Pe@rson From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2001, 18833 posts, RR: 54 Posted (7 years 3 months 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 5688 times:
It never ceases to amaze me how many people herein say 'free meal' or 'free drinks' or free whatever. Nothing is free. As Stelios Haji-Ioannou totally rightly said:
'The so-called freebies that other airlines offer aren't freebies at all. They're a rip-off. I look at it like this. If someone came up to me with a plastic tray of airline food and said, "Will you give me a tenner for this shit?" I would say "no" . There's no such thing as a free lunch so we don't pretend to provide one.'
Why do so many A.netters say it's all free? It's not.
Similarly, nearly all UK supermarkets provide inclusive - but not free - carrier bags, yet most people think they're free.
[Edited 2006-02-19 16:50:34]
"Everyone writing for the Telegraph knows that the way to grab eyeballs is with Ryanair and/or sex."
Nikeshashar From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2006, 53 posts, RR: 0 Reply 1, posted (7 years 3 months 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 5670 times:
If you turn your views around you can see that no one is going to run a business at a loss. If you are running an airline you are not going to give anything away with recovering your cost. Your airline ticket price does not include just the direct costs but all the indirect costs. Thats what brings load factors and seat revenue per mile into play in Airline Accounting.
I understand your point in you saying that people call it free but they generally do not look at it in a way that the airline will calculate everything it is paying for and then adjust ticket prices according to that. The only thing an airline is not allowed to make a profit on is TAX and FUEL SURCHARGES. Those are pre-determined.
Ozvirginuk From Australia, joined Jan 2005, 396 posts, RR: 5 Reply 4, posted (7 years 3 months 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 5636 times:
Quoting Pe@rson (Reply 3): It's just annoying when I read 'free X' all the time. Nothing's free. Smile
Try explaining that to the thousand of Y class pax who do nothing but complain about declining service standards. Don't hear them complaining about declining proces.....
Pe@rson, you have hit on one of my personal favourite bugbears.......
Commavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 10192 posts, RR: 62 Reply 7, posted (7 years 3 months 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 5559 times:
To be honest, I much prefer the system we have now in the United States -- the growing trend is that the "free" food of yesteryear is gone, replaced with either buy-on-board products or, more commonly, a smile from the gate agent and a general boarding area announcement that "we welcome you to buy food and bring it onboard." Personally, the old "free" stuff was crappy 9 times out of 10 anyway, so I'd much prefer to pay less (which we in America decidedly are now a days) and pick up a little pizza or McDonalds at the airport.
Ozvirginuk From Australia, joined Jan 2005, 396 posts, RR: 5 Reply 10, posted (7 years 3 months 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 5527 times:
Quoting Commavia (Reply 7): To be honest, I much prefer the system we have now in the United States -- the growing trend is that the "free" food of yesteryear is gone, replaced with either buy-on-board products or, more commonly, a smile from the gate agent and a general boarding area announcement that "we welcome you to buy food and bring it onboard." Personally, the old "free" stuff was crappy 9 times out of 10 anyway, so I'd much prefer to pay less (which we in America decidedly are now a days) and pick up a little pizza or McDonalds at the airport.
Got to agree with you there Commavia. If you pay less, AND have to option to bring what YOU want to eat on board, then it's great. Couple that with lower fares, and everyone's happy....
Leskova From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 6075 posts, RR: 72 Reply 13, posted (7 years 3 months 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 5487 times:
Quoting Pe@rson (Reply 12): I also don't understand why people keep bringing my views of Ryanair into completely unrelated threads. Most odd.
As soon as I see a non-Ryanair-related thread by you, I'll agree with you...
Nonetheless: true, there is no "free lunch" - just as much as there is no free coffee or coke or whatever.
But in the end it comes down to choice: some people like booking all-inclusive holidays, others book breakfast-only or without any meals... they pay the price for it, accept it - and that's it.
There's really no need to constantly keep rehashing the same stuff over and over... yes, LCCs offer lower fares but don't include anything into the fare - while non-LCCs include some extras into the fare but, consequently, have a higher fare.
If I'm willing to pay €100 more for a flight from FRA to LHR than I'd be paying from HHN to LTN (or STN, or whatever), then that's my choice.
If someone else isn't willing to pay that amount extra, then that's his or her choice.
I can live with that... and it's certainly not something that I spend more than about 5 seconds per month thinking about... at least unless I come accross threads like this one...
Luv2fly From United States of America, joined May 2003, 11957 posts, RR: 51 Reply 16, posted (7 years 3 months 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 5473 times:
Quoting Leskova (Reply 13): As soon as I see a non-Ryanair-related thread by you, I'll agree with you...
Nonetheless: true, there is no "free lunch" - just as much as there is no free coffee or coke or whatever.
But in the end it comes down to choice: some people like booking all-inclusive holidays, others book breakfast-only or without any meals... they pay the price for it, accept it - and that's it.
There's really no need to constantly keep rehashing the same stuff over and over... yes, LCCs offer lower fares but don't include anything into the fare - while non-LCCs include some extras into the fare but, consequently, have a higher fare.
If I'm willing to pay €100 more for a flight from FRA to LHR than I'd be paying from HHN to LTN (or STN, or whatever), then that's my choice.
If someone else isn't willing to pay that amount extra, then that's his or her choice.
I can live with that... and it's certainly not something that I spend more than about 5 seconds per month thinking about... at least unless I come accross threads like this one...
Regards,
Frank
Frank I have to agree with you 110%. It is after all, all about having a choice. Not everything needs to be reduced to the lowest denominator. It is like retail they are different sectors that cater to defferent cliental.
LTBEWR From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 12335 posts, RR: 12 Reply 18, posted (7 years 3 months 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 5457 times:
Inclusive is probably the more correct term. When airlines were still largely regulated as to fares, airlines used food and beverage services as selling points to encourage customers to use their airline over competitors. As competition shifted to price, something had to give to compensate, so hence he delcine or end of 'free' or included items such as food, meals, snacks, pillows, blankets, IFE and so on. In the past those costs could be averaged out, but with the terrible financial situations of many airlines, things have permanently changed.
Kangar From Ireland, joined Feb 2000, 395 posts, RR: 0 Reply 19, posted (7 years 3 months 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 5425 times:
So what if folks mistakenly believe they're getting something for free. Ignorance can be bliss, they're probably a lot happier than folks who know the terrible truth.
If some folks misstating the facts on something as small as this gets to you, you're in for a very frustrating life.
Commavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 10192 posts, RR: 62 Reply 21, posted (7 years 3 months 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 5297 times:
Quoting Orion737 (Reply 8): yes but you Americans dont have to pay £1.50 for a scoldingly hot cup of dishwater. You still get a 'tea or coke' on the house.
This is true. I can't think of a single U.S. carrier that charges for non-alcoholic drinks. American Eagle recently tested the concept on its shorter LAX hub flights to regional California destinations. The "test" was dropped within a month because people were so infuriated by it. I recently flew EasyJet LGW-AMS-LGW and I couldn't believe that people were paying several dollars for a tiny (not even full size) can of Coke or juice box of apple juice.
Nudelhirsch From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 1438 posts, RR: 20 Reply 22, posted (7 years 3 months 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 5272 times:
If we may not say it is free any more, than you may not compare fares of FR or other cattle transport companies with the ones of legacy carriers. Because it is a different deal. One airline doesn't give you anything but an airport that is barely within 200 miles of the city they advertise, others give you a convenient airport and infrastructure, peanuts and drinks, and sometimes more than just that.
It is a different animal, so we would have to set ground rules for comparison: Never compare FR to any other airline, because it is a cattle transportation company, not an airline. Never compare fares of U2 to LH because it is a different deal. And never compare free or not free drinks because it is a different deal as well. Or just drop those childish discussions and let people get free drinks if they want, others may have included drinks, on some airlines they can just dream of drinks. Whatever. No need to worry...
Just a lame attempt to advertise the poor service of FR and the others out there...
WhiteHatter From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 23, posted (7 years 3 months 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 5259 times:
Quoting Orion737 (Reply 8): yes but you Americans dont have to pay £1.50 for a scoldingly hot cup of dishwater. You still get a 'tea or coke' on the house.
Our carriers, some full service, have even taken away that.
and who pays for that? The Free Coke Fairy out of the goodness of its heart?
Here's a clue. The airline charges for it as part of the ticket. Unless someone found a magic Free Coke Tree planted in the middle of Heathrow recently...
AirlineAV8tr From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 191 posts, RR: 4 Reply 24, posted (7 years 3 months 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 5248 times:
Continental Airlines- Complimentary meals at meal times. ALWAYS
Continental Airlines- Work Hard, Fly Right!
If we went into the funeral business, people would stop dying.-Martin S. (PanAm CEO)
25 Ozvirginuk: That must be how the bankruptcy ridden US carrier stock their flights....
26 Pe@rson: I can assure you that I wouldn't. I just find it most odd that people think it's free - when it's not.
27 Mariner: Where does it stop? It used to be - in Japan - that they would quote a fare for the bullet train, but when you came to pay it was double the quote. Th
29 Ozvirginuk: I guess some people don't get the point... Oz
30 Egmcman: Refills I think you will find or at least that was the case when I was in Orlando. Hot drinks in the US aren't that hot because of the legal implicat
31 Legacy135: I never called it "free" but inclusive. I prefer to fly the airlines with "inclusive" customer service. If I go to a restaurant I prefer the one with
32 AirlineAV8tr: OK, I'll re-phrase it. "CO, 'inclusive' meals at meal time. Always."
33 Pe@rson: Totally inacurrate, but say a meal cost the airline $2 each. If the airline carried 40 million passengers per year, that'd be $80 million per year - j
34 Tango-Bravo: You have anwered a rhetorial question once raised by Herb Kelleher (patriarch of Southwest/WN) to make a point in the manner he assumed it would be a
35 Pe@rson: Indeed. By 'inclusive,' I meant included within the price, i.e. that you've indirectly paid for it.
36 NWOrientDC10: I learned an acronym in micro-economics: TANSTAAFL - "There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch". Russell
37 SATX: I actually like CO having meals. No,they're not free and they're not even good meals, but they're just like any other airline meal and it's probably g
38 Pe@rson: Don't get me wrong, folks: I don't care if an airline provides meals or not (OK, I expect it on long-haul flights). It's just frustrating when people
39 AndesSMF: No, you pay $5 at you local Starbucks!! But anyway, sometimes I go to eat at McDonalds, sometimes I pay (by choice) over $150 to wine, dine and then
40 Pe@rson: I had a fair idea what you were implying, until I saw you only put two **. Hmm.
41 SAS330: Excactly, this is our US Culture. Lunch and dinner from Mc Donalds, Pizza Hut, Burger King etc... So tell me what is so different between the crappy
42 AndesSMF: The great part about living in the developed world is the ability to really complain about inane crap. If you are a business traveller, flying become
43 VV701: An extremely poor example to try to illustrate a possibly valid point. Why? Well try getting a 'free' airline meal without buying an airline ticket.
44 Nubes: In Holland we say: (roughly translated) Only the sun comes up for free..
45 Nudelhirsch: Why is it frustrating? Because on your airline nothing is free/complimentary/included or what? What exactly is so frustrating when people say that? T
46 EWROwznj00: Pearson, forgive my slowness tonight, for my brain is fried from an accounting project. But, I'm not sure I'm getting your point. You are correct when
47 SongStar: I'm looking around...trying to find the proverbial dead horse you all keep beating...ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhh...this thread is hurting my head..."free" "inclu
49 G4resagent: Allegiant is one. We charged for everything: alcohol ($5), Pepsi products ($2/can), snacks ($1-3), and SoBe and Starbucks Frappuccino ($4).[Edited 20
50 Ckfred: First of all, I don't think airline food is as bad as people claim it is. AA used to have very good pasta dishes in coach. They weren't as good as wha
51 AndesSMF: Thats my point, most people care more about where they sleep than how they get there! You usually don't hear people looking forward to a long airplan
52 Skydrol: Likely because the experience has become so miserable due to service cutbacks. That's not always the case. Consider trans-pacific flights. Comfort an
53 Pe@rson: I think you're missing the point: how does the airline pay for the toilet paper? By the money generate by customers. Accordingly, you still pay for i
54 Pe@rson: So "extremely poor" that no-one else picked-up on it. Accept you with your over-analytical reply, akin to a sad professor writing a report on the imp
55 DCrawley: When I was young and did a lot of travelling, I never understood why my father would always make several sandwhiches, buy some fruit and drinks, and p
56 ManchesterMAN: You say airline meals are not free but inclusive in the overall price of the ticket. OK. But how many airlines who have cut in flight catering have ac
57 Viv: As Shakespeare so elegantly said, "Much Ado About Nothing". P€@rs0n take note please.
58 Pe@rson: Applicable to you, too, then, considering you made an effort to reply - and it was, frankly, rather inane.
59 Billy: But to turn it around, I wanted to go to LHR with one day's notice. The wonderful BMI modular service wanted to sting me for £230 one-way - no free f
60 Tifoso: It is all relative. CO offers meals on its flights, and is quite often cheaper than its competition. Does that mean you get a free meal? I believe so
61 Richardw: Boarding cards aren't free, so should I get a discount for printing mine at home?
62 Pe@rson: ...because the customer pays for it indirectly through their purchases.
63 Pe@rson: Technically, yes. Moreover, you have more advantages if you print it at home: your overall airport journey should be quicker; you should have less st
64 Toddy333: "there is no such thing as a free lunch" my most favourite phrase ever!
65 Tifoso: Don't take my quote out of context. I said: Service on board and price are defined by what the competition does. A service on airline A is free if B
66 Pe@rson: But who pays for it? That's surely an issue of value-for-money than it being free - because you still pay for it indirectly.
67 Nikeshashar: They have a base price for fuel per flying day. They are not allowed to make a profit on fuel charges is what I was trying to get across.
68 Tifoso: Like I've said twice before, you are defining "free" in the aboslute sense, when it needs to be relative. Let me explain my example again. Airline A
69 Pe@rson: No. Because I would realise that I was still ultimately and indirectly paying for it. That's all. I do understand and appreciate your arguments, thou
70 Tifoso: Likewise. I guess we just disagree on this issue Cheers.[Edited 2006-02-20 13:05:54]
71 Bond007: I don't understand the point of the post! ..or why it seems to be such a big deal, that people "don't get it". Actually, you have NO IDEA whether an a
72 Viv: Of course there are! But P€@rs0n is apparently worried about it. Things that are free on the demand side are (generally) not free on the supply sid
73 Pe@rson: Ah, my mistake. Airline CEOs pay for it out of their annual bonus. Oh, wait, I'm wrong: airline staff have a collect pennies for the box and pay for
74 FlyDeltaJets: They are leagal as long as the cup has a warning label on it. Not on a buisness trip from JFK to DXB Forget airlines there is nothing FREE in this wo
75 Bond007: No, read what I said - it's accounting 101, and shows you really don't have any idea! Of course the costs of a product are included in the bottom-lin
76 Pe@rson: 'Nuff said. I don't think you should be criticising me, Bond007 - Stelios, the founder of the airline easyJet, said there's no such thing as a free l
77 Pe@rson: 77 replies thus far. If it was so unimportant, then they'd have been zero replies or very few.
78 Bond007: How does this 'prove' anything. Of course everything is included in the bottom-line. Nobody argued any different. The question is who ultimately pays
79 Pe@rson: Yes they have - by saying it's free. If it wasn't included in the "bottom-line" it would be free - but as it is, it's not. LOL. That's the thing - cu
80 AcessColombia: "There is no such thing as a free meal" That is the basic principal used for economics, I know I passed the course. In the case of airlines, the price
81 YULWinterSkies: Although I agree that it's theoretically not free (airlines do pay their food and drink suppliers, and eventually charge it to their customers on the
82 Commavia: I think airlines would take a slightly different view -- I think that in today's day and age, most would regard the "point of air travel" as transpor
83 Pe@rson: But even if it's just 1p, you're still indirectly paying for it - so it's still not free. Your argument that its per-person cost would be very low -
84 Tifoso: Can you give me an example of what you consider to be free? Does not have to be aviation related.
85 Pe@rson: Very little is free. If you think about it, even sex in a relationship isn't free - you are effectively paying for it through gifts, drinks, etc. Ind
86 CPH757: Exactly. I have always wondered the same thing. But you know, on a 10+ hours flight with "free drinks", it is possible to earn by drinking. Just drin
87 Viv: I go for a "buy two get one free" deal in a bookshop. The two books I pay for at at normal retail price. I pay nothing for the third one. I never visi
88 Tifoso: I would like an example of what you think is free. Because, without one, I don't see why you had to start a thread claiming that lunch is never free.
89 Pe@rson: Because I quoted a person who said implied things given by airlines are not free - including meals. If I wished to talk about everything else, I woul
90 Viv: You said that "nothing is free". I have proved you wrong. For an airline example: Ryanair are currently offering "zero Euro" tickets. I fly on one of
91 Pe@rson: This is an aviation forum. I meant it in an aviation context. You'll actually find that FR's 'free' tickets are actually 1p + the rest. Never zero. T
92 Mhodgson: Ah, so Ryanair are lying I think the main problem with the issue Pe@rson brings up is that a lot of people confuse 'inclusive' with 'free'. Because th
93 Viv: Last year, on my one and only flight with Lufthansa, I was given a free upgrade to first class (transatlantic flight Frankfurt-New York). I paid noth
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