, B787 and B777) offer better comfort with wider seats in ECO.And i think that is really important!
@ABBA : hey,there is really somebody who reads the facts and not only randys newsletter with the wrong point of view.
Aviator27 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 24, posted (3 years 11 months 4 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 32934 times:
I think the seat count question has some merit. Like a lot of people have pointed out, the seat count is based on customer configuration. So people have to take into account the pitch and seat width. For anyone who thinks that an extra 1 inch of seat width isn't a big deal, they should try sitting in a middle seat of a B737. So how does Boeing come up with 450 seats for the B747-8? How does Airbus come up with 850 seats for the A380. I suspect tourist class. Neither airplane is certified to these specifications yet. However, if both manufacturers are successful in their efforts, then I don't see how the B747-8 can have a lower CASM than the A380. Strictly based on a single class tourist layout, of course. I think in the end, as most airlines have suggested, the A380 will most likely have less than 500 seats with tons of amenities which the airlines hope they can charge more money for. Personally I prefer amenities on long haul. If you try to put the same amenities in the B747-8, I wonder how many seats you would have? I suspect in the low 300 range or less. Then again, I'm no expert on aircraft seat configurations. Keep the discussion healthy and lets not fall for propaganda from either manufacturer (because they are both guilty of it).
25 Hamlet69: Oh my God! This thread is getting ridiculous! Okay, first, Abba, did you read any of the responses to this thread? Of course not, because if you had,
26 Zeke: CX 744/74J 12F/47J/324Y = 383 and 12F/65J/268Y = 345 average across fleet is 375 QF best I have been able to work out they have 5 layouts on the 744
27 Iwok: I think there was some talk of putting the flat beds and extra galleys upstairs on the Intercontinental. iwok
28 Glacote: I don't understand why this thread has grown that long. Advertised numbers claim 35% more floor space for the A388 but less than 20% more seats than t
29 DfwRevolution: It's not "fishy" at all, it's really quite simple. It has nothing to do with A380 "first class bars," luxourius fittings, etc. The Airbus A380 sample
30 Abba: I think you better read Keesje's text again! I seriously doubt you got his point right!! Which is what Keesjehas been saying all along. Boeing cannot
31 Nirvarma: And where is this supposed comparison?
32 Shenzhen: I think that one needs to understand is that part of the floor space on the A380 is like the floor space in the attic of a house. Not all the floor s
33 QFA001: How quickly history is forgotten. Airbus' generic 555-seat A380 configuration is based on the same IATA category rules as Boeing used for their generi
34 Larspl: it really doesn't matter if we! compare the A380 and the 748i as 550 vs 450 or something else. if an airline want to buy an airplane bigger than a 747
35 Johnny: @ QFA001 "In any like-for-like configuration, the A380 is going to seat 20-25% more people than the B747-8. Airline studies will be showing that right
36 DistantHorizon: A 1960s design, actually. This thread is NOT ridiculous. Actually, the only thing I find ridiculous is the way some people like to play with the numb
37 DL021: dang, Keesje seems to need to post items that attempt to make Boeing look bad, no matter what the facts are. It's not just cheering for Airbus, it's t
38 Keesje: The A388 has something like 50% more floorspace then the B747-400 and about 40% more then the 747-8. However not all space can be used for seats on th
39 Oryx: I do not think so. I guess you are referring to the side walls of the upper deck. I do not know how Airbus did the calculations but there are bins fo
40 787engineer: I like how many of the A cheerleaders opted to ignore this fact in their arguments. Look its really pretty simple, the A380 has about 40% more floor
41 Zeke: From http://www.qantasvacations.com/press-airbus-a380.htm and
42 787engineer: Hmmm, I haven't seen most of these numbers, so please excuse me for asking but can you give me a link? The 450 vs. 607 is the only one that looks rea
43 DfwRevolution: You haven't been attacked for questioning Randy no-one-gives-a-flip Baseler, you've been attacked because you're selectivly choosing facts then makin
44 AndesSMF: Another mantra that has been repeated for the last FIVE years, and I have yet to hear 380 users telling us that us sardines are getting a larger can!
45 DfwRevolution: It's brutally simple; it's just difficult for some to understand: The 744 and 748 are not over-inflated capacities, they are industry standard and in
46 AndesSMF: Why do you think they would undercount their seats?
47 Jaysit: That schematic of the 748 is absurd. No major airline flying 744s packs 18 First Class pax into Zone A of a 744, plus the seating density of the J cla
48 DfwRevolution: And the A388 will commonly be found with 20 F class seats? It may very well be totally inaccurate of how the aircraft is actually used by customers,
49 Trex8: tell that to Boeing, its from their website!!!
50 Poitin: Keesje, is that you who is explaining the Transporter Beam on the Boeing 748?
51 Trex8: I just thought of something, I know there are cart lifts but are there lifts capable of taking like a wheelchair up to the top level???
53 QFA001: Sure. Having peroused some more data, I would refine my "20-25%" spread to a 23-28% spread. (In other words, A380-800 will be 23-28% more seats in li
54 ODwyerPW: Poitin, Thank you very much for the moment of Levity! I had a tough day today dealing with nonpaying customers, so I visited A.Net only to stumble upo
55 Poitin: Ah, me lad, do you have time for a pint? And you too, Keesje? I think you need one or two. I too got carried away and realize me mistake. We are not
56 Glacote: Won't pollute this thread with this. I promise to contribute if you start a thread on this though. Could you please add figures to your reasoning? Ag
57 Flyabunch: I seem to remember when the 380 was first announced they mentioned that the initial capacity was 500+ and that they would be able to go much higher on
58 QFA001: I altered the numbers: The original 20-25% was a guess. When I took a calculator out, I found out that my guess was off. It was 23-28%. The data is b
59 Glacote: I don't know what an LOPA is. Could you explain this to me (us) - and in particular how this concept helps loosing more than one third of available f
60 Johnny: Come on (some) guys... Everybody knows Boeing is trading comfort for Pax-Numbers on the B748.This airplane is not able to offer state of the art flyin
61 Leskova: I'd apreciate it if you'd stop using such idiotic generalizations (just as everyone else using the same dumb type of generalization - regardless of w
63 Boeing7E7: You can throw the A-350 in there too.
64 Trex8: what are you talking about, in the only A350 seat plans I have seen so far which widebodyphotog posted here and sourced from Airbus, the A358 is esse
65 OldAeroGuy: With regard to generic seat counts, to quote Bill Murray, "It just doesn't matter!!". Trust the airlines to sort out the best operational situation fo
66 Trex8: for all those who get excited about what A380 seat counts are or are not! MH - 531 http://www.airfleets.net/forum/topic-672.htm
67 Jaysit: But that isn't the issue here. The seat pitch Boeing assumes as it packs 18 F Class seats into Zone A of a 744 is 60 inches. No airline with a First
68 Moparman: Very well said to the both of you. AA737-823 and DfwRevolution, I have added both of you to my RU list.
69 Keesje: I think no one gives too much about general seatcounts themselves however : everyone is playing around with seat mile costs, seat kilometre costs, wei
70 Shenzhen: Any bar could be installed above economy, in the skyloft. A galley can also be installed above the economy seating, freeing up additional seats on th
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