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Chinese Regional Jet  
User currently offlineCsturdiv From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 1447 posts, RR: 3
Posted (8 years 5 months 1 week 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 3824 times:

Anybody know more about the Chinese built regional jet, ARJ21-700? Just read about it on:

http://www.flightglobal.com/Articles...aft+production+starts%2c+adds.html

Any idea of what this plane will look like? They say that it will have fuselage mounted engines, so I am guessing that it might look more like the E135/40/45 rather than the E170/75/90/95.


Posting from somewhere between KORD and KRFD
29 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineEGNR From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2004, 508 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (8 years 5 months 1 week 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 3811 times:

Quoting Csturdiv (Thread starter):
Any idea of what this plane will look like? They say that it will have fuselage mounted engines, so I am guessing that it might look more like the E135/40/45 rather than the E170/75/90/95.

Here is some info on the ARJ21. It bears a resemblance to the DC-9/MD-80/MD-90/B717... Click



7late7, A3latey, Sukhoi Superlate... what's going on?
User currently offlineRAFVC10 From Spain, joined Sep 2005, 1980 posts, RR: 6
Reply 2, posted (8 years 5 months 1 week 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 3766 times:
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Quoting EGNR (Reply 1):
Here is some info on the ARJ21. It bears a resemblance to the DC-9/MD-80/MD-90/B717...

Yes, the new substituteof the 717. But if the american aircraft seems to not had success... will the chinese imitation enough market to sell it???



El dia que los gilipollas vuelen, no podremos ver la luz del sol!
User currently offlineDfwRevolution From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 962 posts, RR: 51
Reply 3, posted (8 years 5 months 1 week 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 3758 times:

Quoting RAFVC10 (Reply 2):
Yes, the new substituteof the 717.

Neither a range, capacity, nor performance equivalent to the Boeing 717. The best analogy is a Chinese version of the Fokker F70.

Quoting RAFVC10 (Reply 2):
But if the american aircraft seems to not had success... will the chinese imitation enough market to sell it???

(1) It's not a B717 immitation

(2) It won't have a chance outside of China. It's up against the more advanced and more capable Embraer E-jets. Major airlines won't give it a look.


User currently offlineCsturdiv From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 1447 posts, RR: 3
Reply 4, posted (8 years 5 months 1 week 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 3738 times:

Thanks for the link. I like the superimposed pics of the plane in action.  smile 


Posting from somewhere between KORD and KRFD
User currently offlineDougloid From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (8 years 5 months 1 week 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 3718 times:

Give credit where it's due. The Chinese will clean everyone's clock, it's not a matter of when but if.

And they've made an excellent engine choice.


User currently offlineDelta777Jet From Germany, joined Jun 2000, 1247 posts, RR: 3
Reply 6, posted (8 years 5 months 1 week 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 3696 times:

Lets wake up !! China is on the move towards world leadership thanks to the nice technology transfer. The chinese understand how to copy everything and develop it further. The europeans and specially the americans always believe that we are a step ahead, but the reality is that china is one the way to lead. Imagine what a jet like this will cost, if it was produced by the chinese ?

[Edited 2006-02-19 23:08:17]


Fly easyJet
User currently offlineLAXDESI From United States of America, joined May 2005, 5086 posts, RR: 48
Reply 7, posted (8 years 5 months 1 week 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 3666 times:

Quoting Delta777Jet (Reply 6):
The europeans and specially the americans always believe that we are a step ahead, but the reality is that china is one the way to lead. Imagine what a jet like this will cost, if it was produced by the chinese ?

Does anyone have figures on labor cost as a percent of total cost of a regional jet?


User currently offlineDfwRevolution From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 962 posts, RR: 51
Reply 8, posted (8 years 5 months 1 week 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 3633 times:

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 5):
Give credit where it's due. The Chinese will clean everyone's clock, it's not a matter of when but if.

I suppose your axiom is give hype where others hype?

Far be it from me to throw some reason into the "China will conqoure the world" paradigm, but have you considered that China is but a mere mortal nation capable of economic recession, natural resource shortages, labor discontent, and enviornmental damage? Nothing last forever and in due course, China's growth will stabilize and they will face the same cyclical growth of industrialized nations.

China's nominal GDP growth has been stunning, but even at their amazing 9%, it will be a decade before China is half as large as the EU or US (alone) and twenty years before China reaches the output of the United States today, $12 trillion USD. Assuming a measly 3% growth of the U.S. economy, the US will still double its GDP within twenty years to $24 trillion USD.

Within the time frame of the Chinese RJ, the hegemonic effects of China's economy is totally insignificant.

Quoting Delta777Jet (Reply 6):
China is on the move towards world leadership thanks to the nice technology transfer.

China will "beat us" if we think China will "beat us" and then we all assume it to be true so we give up investing in our own economy.

It's like an episode of the OC. The US and EU have handled China's rapid industrialization with the maturity, wisdom, and foresight of teenagers going after the same babe.

Quoting Delta777Jet (Reply 6):
The europeans and specially the americans always believe that we are a step ahead, but the reality is that china is one the way to lead.

And why shouldn't we?

Note the major contractors for this project. GE propulsion, Rockwell avonics. Much of the critical hardware is imported and performance is nothing beyond what 80s-90s western aircraft can perform. This is CRJ200, China remix. Leading the way? Hardly.

Quoting LAXDESI (Reply 7):
Does anyone have figures on labor cost as a percent of total cost of a regional jet?

For a typical Boeing large aircraft in the mid 1990s (I havn't a clue of RJ), labor is approx 15% of the airframe list price. Average assembly time for an aircraft was about 30 days.

Note that Boeing is/has reducing the 737NG and 777 to approx 12 days. The 787 will aim for three days from the time all parts arrive at Everett to roll-out. That's a 90% labor reduction since 1995 to 2008.

Labor is losing its significance as a huge fraction of aircraft cost as composite manufacturing, pre-fabricated segements, and automated technology reduce assembly time. It will be i-m-p-o-s-s-i-b-l-e for China to compete on the global market with dirt cheap labor alone.


User currently offlineDougloid From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (8 years 5 months 1 week 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 3570 times:

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 8):
Quoting Dougloid (Reply 5):
Give credit where it's due. The Chinese will clean everyone's clock, it's not a matter of when but if.

I suppose your axiom is give hype where others hype?

Far be it from me to throw some reason into the "China will conqoure the world" paradigm, but have you considered that China is but a mere mortal nation capable of economic recession, natural resource shortages, labor discontent, and enviornmental damage? Nothing last forever and in due course, China's growth will stabilize and they will face the same cyclical growth of industrialized nations.

Well, far be it from me to rain on your parade, but is your answer just an extra large helping of bombast with a soupcon of "They're but a bunch of makers of plastic gewgaws and cheap hand tools"?

Considering what they'd accomplished in the last 30 years, they're capable of doing anything they set their minds to. Anything.

Nope. I used to think like you until I ventured to state that if they could pull off the Three Gorges project they could do anything. And what you're advancing is about what I got a-certain and understandable amount of hubris.

Well. They're bringing it in on time and on budget. The single largest hydro plant and human made artifact in the world, ever. Yes. They bought enough generators from France that Alsthom transferred the technology necessary so that they'll finish equipping the powerhouse out of their own production. Oh. By the way when completed it will be a 90 gigawatt powerplant-the largest in the world.

After that, building airplanes will be no huge challenge, and anyone who thinks otherwise is whistling past the graveyard.


User currently offlineNwab787techops From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 219 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (8 years 5 months 1 week 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 3555 times:

http://www.aerospace-technology.com/projects/arj21/index.html#arj211

User currently offlineDfwRevolution From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 962 posts, RR: 51
Reply 11, posted (8 years 5 months 1 week 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 3521 times:

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 9):
Well, far be it from me to rain on your parade, but is your answer just an extra large helping of bombast with a soupcon of "They're but a bunch of makers of plastic gewgaws and cheap hand tools"?

You didn't pick up a bit of what I said. Try again.

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 9):
"They're but a bunch of makers of plastic gewgaws and cheap hand tools"?

Did you bother looking at the suppliers of the ARJ21? They are using previous generation, western imports. This is not a cutting edge aircraft. In fact, it's largely a rehashed version of aircraft that debut 15 years ago. The Embraer sales team need not worry about the ARJ21.

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 9):
After that, building airplanes will be no huge challenge, and anyone who thinks otherwise is whistling past the graveyard.

(1) It's a pity civil engineers are largely non-transferable to aerospace projects. Commercial airlines are the highest engineered manufactured good in the world. No, building a dam does not translate into building 737.

(2) If you think Airbus and Boeing have not secured their grip on the current and future generation of large commercial aircraft, you are incredibly dense. Labor is China's biggest advantage. What does Boeing do? Eliminate 90% of the labor required to build their airplanes.

(3) You are demonstrating the exact mentality I warned against. The only way China will "over take" the United States is if dimwitts like you think the U.S. is totally out of the game (and we are sooo not) and stop investing in our economy for that reason. Once that happens, the U.S. will fall behind. People are talking themselves out of a stable and thriving economy, and its rediculous. It's backwards, circular logic.

It's really just perception, and you percieve China to be some invincible dragon. Hey dill, they're going to suffer the same problems every other industrialized nation suffers in due course. China does not possess the raw materials or labor stability to grow indefinitly. There's going to come a time in the next 20-30 years when the Chinese won't put up with the Great Firewall of China.

All nations go through cyclical growth. Why should China be any exception?

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 9):
Oh. By the way when completed it will be a 90 gigawatt powerplant-the largest in the world.

Yeah, like I'm going to put up with your sass. You have no clue of what you are talking about nor where my position on these issues lies, so why don't you go back to doing what you do best, Flight Simulator perhaps?


User currently offlineDelta777Jet From Germany, joined Jun 2000, 1247 posts, RR: 3
Reply 12, posted (8 years 5 months 1 week 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 3377 times:

DFWRevolution:

Turn around your computer and have a look where it has been made.
This will answer the question that China orders everything from our supliers.
The answer: They always do that in order to copy things and make them better and that is fine.

Secondly: Do you think the U.S. have so many friends left in the world that they will be market leaders in the future and countries buying U.S. products currencies etc. ? It will be interesting to see how the U.S. Goverment will react when they will be downgraded year by year and the economy will fail. When the U.S. start wars for oil, what will they do rescure their economy and leadership ? May be World Wars ?

But lets come back to aviation, my guess is the chinese will produce within the next ten years aircrafts certified to our standards for 30-45 % of todays costs.



Fly easyJet
User currently offlinePlanemaker From Tuvalu, joined Aug 2003, 6122 posts, RR: 34
Reply 13, posted (8 years 5 months 1 week 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 3262 times:

Quoting Delta777Jet (Reply 12):
Turn around your computer and have a look where it has been made.

Not only where it has been made... but increasingly who owns the company. The chinese firm, Lenovo, bought IBM's PC business. I find it symbolic and ironic that the company that "invented" the Personal Computer had that division bought by a chinese company.

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 11):
3) You are demonstrating the exact mentality I warned against. The only way China will "over take" the United States is if dimwitts like you think the U.S. is totally out of the game (and we are sooo not) and stop investing in our economy for that reason. Once that happens, the U.S. will fall behind. People are talking themselves out of a stable and thriving economy, and its rediculous. It's backwards, circular logic.

It is mainly arithmetic why China, with a population of over 1.3-billion, will eventually "over take" the US. Bill Gates was talking about this at the Davos Forum and threw out some examples... China has more cell phones than the population of the US, and in a couple of years will have more high-speed internet connections than there are American households. China's and India's middle classes already form a larger market than the US population.

But what the leaders of many leading American high-tech companies are shouting out is that it is the declining standards of the US educational system that will ultimately topple the US from the top of the podium in the future. If you had watched the ABC 20/20 program a few weeks back on the education system you would have been very afraid!

Microsoft has 3 research centers in the world: Cambridge, UK; at HQ in Redmond, Washington; and in Beijing opened in 1998. Bill Gates said "in terms of the quality of ideas that they are turning out," Beijing is now the most productive research arm in the Microsoft system - "it is mind blowing."

As more and more manufacturing and service jobs get out-sourced, the US will have to increasingly rely on high-tech innovation for jobs. However, the US is falling behind in being able to just maintain current levels of high-tech staffing: only 4% of NASA workers are under 30. Every high-tech company has reported similar stats... including Boeing. A National Science Board report pointed out the following nuggets:

- Number of US students who receive a science degree has dropped to 17th place globally.

- The number of US science and engineering Ph.D.'s awarded dropped from 27,000 to 29,000 in a single year, and total engineering undergraduates in the US fell 12% in 15 years.

- Two-thirds of the US mathematics and science teaching force will retire by 2010.

- Asia graduates over 8 times as many engineering students.

- Only 5% of US students graduate with an engineering degree compared to 25% in Russia and 46% in China.

- In 1990, 14% of all US Science & Engineering occupations were held by foreign-born people.

- Between 1990 and 2000, the number of foreign-born Ph.D.'s in American Science and Engineering occupations rose from 24 to 35%; Master's from 19 to 29%; and Bachelor's from 11 to 17%.

It is not just the low level manufacturing and service segment where China (and India) are taking jobs away from Americans, but the high-tech R&D and innovation jobs as well which are the foundations of the economy.



Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
User currently offlineDougloid From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (8 years 5 months 1 week 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 3200 times:

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 11):
2) If you think Airbus and Boeing have not secured their grip on the current and future generation of large commercial aircraft, you are incredibly dense.



Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 11):
Yeah, like I'm going to put up with your sass. You have no clue of what you are talking about nor where my position on these issues lies, so why don't you go back to doing what you do best, Flight Simulator perhaps?

Noibody asked you to come the acid with me, brother.

I didn't insult you, I disagreed with you. I do not have flight simulator on my computer.

If you read my profile you would have known that, but you're like a few other folks around here with a one dimensional attitude: I'm right, everyone else is wrong if they disagree with me and that makes them all wankers. It's a discredited notion that anyone with the intelligence of a potted geranium would have seen through but you didn't.



So maybe what you ought to do is get your head out of...well, you know where. You'll be able to see a lot better and the air's bound to be fresher.

Oh...and that technology transfer that the Chinese won't learn anything from? It's called an Airbus A320 production line.

game-set-match. Better luck next time.


User currently offlineMidway2airtran From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 864 posts, RR: 2
Reply 15, posted (8 years 5 months 1 week 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 3197 times:

I wouldn't care who builds an a/c as long as it can improve on economics, safety and reliability. Otherwise nobody wants it. Leave it up to the goverment(s) to solve the other issues.


"Life is short, but your delay in ATL is not."
User currently offlineCPH757 From Denmark, joined Sep 2005, 684 posts, RR: 2
Reply 16, posted (8 years 5 months 1 week 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 3135 times:

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 8):
Far be it from me to throw some reason into the "China will conqoure the world" paradigm, but have you considered that China is but a mere mortal nation capable of economic recession, natural resource shortages, labor discontent, and enviornmental damage? Nothing last forever and in due course, China's growth will stabilize and they will face the same cyclical growth of industrialized nations.

Exactly. Everyone seem to exclude that Chinese growth also promote Western growth and vice versa. It is not a matter of "conquor the world" and make everybody else bottom rank economies.

China has shown large growth rates for the last decades, but don't forget all the large problems the country suffer. The vast majority of the population are poor peasants, the pollution level is critical, the political system is not very suitable for investments. Possible to overcome, but it takes many decades. For continueous growth, China also have to overcome problems like the energy supply. It is not feasible to rely on large hydroplants. There are too expensive and time consuming to build, and the cultural and environmental consequences are to large (after the first prestigious one (Three Gorges Dam) has been build). They no longer need to show the rest of the world that they are capable of doing it.

Chinese engineering has a lot to learn. Remember that the draw heavily on engineers from the Western world. The sure have a lot of skilled engineers and other highly educated people, but there are still fundemental differences in the skills. With the risk of pissing some of by generalizing, I would postulate that the Chinese skills are very different to the ones we develop in EU/US. The design phase of a project is still difficult in China. The Chinese educational system and indeed historical circumstances discourage liberate thinking and inventions. This is definitely changing, but it takes generations or at least decades to convert people to this school.

This also mean that highly sofisticated manufacturing like aircraft production eventually will be found in China, based on Chinese knowledge and development. But this will be a result in better schooling, and learning from Foreign projects, like the one Airbus is about to initate. The production of the ARJ21 is not an accomplishment, just another copy of inferior technology, that perhaps has a future for airlines that are very sensitive to price compared to efficiency and reliability factors.



Last flight: SAW-CPH on H9 on 02/11/09 - Next Flights: 23/12/09 CPH-AAL on QI, 30/12/09 CPH-LHR on SK, 19/01/10 CPH-CDG-
User currently offlineDfwRevolution From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 962 posts, RR: 51
Reply 17, posted (8 years 5 months 1 week 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 3109 times:

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 14):
game-set-match. Better luck next time.

How about this: the second one of the ARJ21 flies for a mainstream airline in Europe, North America, or Asia, give me a call and gloat all you want.

I am extremly well versed in economics. If you take the time to read what I wrote, I am not putting China down. If you note, I commented about the amazing potential that is China. If you note, I commented how poorly the EU and US governments have reacted to China's growth. Turn on CNBC and you'd think China was preparing an armed invasion. I don't think like that. I don't regurgitate what I heard on CNN.

I still don't see how you can possibly think that China is immune from the pleathora of issues that face industrialized nations that China has yet to encounter. There are huge challenges facing China in the future, just as large if not larger than what face the EU and US.

Finally, I made this point explicitly clear:

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 8):
Within the time frame of the Chinese RJ, the hegemonic effects of China's economy is totally insignificant.

Within the time frame of the Chinese RJ, the hegemonic effects of China's economy is totally insignificant.

Digest that for a second. The ARJ21 is not new technology. It does not offer new performance, capabilities, or economics. It's an aircraft niche that is over-supplied in many markets. The CRJ is in the dumps and its from a reputable OEM. The only group making money in this niche is Embraer, and they've targeted a different niche than this ARJ21.

If you think the ARJ21 is the first Chinese aerospace product that will succeed on the open market, you are sorely mistaken! Might it be one of many precursors to such an aircraft? Perhaps.

That being said, I do not march to the Fox News Financial drum and excuse me for offering totally valid points against the virtually unchallenged notion of today's economic prediction vogue, itself a massive vodoo science. Excuse me for injecting some contrasting thought. Excuse me for offering a different perspective. I am totally out of line  Yeah sure


User currently offlineBoeingguy1 From Ireland, joined Jan 2006, 415 posts, RR: 1
Reply 18, posted (8 years 5 months 1 week 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 3102 times:

Quoting Planemaker (Reply 13):
IBM's PC business. I find it symbolic and ironic that the company that "invented" the Personal Computer

IBM hardly invented the Personal Computer. Apple brought computers to the home with Macintosh.
And about IBM's computer division, it was slowly lagging behind US PC Giants such as DELL and HP. Think of it this way: IBM may have played a large roll in bringing computers to the mainstream, but companies ushc as Dell, Microsoft and HP have taken their technology and made it better. Just as the Wright Brothers invented the airplane, others took upon their designs and improved it; IE Douglas and Boeing.



Gatwick South! Id rather crash in Brighton!
User currently offlineDougloid From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (8 years 5 months 1 week 2 days ago) and read 3033 times:

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 17):
How about this: the second one of the ARJ21 flies for a mainstream airline in Europe, North America, or Asia, give me a call and gloat all you want.

How about this. You stop running your mouth for a minute and go back and read my critique of what you said. You implied I was some sort of flight simulator toting snot because I disagreed with you. Completely off point and off topic.

I disagreed with you and you treated me as if I was some moron off the street-and that's a fact.

You just can't get it through your head that there are other, equally valid opinions in this world, and they don't all come from idiots just because they are different than your opinion. The rest of us are just as rational as you are-maybe more so.


User currently offlineShenzhen From United States of America, joined Jun 2003, 1710 posts, RR: 2
Reply 20, posted (8 years 5 months 1 week 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 2925 times:

Whilst China has there problems, as noted above, they are learinng a great deal on quality and process. Go to any major hotel in any major city, hunt out the conference rooms and I'll bet that at least one has Quality, Six Sigma, or Lean principles being taught.

Would I pick their airplane today over a western product, highly doubtfull. They still have a long way to go on producing items that are worth millions upon millions of dollars. If it cost 75 retail, the manufactures in China probably sold it for 10, meaning the guys in western countries can simply throw a portion in the rubish, but it still cheaper then manufacturing these in the US or EU. But, IKEA, Walmart and everyone else have people here teaching the manufactures to improve their quality... (little less in the rubish can or Ebay I suppose).

Personally, I think the ARJ will be lucky to sale a couple hundred, even if they do get FAA certification (which isn't a given).

Cheers


User currently offlineGVWOW From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 168 posts, RR: 2
Reply 21, posted (8 years 5 months 1 week 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 2843 times:

If Virgin Atlantic where to buy it, SRB would name it Maidin China.

User currently offlineCRJ900 From Norway, joined Jun 2004, 2172 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (8 years 5 months 1 week 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 2781 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Perhaps the Chinese airlines wish to be patriotic and buy the ARJ in huge numbers instead of buying from EMB or BBD or RRJ...


Come, fly the prevailing winds with me
User currently offlineAeronut From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 137 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (8 years 5 months 1 week 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 2751 times:

Quoting CRJ900 (Reply 22):
Perhaps the Chinese airlines wish to be patriotic and buy the ARJ in huge numbers instead of buying from EMB or BBD or RRJ...

They were supposed to be a major partner in the Bombardier C-Series. I wonder how much of what they learned from BBD will be incorporated into their own RJ program...


User currently offlinePlanemaker From Tuvalu, joined Aug 2003, 6122 posts, RR: 34
Reply 24, posted (8 years 5 months 1 week 17 hours ago) and read 2685 times:

Quoting Aeronut (Reply 23):
They were supposed to be a major partner in the Bombardier C-Series. I wonder how much of what they learned from BBD will be incorporated into their own RJ program...

They were never, nor were supposed to be, a major BBD partner. In any case, the ARJ was launched before the C-Series program was even unveiled.



Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
25 Aeronut : Got this article off of bloomberg.. Bombardier Inc. says it's in talks with China Aviation Industry Corp. I to produce parts for a new, larger jet, t
26 Rainmaker : Hello guys! Even though some of you find it hard to digest sometimes, I find it extremely amusing when any interesting topic gets heated debate. Anywa
27 Planemaker : I know that you read that but unfortunately it was just BBD BS that is fed to the news media. It is just like the reports on BBD investing in the RRJ
28 Post contains images F9Animal : Is it me, or did they change the design? I thought it used to look similar to a CRJ? Maybe that was the Russian built one. It sure looks darn close to
29 Post contains images RIX : - so? Does it mean that China has already "overtaken", say, Belgium? Or Sweden? A perfect example of senseless playing with numbers. - when my Scient
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