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A380 Tail Section: Empty?  
User currently offlineRolfen From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 1809 posts, RR: 2
Posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 14309 times:

I was looking at this a380 drawing posted y AirbusA346 in another thread:
http://www.flightglobal.com/assets/getasset.aspx?itemid=9140

It seems that the tail interior of the tail area is ... empty? Could this be wasted space?


rolf
70 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offline777DadandJr From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 1516 posts, RR: 12
Reply 1, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 14277 times:

I don't think it's wasted space. I wouldn't doubt that Airbus has left a space for an auxillary fuel tank. Plus, in the extreme rear of the tail, you have the APU. I'm sure it's not just empty space. I would imagine that the structure in the tail would have to be quite substantial as well.

Russ



My glass is neither 1/2 empty nor 1/2 full, rather, the glass itself is twice as big as it should be.
User currently offlineAAgent From United States of America, joined Mar 2001, 560 posts, RR: 14
Reply 2, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 14224 times:

Quoting 777DadandJr (Reply 1):
I wouldn't doubt that Airbus has left a space for an auxillary fuel tank.

Although not impossible, it would be extremely unlikely that Airbus would place an auxillary fuel tank in the tail section as it would severely impact the weight and balance of the aircraft. Simply put, it would make the aircraft tail heavy. Typically, fuel is stored as close to the aircraft's center of gravity as possible.

Best Regards,
AAgent



War Eagle!
User currently offlineSmokeyrosco From Ireland, joined Dec 2005, 2112 posts, RR: 13
Reply 3, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 14148 times:

Quoting Rolfen (Thread starter):
It seems that the tail interior of the tail area is ... empty? Could this be wasted space?

is there any Aircraft that has a full tail interior?



John Hancock
User currently offlineNAV20 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 9909 posts, RR: 36
Reply 4, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 14106 times:

There have been constant rumours for more than a year that the A380 looks like being between 4 and 7 tons (or tonnes) over its target weight. This, if that is how things turn out, would affect carrying capacity, or range, or both.

It has also been reported that Airbus are using different engines on the production models, to provide extra thrust. This could again entail extra weight, either that of the engines themselves or the extra fuel they are likely to require.

Both the first two recipient airlines (Singapore and Qantas) have announced reduction of heir planned passenger loads from 505 to 475 or thereabouts. No reasons were given, but I believe that 30 fewer passengers would amount to a weight saving of around 6 tons?

Finally, if you are forced for weight reasons to cut the payload to achieve promised range performance, the obvious place to take the weight off is at the rear of the passenger deck - i.e. the point furthest from the aircraft's Centre of Gravity.

From all that, I for one conclude that the '4-6 tons overweight' problem continues to haunt Airbus' A380 development team.



"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
User currently offlineSmokeyrosco From Ireland, joined Dec 2005, 2112 posts, RR: 13
Reply 5, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 14100 times:

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 4):

that is some pretty wild accusations.



John Hancock
User currently offlineNAV20 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 9909 posts, RR: 36
Reply 6, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 14079 times:

Not 'accusations', Smokeyrosco, deductions and a conclusion.   I can't help it if Airbus don't pubish any facts to confound the rumours.

Can you think of any other reason why two airlines would cut their intended economy passenger loads? And presumably, therefore, according to that plan, leave useable deckspace empty?

[Edited 2006-02-19 07:06:41]


"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
User currently offlineSmokeyrosco From Ireland, joined Dec 2005, 2112 posts, RR: 13
Reply 7, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 14065 times:

I can't see why any airline would buy an aircraft that does not do what it says on the tin (except maybe Airfrance) SQ cutting it's econo passengers in half because the aircraft cannot do it just dosent' wash with me, if that was the case it would make more sense to cancel the order and suffer the penilties.


John Hancock
User currently offlineNAV20 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 9909 posts, RR: 36
Reply 8, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 14035 times:

Or negotiate further compensation, on top of that already agreed for the delivery delays? Or a reduction of the (already low) launch prices?


"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
User currently offlineSmokeyrosco From Ireland, joined Dec 2005, 2112 posts, RR: 13
Reply 9, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 14029 times:

maybe at one time this was an option but now with fuel being such a major issue i don't think any compensation can make up for oil being at least $50 a barrel for the life of the aircraft.


John Hancock
User currently offlineMarshalN From Hong Kong, joined Sep 2005, 1521 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 14029 times:

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 6):
Not 'accusations', Smokeyrosco, deductions and a conclusion. I can't help it if Airbus don't pubish any facts to confound the rumours.

Based on..... questionable evidence

NAV20, care to point to a source that isn't just hearsay? Why should Airbus publish any facts or figures to the public? Nobody other than the airlines need to know, and presumably, they're happy enough to keep their orders. The burden of proof, if anything, is on the accuser to show that the aircraft is in fact overweight.

[Edited 2006-02-19 07:11:59]

User currently offlineNAV20 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 9909 posts, RR: 36
Reply 11, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 13997 times:

Plenty of sources, MarshalN. I'd oblige, but I'm going out to dinner.  Smile Please google 'A380 overweight' and read all about it.


"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
User currently offlineSmokeyrosco From Ireland, joined Dec 2005, 2112 posts, RR: 13
Reply 12, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 13960 times:

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 11):
Plenty of sources, MarshalN. I'd oblige, but I'm going out to dinner. Please google 'A380 overweight' and read all about it.

Aye, and i'm going to bed... nite nite all.



John Hancock
User currently offlineMorvious From Netherlands, joined Feb 2005, 707 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 13794 times:

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 11):
Please google 'A380 overweight' and read all about it

yeah thats a good source..  Yeah sure
The only good source is an airliner that is involved with the A380 project (Singapore for example) or Airbus itselves.

When googling, 40 out of 50 hits will direct me to the a.net forums..

To be back on topic, because the question was if the tail section was empty.

It looks like it on this drawing, but I miss for example the APU. So my hard guess is that it will be full with equipment, to safe room for where its needed.



have a good day, Stefan van Hierden
User currently offlineA319XFW From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 13683 times:

Anyhow, back to the topic....

Quoting AAgent (Reply 2):
Simply put, it would make the aircraft tail heavy. Typically, fuel is stored as close to the aircraft's center of gravity as possible.

Fuel is in the HTP of the A380. It is transfered there during climb and is used to give a 3° nose-up for improved cruise.

The other things in the tailcone is (as already said) the APU. Then you have the fuel and APU fuel lines, the hydraulics to the VTP, the HTP 'trimm-spindel' (actuating spiral - can't remember what it is caled in English!) and the mounting points of the HTP and VTP (plus reinforcements)


User currently offlineZeke From Hong Kong, joined Dec 2006, 9109 posts, RR: 75
Reply 15, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 13583 times:

Quoting AAgent (Reply 2):
Although not impossible, it would be extremely unlikely that Airbus would place an auxillary fuel tank in the tail section as it would severely impact the weight and balance of the aircraft. Simply put, it would make the aircraft tail heavy. Typically, fuel is stored as close to the aircraft's center of gravity as possible.

Placing fuel in the tail reduces fuel burn, and increases range. The 330/340/744 pax have fuel tanks in the tail.

The mass in the tail reduces the amount of downforce required to be produced by the horizintal stabilizer, which in turn reduces the amount of lift that needs to be produced.

The 744 pax has 10t of fuel in the tail, 333/343 4.9t, 346 6.5t (approx numbers)

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 4):
Both the first two recipient airlines (Singapore and Qantas) have announced reduction of heir planned passenger loads from 505 to 475 or thereabouts. No reasons were given, but I believe that 30 fewer passengers would amount to a weight saving of around 6 tons?

from http://www.qantasvacations.com/press-airbus-a380.htm dated 18 jan

Quote:
The Chief Executive Officer of Qantas, Mr Geoff Dixon, said Qantas would deploy its first four Airbus A380 aircraft, seating 501 passengers, on services between Australia and the United States of America, including both Melbourne-Los Angeles (12,749 km) and Sydney-Los Angeles (12,052).

The 6 new 744ERs with QF only have 343 pax, I was told for direct MEL-LAX flights with better payload. They generally run 744s configured for pacific or european flights, maybe they plan to do the same with the 380 ?



We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
User currently offlineA319XFW From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 13562 times:

Quoting Zeke (Reply 15):
from http://www.qantasvacations.com/press-airbus-a380.htm dated 18 jan

That was 18th Jan 2005 at the 'Reveal' of the A380.

Quote:
Speaking at the first public viewing of the A380 in Toulouse, France, today, Mr Dixon said Qantas' first 12 A380s would enable the airline to fly at least 17 weekly services between Australia and Los Angeles and 14 weekly services between Australia and London via Bangkok, Hong Kong and Singapore.


User currently offlineZeke From Hong Kong, joined Dec 2006, 9109 posts, RR: 75
Reply 17, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 13544 times:

Quoting A319XFW (Reply 16):
That was 18th Jan 2005 at the 'Reveal' of the A380.

Sorry, cannot see where its says 2005 ?



We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
User currently offlineA319XFW From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 13528 times:

Quoting Zeke (Reply 17):
Sorry, cannot see where its says 2005 ?

It says at the "First public viewing of the A380" which was last year!


User currently offlineNAV20 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 9909 posts, RR: 36
Reply 19, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 13459 times:

That story is out-of-date, I'm afraid, Zeke - it's from the 'reveal' in Jan. 2005. This is the more recent picture:-

"Although it can carry as many as 800 people in an all-economy layout, the standard configuration of Version 1 of the A380 (there's to be a bigger, "stretched" version later) is for 550 passengers in the three classes. At first Qantas said it would go with the standard layout, then, earlier this year, announced that it would go with a capacity of 501.

"Now, however, following Singapore Airlines' announcement that its new A380 would have only 480 seats, Qantas has announced that its final definition will also have fewer than 500."


http://www.theage.com.au/news/travel...0-be/2005/11/18/1132016935933.html

Or, if you prefer, this is the Airbus CEO, Gustav Humbert, talking on the same subject in October 2005:-

"Besides, so far our airline customers are planning to install only 440 to 480 seats in their A380s."

http://service.spiegel.de/cache/inte...al/spiegel/0,1518,377753-2,00.html



"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
User currently offlineZeke From Hong Kong, joined Dec 2006, 9109 posts, RR: 75
Reply 20, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 13418 times:

Thanks A319XFW

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 19):
This is the more recent picture:-

Another quote from the same article

Quote:
It had always been expected that Qantas' most lucrative customers at the pointy end would get the lion's share of the lounges and bars that have been a key part of Airbus' spruiking for the new plane. From the little Qantas is now saying - it won't unveil the details for some time because its first A380 doesn't arrive until April 2007 - economy customers will also have "access" to lounge areas.

But the most radical part of Qantas' plan is to introduce more space for each economy seat.



It seems to me the reason is given here, more space given to the customers.



We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
User currently offlineNAV20 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 9909 posts, RR: 36
Reply 21, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 13322 times:

Quoting Zeke (Reply 20):
It seems to me the reason is given here, more space given to the customers.

Why would they do that, Zeke? Please don't say to offer more legroom than the competition - as far as Melbourne/Sydney to the US West Coast is concerned, Qantas doesn't HAVE any competition worth talking about.

You're quite right about them cutting passenger loads on their Melbourne/LAX 747s. The reason is that it's around 7,000nms., with aggressive headwinds either way at various times of year, and 744s can't safely make the distance with a full load.

The simplest, most likely answer to the question of why Qantas has repeatedly cut their proposed passenger loads is that, on present indications, the A380 won't be able to either.



"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
User currently offlineSKA380 From Norway, joined Jun 2005, 162 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 13267 times:

NAV20: Care to give a reason how your post has anything to do with the topic ?

User currently offlineNumberTwelve From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 1431 posts, RR: 9
Reply 23, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 23 hours ago) and read 13155 times:

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 6):
Not 'accusations', Smokeyrosco, deductions and a conclusion. I can't help it if Airbus don't pubish any facts to confound the rumours.

Argh, come on, NAV, you're spreading rumours and others have to confound them? Little silly, or not?
There was a rumour from NAV20 too, that the 380 would never fly - so what about this rumour?



signature censored by admin - so check my profile
User currently offlineLufthansa From Christmas Island, joined May 1999, 3213 posts, RR: 10
Reply 24, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 23 hours ago) and read 13109 times:

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 21):

Why would they do that, Zeke? Please don't say to offer more legroom than the competition - as far as Melbourne/Sydney to the US West Coast is concerned, Qantas doesn't HAVE any competition worth talking about.

The answer is, I bet that space isn't going to Economy pax.. or if it is only a little bit. QF will soon have some upper class competition. Air NZ's new product is going to be of appeal to bris and mel pax, and some loyal star flyers to sydney, Plus Air Canada will also soon have a flat bed. QF needs to maintain its premium image in the upper classes... Plus remember this jet is also flying to LHR and for the sake of consistancy, their product to LAX and JFK needs to be the same as LHR. Otherwise you will piss off premium pax. QF have already stated they are introducing a new product when this jet turns up. So let's wait and see.

Nav20, i don't mean to be personal, but many of your posts in the past have been staunchly anti-airbus. Perhaps we could be a little more objective here?


Now back to the topic. As far as I have heard, there is going to be a giant staircase in the tail section. with a spiral-style half way turn. Which makes perfect sense, a staircase has to be somewhere and its going to be a similiar weight to regular flooring (note i said similar- not the same!) and it would make balancing the aircraft much simplier having it there.

[Edited 2006-02-19 15:44:55]

25 Lufthansa : Also i might add QF following SQ's reduction would also fit in line with the new "super upper class" products strategy. what routes do SQ fly that the
26 OldAeroGuy : The term you're looking for is "jackscrew". The A380 use of tailcone space outside of the pressure vessel is essentially the same as other transport
27 Elvis777 : Hi Lufthansa, the answer is:.. no one knows! Your explanation may be plausible but so is Nav's., ... Anyways, I am surprised that they would put a fue
28 OldAeroGuy : With the exception of engine controls, electronics are usually kept within the pressure vessel for environmental, and to a lesser extent, accessibili
29 Jacobin777 : personally, while I agree with Nav20 on this, I'm not going to speculate as we dont have "concrete informaton" and we know that the next 14-18 months
30 Rolfen : But I guess since the aircraft is bigger, then the empty space is also proportionally bigger. I didnt know that this part is unpressurized. Sorry, I
31 TinkerBelle : C'mon guys. Nav20 has links to back up his stories. QF and SQ didn't reduce pax numbers just for the heck of it and at the same time, they're not gon
32 Post contains images A319XFW : That's the one! Thanks! I'm forgetting my English after being in Germany for a bit
33 Elvis777 : Hi OldAeroGuy, Thanks, I was just guessing. Speaking out of my ear is a better way of describing it! Peace Elvis777
34 Lufthansa : That is true, but by that same standard we also have reports of EK planning to run an all-economy outfit increasing it!!!!! So go figure. Also rememb
35 Abba : Back to your old self? The 380 is reported to be less than 1% over target weight (compare to the 787 that is 1,5% over target weight) and the 380 is
36 Jacobin777 : you certainly aren't comparing an over-sized watermelon to a small plum are you?
37 Dl757md : Only 26 replies to get to get a knowledgeable answer. Gotta love A.net. Thanks OldAeroGuy for finally posting the right answer. I was beginning to th
38 Dw747400 : Two points. First, the 787 and A380 are in very different stages of development. I'd venture to guess that when the whalejet was where the 787 is now
39 Post contains links MarshalN : Just for the sake of checking, I decided to google as NAV20 suggested just to see what shows up Lo and behold... this is the first article that pops u
40 Abba : No - I am putting things into perspective. No I do not think so. The 1.5% over target weight seems - from what Gilette says - to be what they accepte
41 Post contains images NAV20 : Hi, MarshalN! I agree that the links you found have been around for a while - so it surprises me that you'd apparently never seen them before, and had
42 TinkerBelle : I could have sworn it was 400.
43 Post contains images TaromA380 : Finally, only 30% of statistics are made up on the spot. You could have a briliant career as Qantas spokesman. Cheers.
44 Lehpron : The following is an assumptive conclusion based on viewing dozens of "exploded views" of airliners: The tail end of every/any airliner is not consider
45 Zeke : Air NZ is now offering an economy class with a seat pitch of 39’’ over that route. How long before QF will compete with SQ, EK, EY, VS across the
46 Jush : No that is some proper bullshit! Regds jush
47 RichardPrice : From what Ive read on here and in other places, the engines were uprated versions of the same engines on the test aircraft, that simply produced more
48 Post contains images NAV20 : No, Zeke. Forgive me, but you seem to be clutching at straws a bit. You're a professional pilot, you know better than me that the rule is fuel for th
49 Dougloid : Well, if you guys wanted to ride in there it'd be cold and drafty, also aft of the pressure bulkhead. In the MD11 there was a fair amount of stuff goi
50 OldAeroGuy : Actually they are doing this already with an h. tail tank.
51 Post contains links Keesje : QANTAS this week launched itself into a "space war" with its key competitors, such as Emirates and Singapore Airlines, promising that its new flagshi
52 Zeke : Did you read reply 15 above ?
53 Revelation : Speaking of wild acusations, why do you think AF would be more likely to accept a deficient aircraft than any other airline? IMHO AF has done a prett
54 MarshalN : Uh, NAV20, I've seen all those before, a long time ago. The point is, many of these articles actually come from pre-flight testing. There seems to be
55 A319XFW : And the A300-600 does it and the A330 and A340.
56 AMSSFO : What do you mean with this? Are you referring to the thread starter's question why the tail cone seems to be empty? I hope you realise that that has
57 Dougloid : Of course I read it, but we were talking about the *Airbus A380*. Reply 15, which you authored, does not refer to the *Airbus A380*. It refers to *oth
58 Post contains images A319XFW : Reply 14 does I'm trying to remember if the fuel is transferred aft on climb or if it is possible on refuel already for the A380 (again, I used to kn
59 Dougloid : Missed it. Crow tastes pretty good with salt and pepper. I've had mine. You mentioned it. He didn't.
60 Abba : Ever tried to compare OEW of a rocket, an airplans and a glider relative to the load they can carry? I am sure that you will reach the surprising con
61 OldAeroGuy : Could be, but it has to carry its own oxidizer, something the airplane gets for free and the glider doesn't need.
62 Gigneil : You just completely made that second part up. 30% heavier does not necessarily mean 30% more fuel, there are a LOT of other variables that are appare
63 NAV20 : Gigneil (and others) - finally I get a bit sick of being called a liar. A380. Forecast MTOW 1,235,000lbs. Forecast total fuel capacity (before thrust
64 Post contains images Jacobin777 : actually the weight difference is 22.27% and the fuel difference is 26.58%....
65 Post contains images NAV20 : Oh dear, Jacobin. I said '30% heavier than', and 'require 30% more fuel than'. So the calculation should express the differences (275,000lbs. and 21,7
66 Post contains images Jacobin777 : ahhh..yes..I didn't catch that....
67 MasseyBrown : For what it's worth, trimm spindel (trim spindle in English?) makes perfect sense and is probably a better description than jackscrew.
68 Zeke : Both myself and OldAeroGuy (Reply 61) read what you said "the only reason that Airbus hasn't done this" and explained that it has been done, its comm
69 A319XFW : Unfortunately. But from what I've read/heard it is working better now than the A3456 did at the same time in the programme..... What has the fuel qua
70 Zeke : Dont see that as a negative, its actually a big plus, its like adding an additional 2,000,000 flight test hours onto the 380 fuel system. I would bet
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